How Do you Define Sola Fide (Faith Alone) and is it Biblical?

mark kennedy · Dec 14, 2018

Ken Rank said:
I know he does Mark, thank you for reminding me though. Blessings.

That wasn't a rebuke, I'm just saying, I think his emphasis on repentance is important. There is just this odd kind of hang up he has on works that could be reconciled but he has a strange foreboding of Calvinism that I think is ill founded.

redleghunter · Dec 14, 2018

Jason0047 said:
But you are saying that a person is a true believer because God made them that way.

We are His workmanship. It was Paul who said that and I quoted him.

Jason0047 said:
God chooses some to be saved and He chooses others not to be saved.

Jesus said many are called but few are chosen. We are all by nature heading to the Lake of Fire condemned. God saves many. Why He is called Savior.

Jason0047 said:
They had no choice in the matter.

Of course we all do. But we operate our choices from our natures. If we are still dead in our sins and don’t have ears to hear we will keep choosing death. If we have ears to hear and are called by God we choose according to our new natures.

redleghunter · Dec 14, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Verses on Prevenient Grace:

John 1:9 says,
“That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

John 12:32 says,
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

John 16:8-11 says,
8 “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.”

Romans 2:4 says,
“Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?”

Titus 2:11 says,
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,”

1 Timothy 2:3-4 says,
3 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

John 3:16 says,
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

2 Peter 3:9 which states that God “is not willing that any should perish, but for all to come to repentance.”

1 John 2:2 says,
“[Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” (Also see John 1:29 - the Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world).

Acts of the Apostles 16:14 says,
“And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.” (Note: This was an opening of the heart to listen and it was not a change of heart to be instantly saved and regenerated).

Hebrews 2:9 essentially says,
"Jesus tasted death for everyone."

We have free will choice involving God:

Matthew 13:15 says,
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

Matthew 23:37 (NLT) says,
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.”

Deuteronomy 30:19 says,
“I call heaven and earth as witness this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live”.

Acts of the Apostles 17:27 says, “he be not far from every one of us”

Only a few verses truly support your view. That would be if you were a Universalist. I know you are not so please try again.

redleghunter · Dec 14, 2018

Jason0047 said:
The Calvinistic versions of antinomianism cannot be seen in the Bible.

That’s because the Reformed theology does not support antinomianism.

I’m glad we could expose your misconceptions for once.

redleghunter · Dec 14, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Read 1 John 1:7 and Hebrews 5:9 and Hebrews 12:14.

Where was there perfection in those verses?

mark kennedy · Dec 14, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I would encourage you to watch Kerrigan Skelly's Two Part Video Sermon on Works Salvation:

It was probably one of the most eye opening videos on understanding Paul's writings that I had ever seen before.

Kerrigan Skelly's discussion of the Jerusalem Council is very good, he does a nice exposition, he does tell us you have to read through these passages in 'big chunks', of course I agree, so much better then quoting verses out of context. Let's consider the Council of Jerusalem, what was at stake there. Paul and Barnabas had returned from their first missionary journey and found that the Judaizers had infiltrated the early church. They wanted to enslave the Gentile Christians to the Law of Moses starting with circumcision.

The Gospel, initially scattered by persecution, takes the message to Antioch in Syria to the north, the coastlands of Phoenicia, Cyprus and Galatia. In the following missionary journey it would reach as far west as Greece, including Ephesus that raised up churches all along the Roman traveling in a big circle through Asian Minor. Other challenges awaited Paul as he struggles with Gentiles and Jews alike, the theme of justification by faith is resounding through the doctrinal discussions of Paul. God had told the Apostles that there was a plan but the Apostle Paul came as a big surprise to everyone. What is important to realize is the unity of the Gospel, as described by justification by faith is not just a Protestant or Pauline doctrine, it's an Apostolic doctrine. This was definitively settled at the Jerusalem Council in the autumn of 49 AD.

The Pharisees rise up at the Jerusalem Council to insist that Gentiles must be circumcised in order to full fill the Mosaic Law. Peter rises up and defends the salvation as being by grace through faith and says that the Mosaic Law is 'putting a yoke, on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear' (Acts 15:9,10). Paul calls them simply 'some false brothers' in Gal. 2:4. We know the argument of the Pharisees was simply, "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." (Acts 15:1). The answer to the unbearable yoke of Mosaic Law was justification by grace through faith. We are used to thinking of that as Pauline or Protestant Theology but here it is evident in the Apostolic doctrine. Peter preached, “To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins” (Acts 10:43).

Now I've been through the lessons a couple of times and I'm still trying to figure out how he is tying his rant against Calvinism to the Scriptures he is discussing. But following some of what he is teaching there isn't that much in the actual exposition a Calvinist would take issue with, he even claims that Lordship Salvation is how salvation works, most Calvinists would agree but there is a running debate over that one.

I'm a little confused @Jason0047, what you found so enlightening about this lesson, I know I thought it was very good. What is it about it that makes it so insightful?

Ken Rank · Dec 14, 2018

mark kennedy said:
That wasn't a rebuke, I'm just saying, I think his emphasis on repentance is important. There is just this odd kind of hang up he has on works that could be reconciled but he has a strange foreboding of Calvinism that I think is ill founded.

