Scapegoat

Dave-W · Dec 14, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
tell that to John who says

And he is the propitiation/atonement for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Sins of the individuals of the whole world. That is not the nation(s).

DennisTate · Dec 14, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
Leviticus 16:5-10
5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering. 6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house. 7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD’S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Leviticus 16:15-22
15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: 16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. 18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about. 19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: 21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Lets take a look at the two goats and who they represent.

Take note of what it says in verse 5 two kids of the goats for a sin offering. The two goats constituted ONE sin offering. Therefore the two goats represent ONE man , JESUS CHRIST.

So lets look at how both goats represent Jesus Christ.

. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD’S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
10But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

The first goat shows us that Jesus Christ died for our sins, the scapegoat shows us that Jesus Christ made atonement for us and now we stand without sin before God in Christ. The scapegoat shows us that we are resurrected with Christ. The reason that two goats were used was because the one goat was killed (Jesus Christ dying on the cross) and one goat (the scapegoat) represents the resurrected Lord, for Jesus Christ must both die and be resurrected in order for our atonement.

Nu.29:11 speaks of this.

Numbers 29:11
11ONE kid of the goats for a SIN OFFERING; beside the SIN OFFERING of ATONEMENT, and the continual burnt offering, and the meat offering of it, and their drink offerings.

Heb.9:15-28 brings this out very well, lets look at it.

Hebrews 9:15-28
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Note that there is only ONE sacrifice mentioned here , not two, the two goats represent Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The word PROPITIATION means ATONEMENT , and the goat killed and the scapegoat was for the ATONEMENT of the world. This show us that the two goats are a representation of Jesus Christ.

John 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKETH AWAY the sin of the world.

This clearly show that the two goats in reference to Jesus Christ, and as the scapegoat took the sins of all upon its head, even as our head (Jesus Christ) took the sins of all upon himself.

You cannot separate the two goats, they must represent the same person or you make someone other than Jesus Christ our ATONEMENT.

Leviticus 16:30

For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

Very interesting indeed!

I had thought that the "goat for Azazel" also referred to Barabbas / Bar Abbas who was released. I felt that each of us needs to come to the place where we regard our own sins as up there with the sins of the notable prisoner Barabbas / Bar Abbas who had committed murder and led a revolt.

I think that my pride..... my tendency to be self-righteous and Laodicean / lukewarm ..... is a very serious sin that can infect others.

DennisTate · Dec 14, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
so according to you then Satan is the second goat and is our atonement.

As ONE goat could not be a representation of both life and death two goats were use to represent ONE sacrifice.

This is a intriguing idea I must admit???!

Yom Kippur/The Rapture connection?!

jamesbond007 · Dec 14, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
Leviticus 16:5-10
5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering. 6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house. 7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD’S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Leviticus 16:15-22
15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: 16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. 18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about. 19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: 21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Lets take a look at the two goats and who they represent.

Take note of what it says in verse 5 two kids of the goats for a sin offering. The two goats constituted ONE sin offering. Therefore the two goats represent ONE man , JESUS CHRIST.

So lets look at how both goats represent Jesus Christ.

. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD’S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
10But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

The first goat shows us that Jesus Christ died for our sins, the scapegoat shows us that Jesus Christ made atonement for us and now we stand without sin before God in Christ. The scapegoat shows us that we are resurrected with Christ. The reason that two goats were used was because the one goat was killed (Jesus Christ dying on the cross) and one goat (the scapegoat) represents the resurrected Lord, for Jesus Christ must both die and be resurrected in order for our atonement.

Nu.29:11 speaks of this.

Numbers 29:11
11ONE kid of the goats for a SIN OFFERING; beside the SIN OFFERING of ATONEMENT, and the continual burnt offering, and the meat offering of it, and their drink offerings.

Heb.9:15-28 brings this out very well, lets look at it.

Hebrews 9:15-28
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Note that there is only ONE sacrifice mentioned here , not two, the two goats represent Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The word PROPITIATION means ATONEMENT , and the goat killed and the scapegoat was for the ATONEMENT of the world. This show us that the two goats are a representation of Jesus Christ.

John 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKETH AWAY the sin of the world.

This clearly show that the two goats in reference to Jesus Christ, and as the scapegoat took the sins of all upon its head, even as our head (Jesus Christ) took the sins of all upon himself.

You cannot separate the two goats, they must represent the same person or you make someone other than Jesus Christ our ATONEMENT.

