What are some examples of losing salvation?

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SkyWriting

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Can you please answer my questions in post number 14?
I just explained that people can turn away from Gods free gift.
If wouldn't be free if they needed to earn it.
But if they refuse the free gift of salvation, through Jesus, that is a shame. Oh well.

29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
 
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BNR32FAN

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This is true. Faith is the pudding, obedience is the proof. Thus the proof is in the pudding.
It's not saying by the individual's will alone his is her salvation is being enacted, but by the grace being bestowed upon the person.

So all the "Ifs" are not a matter of personal works or achievements, but a privilege afforded by the matter of His gift of unmerited grace that allows one to be faithful:
-If you remain in Me and my words remain in you - John 15:7
-If you walk in the light, as He is in the Light - 1John1:7
-if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you - Romans 8:9
-if we obey his commands - 1John2:3
-If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself. -2Tim2:11-13

and so on and so forth.

I politely disagree. John 15:4

John 15:4

4 remain in me, and I in you, as the branch is not able to bear fruit of itself, if it may not remain in the vine, so neither ye, if ye may not remain in me.

Verse 4 Jesus says as a commandment remain in me. Why give a commandment to someone who has no control over their actions?
 
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BNR32FAN

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I just explained that people can turn away from Gods free gift.
If wouldn't be free if they needed to earn it.
But if they refuse the free gift of salvation, that is a shame. Oh well.

Perhaps I misread your post last night friend. God bless:)
 
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SkyWriting

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I once believed in eternal security and defended it passionately until I began to see scriptures like John 15 that don’t add up. When I looked at the other side of the argument I realized the passages that appeared to support eternal security actually can’t be without contradicting other scriptures. The more I studied and compiling a more comprehensive understanding of the Bible the more eternal security didn’t make sense. John 15 is probably the most powerful scripture I’ve seen refuting eternal security, Calvinism, and Luther’s understanding of faith alone. Please understand I was very reluctant to disprove eternal security. It meant I had to recant all the discussions where I defended eternal security and tell people who I debated against that they were right and I was wrong all along. But first and foremost I am a truth seeker and I must proclaim the truth of God’s word. I would much rather humble myself and admit my mistakes than mislead someone from the truth of God’s word.

God exists outside of time, so timing is never an issue for God and your salvation.
 
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SkyWriting

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I politely disagree. John 15:4

John 15:4

4 remain in me, and I in you, as the branch is not able to bear fruit of itself, if it may not remain in the vine, so neither ye, if ye may not remain in me.

Verse 4 Jesus says as a commandment remain in me. Why give a commandment to someone who has no control over their actions?

They have control over acceptance of God's gift. According to God's plan.
 
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Roidecoeur78

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I politely disagree. John 15:4

John 15:4

4 remain in me, and I in you, as the branch is not able to bear fruit of itself, if it may not remain in the vine, so neither ye, if ye may not remain in me.

Verse 4 Jesus says as a commandment remain in me. Why give a commandment to someone who has no control over their actions?

It is for the ones that are bound to endure, the true elect. Those peculiarly His own, called to live apart from the world, the number and identity of which only He and the Son know. Because either God is sovereign over His creation or He would not be what He is. Any god that is not sovereign is not The true and living God.

"One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?"- Romans 9:19-24
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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I once believed in eternal security and defended it passionately until I began to see scriptures like John 15 that don’t add up. When I looked at the other side of the argument I realized the passages that appeared to support eternal security actually can’t be without contradicting other scriptures. The more I studied and compiling a more comprehensive understanding of the Bible the more eternal security didn’t make sense. John 15 is probably the most powerful scripture I’ve seen refuting eternal security, Calvinism, and Luther’s understanding of faith alone. Please understand I was very reluctant to disprove eternal security. It meant I had to recant all the discussions where I defended eternal security and tell people who I debated against that they were right and I was wrong all along. But first and foremost I am a truth seeker and I must proclaim the truth of God’s word. I would much rather humble myself and admit my mistakes than mislead someone from the truth of God’s word.
Perseverance of the saints is the biblical teaching.
People are not saved and lost at the Same time.
If a person understands biblical salvation they will not be confused about jn15
 
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Oldmantook

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This topic has so many variables that it almost makes it impossible to discern. I guess the key question, that is equally hard, is are we saved at first belief or are we saved through persevered faith. Personally I don't think a true follower of Christ can lose salvation, but it is possible for people we perceive to be true followers to fall away. We can't really say that you are saved by persevered faith because you have the example of the thief. However, we also have the example of satan falling away while having full belief. Granted, satan may not of had the HS inside of him, but he had full knowledge of God and still choose to abandon his position in the kingdom. I don't know what the answer is, but who in their right mind would choose to walk away?
The example of the thief is a unique situation. He died hanging on the cross - so his time of persevering was quite short. That would be like someone coming to genuine faith on their death bed. However, someone who has a longer life span left after coming to faith has plenty of time to walk away - if they so choose.
 
