There has to be something more diabolical going on

JohnB445 said: ↑
I don't believe that God completely gave up Jews or Isreal.

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Only the Tribe of Judah is the Jews/Judeans.
Benjamin and Levi joined with Judah to make up the SouthernKingdom/Nation of Judah

Ezr 1:5
Then the family heads of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and Levites—everyone whose heart God had moved—prepared to go up and build the house of the LORD in Jerusalem.
Eze 48:22
So the property of the Levites and the property of the city will lie in the center of the area that belongs to the prince. The area belonging to the prince will lie between the border of Judah and the border of Benjamin.

Jerusalem appears to be right on the border between Benjamin and Judah.

You can click on each of those tribes at this link:

The Twelve Tribes of Israel

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Jesus gave up on the Jews after they had rejected him, and instead sought the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"; those poor of the land of the northern kingdom who remained in the region. The disciples (now apostles) were also sent only to them, as history confirms. The Jews might not be saved until the second resurrection and White Throne judgment period during the millennial rule of Christ. At that time they will become "one stick" with the saved of Israel.

shilohsfoal said:

Who is jesus speaking to in this verse?

Matthew 10:23 KJV: But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Jesus seems to be speaking to a specific group of people located in the land of israel.

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Indeed He is.
Scripture has the answer to your question as to what specific group of people he is speaking to here:

Matthew 10:1-2
10 And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

Matthew 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.

Matthew 10:23
23 When they persecute you [twelve apostles] in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you [twelve apostles], you [twelve apostles] will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.


Any interpretation that REMOVES these 12 apostles to whom Jesus is directly speaking to and COMMANDING, from direct, personal application of this passage, is wholly unscriptural and must be rejected by the honest Bible expositor.

JohnB445 said:

People of Jacob are the 144,000 from the 12 tribes.

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But can you name even one of them?

You also brought up Atheists and Muslims in this context.

I can name an atheist: Margaret Downey

I can name a Muslim: Dean Obeidallah

However, I can not name one single member of this "People of Jacob" that you speak of.

Can you?

If there are 144,000 of them running around earth TODAY, as appears to be your assertion, surely you could definitively name at least ONE of them, right?

BABerean2 said:

You seem to be promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine, which John Nelson Darby brought to America about the time of the Civil War.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24 the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart.

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Well said. There remains two people, of course. Those who reject Christ retain the Old Man, whereas those who accept the free gift are the New Man. OP is not making a two people doctrine in the body of Christ in my opinion. Just noting that 144,000 are saved and Jesus is coming back to save Israel when he lands on the Mt of Olives, splitting it asunder so Israel may escape in the newly created valley.

parousia70 said:

But can you name even one of them?

You also brought up Atheists and Muslims in this context.

I can name an atheist: Margaret Downey

I can name a Muslim: Dean Obeidallah

However, I can not name one single member of this "People of Jacob" that you speak of.

Can you?

If there are 144,000 of them running around earth TODAY, as appears to be your assertion, surely you could definitively name at least ONE of them, right?

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It is likely that not all are yet sealed. And yes, only God knows who they are, but they are certainly descendants of Israel (of whom not a seed shall fall to earth).

“The Jewish people are not a people like other nations, founded on the common denominators of residential area, family relations, origin or color. The followers of Abraham were instead a conglomeration of different people whose one common denominator was a shared ideological basis. This special group would later be called “Israel,” which is derived from the phrase “Yashar-El” Hebrew- straight to God, i.e. a desire directed straight to the power that manages reality.

Since then and throughout history, anyone who joined Jewish Israel on the basis of the same unifying principle was warmly welcomed. French, Italian, African, Japanese—anyone in the world—was and could be a Jew. Kabbalah explains that the Jewish people is not a nation like the other nations of the world, who all consist of a racial mixture. Jewishness is a unifying ideology, a person’s attitude toward others.

Although Jews have lived and married among themselves as a relatively small group over the generations and have acquired a similar attributes and distinctions, when the Ten Lost Tribes are revealed, it will not be the genes that will bind us, but the ideology. The external form of the Lost Tribes will surely appear different from who we see today as Jews, but between all of them will be a spirit of mutual solidarity combined with the love of Zion”. Quote:
Author: Dr Michael Laitman. A Jewish professor.


The Jewish Rabbi’s and leaders are perfectly aware that the Ten Northern tribes

remain separate from them and are still scattered among the nations. It is deceived Christians who attribute God’s favour to the Jews, as a tenet of the ‘rapture’ theory

We await the great Spiritual regeneration and rejoining of Messianic Judahites and Christian Israelites, as prophesied in Ezekiel 37

Bible teaching is unequivocal; ethnicity is of no consequence and never was. Aliens were always allowed to join with Israel.

The ‘ideology’ that all the Israelites of God will espouse, must be Christianity.
This truth is clear from how it is people from every tribe, race, nation and language, who will gather into all of Zion; the holy Land soon after the Sixth Seal event. Revelation 7:9-14, Isaiah 62:1-7, Ezekiel 34:11-16

The Lord’s faithful, born again Christians, being the people God always wanted in His holy Land, His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16

This scenario is proved by Jeremiah 12:13-16, where all the holy Land population is uprooted and only the faithful believers can live there. Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26, Psalms 37:29

AlexDTX said:

Well said. There remains two people, of course. Those who reject Christ retain the Old Man, whereas those who accept the free gift are the New Man. OP is not making a two people doctrine in the body of Christ in my opinion. Just noting that 144,000 are saved and Jesus is coming back to save Israel when he lands on the Mt of Olives, splitting it asunder so Israel may escape in the newly created valley.