Leviticus 16:30

For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

Interesting. Thanks for the patient explanation. After examining, I think you are right about the two goats, but have one question. Why was the goat that was sent away treated as "unclean" if it represented Jesus?

Ing Bee · Dec 14, 2018

Ken Rank said:
Agreed on both... and I would suggest that Azazel, where the sin of Israel is symbolically heaped, is a picture of satan rather than messiah. The idea being that the sin goes back to where it came and then is driven away for good.

Yes, in second temple literature, Azazel is one of the bene elohim complicit in the "daughters of men" marrying the bene elohim (sons of God) in Genesis 6. He is accursed and is associated with desert places.

If anyone is interested, Dr. Michael Heiser's The Unseen Realm and Reversing Hermon include discussions of the relevant literature.

Ken Rank · Dec 14, 2018

Hammster said:
Actually, the question was could it be something other than that.

Ah, sorry Hammy. In that case, I would think my answer is no.

Ken Rank · Dec 14, 2018

Dave-W said:
You have no idea how accurate their oral tradition was. It was extremely accurate; way beyond anything today.

The problem is, most people don't really understand what their oral tradition is. If they took the time to study it, they would come to understand the truth in what you said.

Hammster · Dec 14, 2018

Ken Rank said:
Ah, sorry Hammy. In that case, I would think my answer is no.

So every time “world” is used it has the same definition? That will make for some interesting reading.

redleghunter · Dec 15, 2018

Hammster said:
You should probably do a study on “world” and the various ways John uses the word.

Yes I believe John 3:16 qualified “world” as those who believe in Him. So there’s a distinction there.

We must be mindful most of the NT was to a mix of Jewish and Gentile believers. The Jewish believers would be of the opinion the promises of Messiah were for Israel and not Gentiles. So by using terms as “all” and “world” John and Paul would be making the point those two terms meant Christ is the savior for all peoples. Meaning not just Jews.

I believe this is confirmed at the Council of Jerusalem where certain Jews wanted Gentiles to be circumcised and follow the Law of Moses. They believed only the promises belonged to Jews and those who “become” Jews. So there was a certain cultural bias and the apostles dealt with it by using no uncertain terms as “all” and “world.”

redleghunter · Dec 15, 2018

Dave-W said:
Read all about it in the Talmuds.

Keep forgetting this one. Should do better to fend off the privy demons.

The "demon of the privy" (Sheid beit ha-Kisset) appears also in the Babylonian Talmud:

The Rabbis taught: On coming from a privy a man should not have sexual intercourse till he has waited long enough to walk half a mil,

— [2] because the demon of the privy is with him for that time; if he does, his children will be epileptic.[3]

Šulak - Wikipedia

redleghunter · Dec 15, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
I own 3 Hebrew bibles with commentary and not one of them says this.

What they do say however is that azazel is a god that accepted as property the sins as a sacrifice to himself.

So do you believe in a god called azazel?

So much for the traditions of men

I think he is pulling our leg.

redleghunter · Dec 15, 2018

jamesbond007 said:
Interesting. Thanks for the patient explanation. After examining, I think you are right about the two goats, but have one question. Why was the goat that was sent away treated as "unclean" if it represented Jesus?

Perhaps because if carried the sins?

DamianWarS · Dec 15, 2018

Ken Rank said:
I know, the picture of life and death is good one and preaches well. But...

Lev. 16:6 Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering for himself and shall make atonement for himself and for his house. 7 Then he shall take the two goats and set them before the Lord at the entrance of the tent of meeting. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots over the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other lot for Azazel. 9 And Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the Lord and use it as a sin offering, 10 but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.

Many bibles translate the bold "as a scapegoat," it is the Hebrew la-azazel. The "la" prefix is for or of... and Azazel... so "for Azazel." This goat is case away, out of the congregation, away from the community... not to be a part of Israel. So I get the picture but sin originated with satan and will be heaped back upon him when we are perfected... an event we all await for.

all hebrew words have meaning and there is no word that existed without a direct common meaning, this is true for names as well, and Azazel is no different. The word is from EZ = goat (H5795) and AZAL = sent away (H235). Scapegoat is actually a good translation.

the passage does say one is "for Yahweh" and one is "for Azazel" so based on the text Yahweh/Azazel do seem to be contrasted which could lead to this idea that Azazel is a proper name that is the antithesis of Yahweh so this Azazel could not be Christ. But the passage seems to call the goat both by the word azazel and for azazel. Perhaps the former is a role and the latter some sort of euphemistic word for the enemy because obviously we don't sent sins to God.

there are 2 goats, one is a sin offering and the other for atonement. Atonement as per Christianity is about reconciliation between God and man through Christ, so if any of the goats point to Christ then the scapegoat certainly should be one as it is about atonement but also the sin offering goat or the Goat for the Yahweh points to Christ.