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112358

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The problem with perseverance and election are that they logically and inevitably lead to a God that has created beings in His own likeness for the purpose of eternal destruction. That is not the God of the Bible, and those are not Biblical doctrines.
 
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Kenny'sID

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We are saved by grace and walk by grace. The entire book of Romans and Galatians pays homage to that. Salvation is a work of God (ephesians 2;8-9), and those who believe in the finished work of Jesus are declared righteous not by virtue of their continous good works but what Christ has already done (this is the message of justification and reconciliation). There is nothing one can do to earn salvation and therefore nothing to lose it. Eternal life is a GIFT of God;

The famous verse John 3:16 says,' For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that WHOEVER BELIEVES in Him SHALL not perish but have eternal Life." The issue is belief or faith. The kind of faith that saves is mentioned in Hebrews 11.

Salvation includes conversion into a new creation (2 Cor 5:17), redemption or a price is paid with the blood of Jesus (1 Peter 1;18-19), justification which is by faith alone (Romans 5;1, 3:24-28), glorification (Romans 8:1), sealing with the Holy spirit (ephesians 1:13-14) and sanctification till we meet our Lord.

salvation is a gift of God and can't be lost because God's gifts are irrevocable:Romans 11;29.

Some here say we can lie cheat steal, and even kill on a regular basis and remain saved...do you agree with that?

And before anyone tries to rely on the "those were never saved to begin with"
You'll need to prove that first.
 
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MDC

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No one believes that consuming a wafer saves anyone. What we believe is that man is defied by consuming the literal flesh and blood of Christ through fervent prayer not witchcraft, and that this consumption gives on the power no not fall away from Christ.

Matthew 10:22: "...he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

John 15:6: "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up , thrown into the fire and burned."

1 Corinthians 15-2: "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain."

Galatians 6:8-9: "The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time, we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."

2 Timothy 2:12: "If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us."

Hebrews 6:4-6: "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the son of God afresh and put him to an open shame."

Hebrews 10:26: "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."

2 Peter 2:20-21: "For if after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered onto them."


No further debate needed
So consuming the Eucharist is necessary for salvation?
 
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aiki

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Actually that is incorrect my friend. Please take a closer look at the definition pertaining to something that is attached.

I have looked at what "airo" means very carefully. As far as I can see, my comments are in no way defeated by what you've posted concerning the word. The basic meaning of the verb is, as I already pointed out, "to lift." This is why "airo" is translated "take up" more often than in any other way (32 times) in Scripture. Such a reading certainly better fits with what both Christ and his disciples would have understood about the practices of vinedressers of the time. Nothing you've offered in reply does anything to negate or defeat this fact and the import of it to how John 15:2 ought to be translated.

John 15:1-6, then, is not a knock-down passage in favour of a saved-and-lost doctrine. Far from it, actually.
 
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Roidecoeur78

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The problem with perseverance and election are that they logically and inevitably lead to a God that has created beings in His own likeness for the purpose of eternal destruction. That is not the God of the Bible, and those are not Biblical doctrines.

Depends on which verses one reads, or reads around.

Those things that God has ordained include also the eternal salvation of His people, thus leaving the rest of mankind eternally damned. In Romans 9:13, Paul uses the example of Jacob and Esau to demonstrate that salvation and damnation are the results of His sovereign choice. From eternity past, God permitted Esau’s (and the rest of humanity’s) fall into destruction.

The old testament God didn't go anywhere, or get replaced by the new testament. He is the same forever. Still hates sin, sinners, the wicked, evil, Satan, et al, and, even in the new testament "our God is an all-consuming fire."(Hebrews 12:29). The new testament declares those that will escape His wrath are the ones granted grace through Christ, leading to holiness that will not be judged. Thus they will not experience these other new testament declarations: "the elements will be dissolved in the fire, and the earth and its works will not be found. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to conduct yourselves in holiness and godliness" (2 Peter 3:10-11) and "the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly." (2 Peter 3:7)

Again:
Romans 9:14–24
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For zwho can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory

Vessels are made and prepared and fitted for one particular end or another. Will one of us tell Him what He may or may not do, or should or should not do, with His creation?
 