I really didn't take it as a rebuke, I was since in thanking you for the reminder. Abd if I deserve a rebuke, as long as it is handled well, I'll thank you for that, too.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 14, 2018

mark kennedy said:
Kerrigan Skelly's discussion of the Jerusalem Council is very good, he does a nice exposition, he does tell us you have to read through these passages in 'big chunks', of course I agree, so much better then quoting verses out of context. Let's consider the Council of Jerusalem, what was at stake there. Paul and Barnabas had returned from their first missionary journey and found that the Judaizers had infiltrated the early church. They wanted to enslave the Gentile Christians to the Law of Moses starting with circumcision.

The Gospel, initially scattered by persecution, takes the message to Antioch in Syria to the north, the coastlands of Phoenicia, Cyprus and Galatia. In the following missionary journey it would reach as far west as Greece, including Ephesus that raised up churches all along the Roman traveling in a big circle through Asian Minor. Other challenges awaited Paul as he struggles with Gentiles and Jews alike, the theme of justification by faith is resounding through the doctrinal discussions of Paul. God had told the Apostles that there was a plan but the Apostle Paul came as a big surprise to everyone. What is important to realize is the unity of the Gospel, as described by justification by faith is not just a Protestant or Pauline doctrine, it's an Apostolic doctrine. This was definitively settled at the Jerusalem Council in the autumn of 49 AD.

The Pharisees rise up at the Jerusalem Council to insist that Gentiles must be circumcised in order to full fill the Mosaic Law. Peter rises up and defends the salvation as being by grace through faith and says that the Mosaic Law is 'putting a yoke, on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear' (Acts 15:9,10). Paul calls them simply 'some false brothers' in Gal. 2:4. We know the argument of the Pharisees was simply, "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." (Acts 15:1). The answer to the unbearable yoke of Mosaic Law was justification by grace through faith. We are used to thinking of that as Pauline or Protestant Theology but here it is evident in the Apostolic doctrine. Peter preached, “To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins” (Acts 10:43).

Now I've been through the lessons a couple of times and I'm still trying to figure out how he is tying his rant against Calvinism to the Scriptures he is discussing. But following some of what he is teaching there isn't that much in the actual exposition a Calvinist would take issue with, he even claims that Lordship Salvation is how salvation works, most Calvinists would agree but there is a running debate over that one.

I'm a little confused @Jason0047, what you found so enlightening about this lesson, I know I thought it was very good. What is it about it that makes it so insightful?

The video was insightful because Christians today like to twist Paul's words today and think that when he uses words like "law" or "works" he is referring to ALL Law, when in reality he was referring to the old contract or the works of the Law of Moses (i.e. the whole of the 613 laws of the "Law of Moses." and not the Moral Law that has been repeated in the New Covenant). Paul was not referring to the commands in the New Testament that come from Jesus Christ and His followers. Christians today say they are not under the Law as if to say they are not under any kind of Law whatsoever salvation wise. However this is not true. For even to believe on Jesus is a commandment (1 John 3:23). Are you not under this law or commandment? There is also the law of faith (Romans 3:27). Are you not under this law in regards to your salvation?

Another insightful thing of the video is that Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism." Circumcision was something of the Old Covenant. According to Genesis 17:14, circumcision was necessary for salvation but this was ONLY after somebody first had faith (or belief) in God (See Romans 4:9-12). So the Jews who were trying to deceive the Christians in whom Paul was writing to were not even applying the practice of "circumcision" correctly even in the Old Covenant (When it used to be in effect before the cross). They were saying that you had to FIRST be circumcised in order to be saved. We see that this was the heresy that was addressed at the Jerusalem council.

Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

But Paul and others said you FIRST need to accept Christ as your Savior to be saved. The apostles were saying circumcision does not mean anything anymore in regards to salvation. Through out the whole of Romans and Galatians, we see Paul drop clues that he is speaking against "Circumcision Salvationism."

Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

Circumcision Salvationism means that it is all works that a person's faith is based upon and not Christ. So this does not mean Paul is against Sanctification or the necessity of good works as a part of the faith that comes after God's saving grace (of which we build upon).

The problem Paul had was putting the cart (works) before the horse (grace). The problem was that these Jews were encouraging Christians to follow the false Pharisee religion that distorted the Old Covenant by the fact that it made salvation all about a system of works alone without God's grace. For Jesus said that the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, FAITH, justice, and mercy (See Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42).

In other words, in Ephesians 2:8 and Titus 3:5 Paul is speaking against Law ALONE salvationism. Paul is not talking about the necessity of living holy after one is saved by God's grace (See Ephesians 1:4, Ephesians 4:17-32, Ephesians 5:3-8; Titus 1:16, Titus 2:11-14).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

Bible Highlighter · Dec 14, 2018

mark kennedy said:
My how well you do not know me, and you really under estimate the simplicity of John's epistle. It's the simplest Koine Greek in the New Testament, the usual starting point for those learning Koine Greek. You think I somehow tied to Calvinism but virtually all my theology comes from the Scriptures, Calvinism just happens to line up with the Scriptures better then the others in my estimation.