Sin is an ugly thing and Christ had to take upon all sin and be a sin offering being without sin, so worthy for the sin offering, yet carried all sin at the same time so he occupied both roles together. The sins put upon Christ for atonement are not for Yahweh, the sin offering is for Yahweh, but the sins upon Christ are for Azazel or the goat sent away. The result was subsequent death and Jesus in the grave for 3 days. When he resurrected he no longer carried the sins and atonement was accomplished so wherever Christ went he seems to have been effectively carried away these sins.

Hebrew confirms this of course
"But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins ... we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Heb 10:3-4,10)

mmksparbud · Dec 15, 2018

Scapegoat

The scapegoat carried the sin of the people away with it, thereby cleansing Israel for another year.
The English scapegoat is a compound of the archaic verb scape, which means "escape," and goat, and is modeled on a misreading of the Hebrew ʽazāzēl (which is probably the name of a demon) as ʽēz 'ōzēl , "the goat that departs." More modern translations render scapegoat in this text as Azazel, but the misreading endured and has entered the lexicon.
History and Etymology for scapegoat
Noun
scape entry 1; intended as translation of Hebrew ʽazāzēl (probably name of a demon), as if ʽēz 'ōzēl goat that departs—Leviticus 16:8 (King James Version)
Definition of SCAPEGOAT

Tyndale translated the word Asazel into "escape goat"--over time, the e was dropped.

It is now generally accepted that Tyndale got his translation of the Hebrew sources wrong. He misread ʿăzāzel' in the original and translated it as 'ez ozel', literally 'the goat that departs' or ‘the goote on which the lotte fell to scape’. Later scholars corrected the mistake and 'scapegoat' doesn't appear in the Revised Version of 1884, which has ‘Azazel’ as a proper name in the text, but by that time the word had already been established as a commonplace word. So commonplace in fact that, in the way that 'gate' is now added to form the name for any scandal, the 18th century gave us 'scape-horses', 'scape-rats' and 'scape-geese'.
'Scapegoat' - the meaning and origin of this word

Ken Rank · Dec 15, 2018

Hammster said:
So every time “world” is used it has the same definition? That will make for some interesting reading.

Not at all. In THAT verse the context is,very clear. I am saying it can only mean that in THAT verse. If you have a verse with world in it in another verse share it, we would look at it individually.

jamesbond007 · Dec 15, 2018

redleghunter said:
Perhaps because if carried the sins?

What do you mean by "carried?" There is the “substitutionary atonement,” but that has to be in blood with the first goat. The second could be the knowledge of the sins. If Jesus reviews one's life at Final Judgment, then you're going to see your sins flashing by you. Some would have been forgotten and some of them you will remember. I suppose it's emotional pains and scars, too.

If the scapegoat was Satan, then he'd probably enjoy it and take it away like it was gold coins or something valuable.

ETA: Also, I think the first goat had to be clean. Just like Jesus. In other words, Jesus was perfect. He was without sin. This is supposed to be Adam, but he failed.

Hammster · Dec 15, 2018

Ken Rank said:
Not at all. In THAT verse the context is,very clear. I am saying it can only mean that in THAT verse. If you have a verse with world in it in another verse share it, we would look at it individually.

Grammatically, is that the only use of the word?

I don’t think that the wrath of God is satisfied against every person who ever lived. So the context does NOT support it. It does support the use I proposed that John meant people from every tongue, tribe, and nation.

Ken Rank · Dec 16, 2018

Hammster said:
Grammatically, is that the only use of the word?

I don’t think that the wrath of God is satisfied against every person who ever lived. So the context does NOT support it. It does support the use I proposed that John meant people from every tongue, tribe, and nation.

All I am saying is, in that verse, it is saying his work is sufficient for all people for all time.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

World = kosmos, it is Greek and means ornaments (as in Ezekiel 23:40 in the LXX), universe, world, Earth and it's inhabitants, world affairs and a few other words not relevant to this discussion.