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Based on the passage below, nobody will be saved at His Second Coming.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This agrees with the parable of the virgins from Matthew chapter 25.


Jesus said there is only one people of God.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Based on 1 John 2:22-23, those who reject the Son do not have the Father.
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JohnB445 said:

I don't believe that God completely gave up Jews or Isreal. I think there is a future plan and the 144,000 from the 12 tribes are the lucky people of Isreal that will be saved. Don't mistake this as me saying all Jews will be saved for simply being Jewish because that is not my claim. People of Jacob need the Gospel just as much as Muslims and atheists need the Gospel. The 144,000 from the 12 tribes the Elect still need to believe in their messiah.

For centuries people tried to exterminate the Jews, why? Because God has a plan for them. It seems apparently so.

What is replacement theology / supersessionism?

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Don't the 144K preach the gospel of the coming Millennial Kingdom which will be primarily for the nation of Israel as predicted in OT. Given that it will be during the tribulation time when Satan will be persecuting the favored nation they will need to be protected via a seal from GOD.

Near the End Times we will see a number of conversions from among the Jews

You will see that many who see the Church as the fulfillment of Israel will agree with you on this

Stone-n-Steel said:

Don't the 144K preach the gospel of the coming Millennial Kingdom which will be primarily for the nation of Israel as predicted in OT. Given that it will be during the tribulation time when Satan will be persecuting the favored nation they will need to be protected via a seal from GOD.

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You seem to have missed how Peter addressed the crowd on the Day of Pentecost.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

When the Church began almost all of its members were Israelites.
This is confirmed by Romans 11:1-5, and James 1:1-3.

The Gentiles were grafted in several years later.
See Galatians 1:14-18.

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BABerean2 said:

You seem to have missed how Peter addressed the crowd on the Day of Pentecost.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

When the Church began almost all of its members were Israelites.
This is confirmed by Romans 11:1-5, and James 1:1-3.

The Gentiles were grafted in several years later.
See Galatians 1:14-18.

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I read in Rom 11 that Israel is blinded until GOD finishes with the Gentiles.

Stone-n-Steel said:

I read in Rom 11 that Israel is blinded until GOD finishes with the Gentiles.

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That is not what the text says.
The text says part of the Israelites are blinded, and part are not blinded.
This is confirmed by the "remnant" in Romans 11:1-5, and Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 9:27.

Based on Luke 21:24-28, the times of the Gentiles comes to fullness at the Second Coming of Christ.

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BABerean2 said:

Based on the passage below, nobody will be saved at His Second Coming.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This agrees with the parable of the virgins from Matthew chapter 25.


Jesus said there is only one people of God.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Based on 1 John 2:22-23, those who reject the Son do not have the Father.
.

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A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. Paul Simon, The Boxer.

AlexDTX said:

Paul Simon, The Boxer.

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Normally we quote scripture on this forum, instead of boxers.

If you can show how people will be saved at the Second Coming, based on the context of 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and the parable of the virgins from Matthew chapter 25, feel free to do so...

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JohnB445 said:

I don't believe that God completely gave up Jews or Isreal. I think there is a future plan and the 144,000 from the 12 tribes are the lucky people of Isreal that will be saved. Don't mistake this as me saying all Jews will be saved for simply being Jewish because that is not my claim. People of Jacob need the Gospel just as much as Muslims and atheists need the Gospel. The 144,000 from the 12 tribes the Elect still need to believe in their messiah.

For centuries people tried to exterminate the Jews, why? Because God has a plan for them. It seems apparently so.

What is replacement theology / supersessionism?

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The problem with this eschatology is that it is only good for those who live during the supposed dispensational view of the 7 year tribulation period. It leaves out all the other Jews for the past 2000 plus years that rejected Christ. If God has a plan for the unrepentant Jew, it would have to encompass all of them which means you believe in the John Hagee , " all Jews are saved" no matter what. This is not only not true..see Old testament, but it is unjust and leading the chosen people to the wide road of destruction. Has God "given up"?? NO . Jesus Christ of Nazareth came out of their loins and if they chose/choose not to accept Him as their Messiah, it has certainly come with great sorrow. See Christ's LAMENT.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

parousia70 said:

Indeed He is.
Scripture has the answer to your question as to what specific group of people he is speaking to here:

Matthew 10:1-2
10 And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

Matthew 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.

Matthew 10:23
23 When they persecute you [twelve apostles] in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you [twelve apostles], you [twelve apostles] will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.


Any interpretation that REMOVES these 12 apostles to whom Jesus is directly speaking to and COMMANDING, from direct, personal application of th kmis passage, is wholly unscriptural and must be rejected by the honest Bible expositor.

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Since you claim Jesus came while the 12 apostles were yet alive,what was the exact date(month ,day,year)he returned and did the resurrection take place on that day as he promised?
Do you know ofany eye witnesses that have testified of Christs second advent?

Ps,did the twelve remain in israel andnot go to the gentiles as jesus comanded those in the passage?

JohnB445 said:

Nobody knows who they are, 144,000 during the end times tribulation that come from the Line of Jacob will be redeemed.

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So one of them could be you?