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JacksBratt

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Brother that still doesn’t answer the question why does Jesus warn His 11 faithful apostles to abide if they cannot fail to abide. Why is he warning them not to do something that is impossible?
IDK.. But I do know that even while I am saved and live my life in constant attempt to live as Christ and not sin............ I still sin.

Are you telling me that I lose my salvation.. regain it.... lose it..... regain it.... lose it.....regain it....... in a continual ping pong match of salvation and lost soul? Seriously?

I challenge anyone here to state that they are a Christian........and live without sin.

We all live with sin in our lives.. It is impossible to not live that way. Christian or not.

Many non Christians behave better than Christians.... Are you going to say that their "works" are the fruit of proof that they are doing Christ's work... even though they outwardly and publicly proclaim that there is no God?

No, every human that walks this earth can be divided into two distinct categories..

Those that do not believe that Christ is their savior or that God even exists... Basically denial of Christ and His work.

and

Those that believe that Christ is their savior and have accepted the gift of salvation.

Ya.... I know.. we as humans like to think that we can point at any person and say.... Christian..or non Christian...based on our human, worldly and finite information and knowledge.

But... we cannot... Only God knows the heart.

There are going to be a lot of surprised people when the roll is called up yonder.
There will be that grumpy old codger that lived in the broken down house and grumbled all the time... sitting at the feet of Jesus. Why? Because he had issues that you and I cannot fathom, understand or judge.... But, to Jesus.. he believed in Christ and was Christ's child.


There will also be that generous man that gave the best halloween candy and had the biggest Christmas decorations.. He gave to every charity and volunteered at every function.... But... never believed in Christ. Never accepted that he was a sinner... NO... He was good... really good.. and "there is not just God that would put me in hell.... I'm too giving, generous and kind to not be allowed"... Meanwhile... he is doing it all on his own..

To a person looking at them.... they would not be able to tell what God can see on the inside.
 
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JIMINZ

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Another example Matthew 25:31-46. Why were the goats condemned? Many people say it is because they were not true believers. But that is not mentioned in the passage. Jesus specifically says exactly why they were condemned in verses 42 & 43.

“For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:42-43‬

The goats did not produce fruit. They didn’t abide in Christ.

If you would take the time to read what you are attempting to teach, you would (should) see The Goats didn't abide in Christ BECAUSE, they never were in Christ.

The Goats if you took the time to investigate, were the Jews, the Nation (People) of Israel, that is who Jesus was speaking about.

The old saying is your comparing apples and oranges, well let me paraphrase,

"Your combining Goats and Branches" the two do not go together.

Your saying the Goats were Believers (Christians) the verses say that the Goats "did it not for the least of these."

Mat 25:45
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Things become clearer, when you take the time to read and understand things rather than just parroting what you have been taught something says.

You might say who were "the least of these."

Mat. 25:40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

The Goats were the Jews, The King is Jesus, and the least of these my brethren, well they were the Christians.

Goats do not produce fruit because, they were not branches in the vine.
Your mixing what Jesus said about the vine and fruit, and a Prophesy together, trying to teach they both say the same thing.....sorry they don't.
 
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JIMINZ

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So if that is the case, then you would have no problem accepting the mark of the beast. Not saying that you would, but you would not lose your salvation if you did - based upon your doctrine.

That is just a ridiculous statement to make.
 
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ToServe

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Read those verses as a motif, meaning a dominant theme whereby salvation may be attained.

In Hebrews 9 did you take note of what was said in verse 12?

Heb 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Your emphasis on one verse alone without any consideration to the verse following is why you collapse the context on the verse you quoted.

Jesus is described as our High Priest who entered the Holy of Holies with his own blood.

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

How one purges their conscience from dead works to serve the living God through the eternal Holy Spirit and within the New Testament Temple, is by them offering the Daily Sacrifice that is acceptable to God through Christ. Read Romans 12:1 and 1 Peter 2:5 and understand that to serve the living God we are continually offering onto him our bodies as a living sacrifice through the eternal Spirit of God. This is an ongoing process that is life-long and is a process of being born again according to John 3:5. It certainly doesn't happen overnight or instantly during the water baptism of the subject who has been justified by the Blood of Christ. The Sanctification leg is to death and the evidence of faith in Christ is the post-mortem spiritual state of the subject in complying with Christ's saying "Be faithful unto death and I will give you a crown of life".