Of the possible words, only world or universe really fit here. The reason I believe it is for all time is because of verses like Romans 8:22 ("the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now") as that verse infers an ongoing "panging" that continues today. We also have verses like 2 Cor 5:15 (" He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again") where "all" is "pas" in Greek, which means, "all, any, every, the whole." But beyond me listing off verses, since Yeshua is the way, the truth, and the life and nobody gets to the Father save through the work He did, then we can't say that Abraham, David and others like them get in a different way when Yeshua was clear he was the only way. Since Abraham, David and others are called fathers, brethren and other terms that make them part of the same family to which we belong. We can't read Hebrews 11 knowing the just live(d) by faith and not include those listed as brothers... and therefore, the context of the bible is the work of messiah is applied to all for all time. Those that believe and those who looked forward to the redemption that would come. That all, applied to 1 John 2:2 leads me to believe that 'world' is the planet, it's inhabitants, the universe, and all who ever lived.

Biblical context is we fell and then prophecies began to mount speaking of a coming redemption for the fall. It might have happened 4000 years later, and we look back 2000 years from today... but that event was the event necessary to reverse the curse of sin and death for all who ever lived. The God of love, peace and joy didn't send His son to only save those born after 33AD, and leave off 4000 years of servants and worshipers because they were born on the wrong side of the timeline. His work is once for ALL... and thus the 2 John verse has to fit into that that context. The use of kosmos elsewhere should be taken on a case by case basis.

Hammster · Dec 16, 2018

Ken Rank said:
All I am saying is, in that verse, it is saying his work is sufficient for all people for all time.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

World = kosmos, it is Greek and means ornaments (as in Ezekiel 23:40 in the LXX), universe, world, Earth and it's inhabitants, world affairs and a few other words not relevant to this discussion.

Of the possible words, only world or universe really fit here. The reason I believe it is for all time is because of verses like Romans 8:22 ("the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now") as that verse infers an ongoing "panging" that continues today. We also have verses like 2 Cor 5:15 (" He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again") where "all" is "pas" in Greek, which means, "all, any, every, the whole." But beyond me listing off verses, since Yeshua is the way, the truth, and the life and nobody gets to the Father save through the work He did, then we can't say that Abraham, David and others like them get in a different way when Yeshua was clear he was the only way. Since Abraham, David and others are called fathers, brethren and other terms that make them part of the same family to which we belong. We can't read Hebrews 11 knowing the just live(d) by faith and not include those listed as brothers... and therefore, the context of the bible is the work of messiah is applied to all for all time. Those that believe and those who looked forward to the redemption that would come. That all, applied to 1 John 2:2 leads me to believe that 'world' is the planet, it's inhabitants, the universe, and all who ever lived.

Biblical context is we fell and then prophecies began to mount speaking of a coming redemption for the fall. It might have happened 4000 years later, and we look back 2000 years from today... but that event was the event necessary to reverse the curse of sin and death for all who ever lived. The God of love, peace and joy didn't send His son to only save those born after 33AD, and leave off 4000 years of servants and worshipers because they were born on the wrong side of the timeline. His work is once for ALL... and thus the 2 John verse has to fit into that that context. The use of kosmos elsewhere should be taken on a case by case basis.

The problem is that it doesn’t say that His work is sufficient for all people. I agree that it is. What it says is that He is a propitiation for the whole world. Propitiation means that God’s wrath is satisfied. If it’s satified against all sin, then there is no reason that any should be sent to hell. It would be unjust. But we know that His wrath remains on some (John 3:36). So you can’t have His wrath both remaining on some while at the same time be satisfied against all.

Ken Rank · Dec 16, 2018

Hammster said:
The problem is that it doesn’t say that His work is sufficient for all people. I agree that it is. What it says is that He is a propitiation for the whole world. Propitiation means that God’s wrath is satisfied. If it’s satified against all sin, then there is no reason that any should be sent to hell. It would be unjust. But we know that His wrath remains on some (John 3:36). So you can’t have His wrath both remaining on some while at the same time be satisfied against all.

We don't disagree... we're just going to end up saying the same or similar things using words we are more comfortable with. The bottom line is that sin entered the world by a man (Adam) and was addressed by the second Adam which takes His work back to the first Adam. So sin "for all time" is included in that concept. Now, I don't believe all people are saved, I am not a universalist, but of those who looked forward to His coming or at least the work God would one day do, and those who now look back at the work that was done... are all part of the same family.

Blessings.
Ken

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