1) He has obtained. Is there any stipulation anywhere, as to when Redemption will be applied?

The works of Christ are finished as Jesus stated on the Cross, yet the redemption side applied is a Daily Sacrifice serving works of the subject in progress and through the eternal Holy Spirit, within the life of the subject who has been justified by the Blood of Christ.

2) Eternal. The Definition has been supplied above.

Eternal means always available to the subject, but by no means in context does it mean eternal within the question of salvation ratified for the subject from the time of being justified.

3) Redemption.

Redemption is an ongoing action verb that points to the ongoing works to serve the living God through the eternal Spirit, by purging our conscience from dead works.

This points to sanctification which is a life-long works to serve the living God by offerng ourselves as a living sacrifice and this is the Daily Sacrifice that is acceptible to God as explained in Romans 12:1 and 1 Peter 2:5.

Therefore the Redemption having been Obtained for us by Christ, has been applied to us during Baptism, and is Eternal from the time of receiving.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

This is describing an ongoing process within Paul's entire life-long sanctification through the eternal Holy Spirit. It certainly is not a done deal at baptism. Read 2 Timothy 4:6-8 and understand how Paul describes it as a race of faith, finished only post-mortem, that is on that day, by which he anticipates that the righteous Judge will award him his crown of life as he kept the faith works in serving the living God onto death.
 
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ToServe

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Postmortem seems to be a very big sticking point with you.

Yes and not to me, but to the Apostles and Jesus too.

2) Do you not know you are dead to the Flesh?

When? and How?

How could a justified by the Blood subject be dead to the flesh if they continue living by a mind governed by the flesh (Romans 8), because dead to the flesh is conditional upon the subjects future actions within the New Testament Temple, that involves an ongoing process of offering oneself as a living sacrifice through the Spirit, owing to a mind governed by the Spirit?

When could that be finally ratified that this is what a faithful servant has achieved in their lifetime? Because they carried their cross onto their very graves post-mortem, thereby successfully finishing their race of faith and in full expectation that they are waiting to be judged post-mortem to receive what the righteous Lord has in store for them post-mortem and not within this temporal lifetime, because this temporal life is a testing ground, that is a probationary phase for the prisoners of Christ.

3) Do you not know you are crucified with Christ and raised with His Resurrection.

It is a verb in continuous action and certainly not one that is reporting a done deal while the Testator liveth (Hebrews 9:15-7). The Testator must die and only post-mortem can judgement render onto them their eternal life and not before.

You Are Dead!.... He has determined we made the cut Postmortem, our Salvation has been guaranteed Postmortem.

We are not yet post-mortem until we give up our breath like Jesus did and only then can we be raised as he was. Jesus died and so we all must biologically die whilst keeping his faith alive in us through the serving works of the eternal Spirit of God.
 
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redleghunter

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If you would take the time to read what you are attempting to teach, you would (should) see The Goats didn't abide in Christ BECAUSE, they never were in Christ.

The Goats if you took the time to investigate, were the Jews, the Nation (People) of Israel, that is who Jesus was speaking about.

The old saying is your comparing apples and oranges, well let me paraphrase,

"Your combining Goats and Branches" the two do not go together.

Your saying the Goats were Believers (Christians) the verses say that the Goats "did it not for the least of these."
Good points. I'm still waiting for a response to an inquiry on the discourse of the True Vine as it applied, exegetically speaking, to the actual apostles. You know the men who undoubtedly loved our Lord yet cut and run when their was armed opposition. And Peter denying the Lord three times just hours after this discourse. What I asked is if that Vine discourse applies to us today (of course it does) and it teaches loss of salvation (which I don't think it does), then the apostles themselves lost salvation "no longer clean" that very night and Peter apostatized. I don't believe that for a minute, they lost their salvation, but we today are to believe that applies to us and not them? Just some questions when you touch the exegetical button a bit.

But what we do learn is Christ preserved His apostles, His sheep and did not let them perish.
 
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JIMINZ

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Yes, but salvation has not yet been attained in this temporal life, but is only determined post mortem, where Christ judges a servant either as good or as wicked.

If a person has been promised that he would receive his Salvation when he dies physically and goes to Heaven, hasn't he in essence RECEIVED his Salvation?

If the physical body cannot be changed until physical death, the Spiritual body is all that is missing.

The Salvation has therefore already been attained for us by Christ.
 
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