Calvinism is wrong on many levels because it is an attack upon the good character of God. You just don't know that it does or you simply don't care. On top of that, so many verses have to go ignored and or they have to be twisted to make Calvinism work, too.

The problem is that when you tell others that God chooses some to be saved and others not to be saved based on no conditions (When the Bible says that God died for the sins of the whole world and desires all to be saved) you are saying God is the One who just randomly for no reason chooses to love some and not all people (When He has the power to save them all). But if salvation is determined by a person choosing God or not, then it is in their hands (with God desiring them all to be saved).

Let me give you a real world example (like the parables Jesus made), to show you the immoral nature of Calvinism:

Let's say you and your family were lost at sea out in the open water with a few other people. One of you has a waterproof satellite radio and they call for help. A coast guard comes and when he arrives, he pulls everyone out of the water except you and your family. As he is about to drive off, you ask him, "Why are you not saving the rest of us?" He replies, "no reason." "I just don't feel like saving all of you today." Now, would you think this man was loving and good for doing that? No. You would be upset and think it was unfair of him to do that.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. (1 John 1:7)

You quote the verse, but you don't understand it.
It is saying that you have to walk in the light (love your brother - See 1 John 2:9-10) and as a result the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses you of all sin. One of the ways of loving your neighbor is the equivalent of keeping the Moral Law according to Paul (See Romans 13:8-10). So you have to obey God's commandments in the NT as a part of having the sacrifice applied to your life. This is why Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17) (Also see Luke 10:25-28). This is not at the expense of grace but it is in harmony with it. Grace is how we first get saved and it is the foundation of our faith.

That’s past (1 John 1:10)
Present (1 John 1:8)

You are not dividing the Word correctly. 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 are clearly false beliefs that John was warning the brethren about. For John was saying that he was speaking to them about those who were trying to seduce them (1 John 2:26).

1 John 1:8 is a false gnostic belief that John was warning the brethren about that says.... "If we say we have no sin" as if sin does not exist or it is an illusion. It is a heresy of the denial of sin's existence and it is not talking about how we as believers must recognize that we will always have sin in our lives.

Your interpretation conflicts with 1 John 2:4 that says that if a person says they know the Lord, and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. Your belief is saying as per 1 John 1:8 that a believer will always break God's commands on some level and yet they can still say the know the Lord. But this contradicts 1 John 2:3-6.

1 John 1:10 is also a false gnostic belief. It is a denial that a person has NEVER sinned before in their past life. We both agree that we have sinned as a part of our past life. This lets us know that 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 is talking about a false gnostic belief and 1 John 1:9 is the real solution in how to deal with sin (instead of ignoring it and thinking Jesus paid for all future sin). 1 John 1:7 says you need to walk in the light to have his blood cleanse you of all sin.

And future (1 John 2:1)

In 1 John 2:1, John says, "sin not." But you skate right past this and jump to the part that says that we will be in an endless cycle of confessing our sins to Jesus (with him being our advocate0.

The blood of Christ purifies us of sin.

If you walk in the light (1 John 1:7).
You are forgiven if you confess your sin (1 John 1:9).

This is nothing new. Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

That's not unique to Calvinism, that's the gospel. I understand the basic morality just fine, you were and are a sinner and will remain one until the translation of the church at the return of Christ. If you think you have no sin you deceive yourself and the the truth is not in you. I don't question for a second that you must repent, that murderers and those who do not love their brother are children of disobedience. I'm pointing out what should be obvious to anyone who has ever chose to work in doctrine and understand the theology of John here. God's salvation is not predicated on what you do or don't do but on what Christ did once and for all, by shedding his blood on the cross.

Repentance isn't an act of the will, it's the will of man cast into the crucible of God's grace and reformed in the image of Christ. It's not a requirement for salvation, it is salvation and the repentance and good works that glorify God are a miracle of the highest order.

Quit fighting me Jason, I'm not the enemy, I simply want you to sharpen up your expositional skills and encourage you to stop taking verses out of their natural context.

Grace and peace,
Mark

No. Jesus calls sinners to repentance (Luke 5:32).
1 Peter 4:18 says, "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

Bible Highlighter · Dec 14, 2018

redleghunter said:
We are His workmanship. It was Paul who said that and I quoted him.

Jesus said many are called but few are chosen. We are all by nature heading to the Lake of Fire condemned. God saves many. Why He is called Savior.

Of course we all do. But we operate our choices from our natures. If we are still dead in our sins and don’t have ears to hear we will keep choosing death. If we have ears to hear and are called by God we choose according to our new natures.

If you have a new nature and God has elected you to salvation: Why do you need to make decisions? If you are changed, you don't need to make decisions. You will just automatically do the right thing and you will not be able to help it.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 14, 2018

redleghunter said:
Where was there perfection in those verses?

He was talking about perfection. I was talking about righteousness.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 14, 2018

redleghunter said:
Only a few verses truly support your view. That would be if you were a Universalist. I know you are not so please try again.

Then you don't know the theological doctrine of Prevenient Grace. Prevenient Grace does not teach Universalism. Try researching it.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 14, 2018

redleghunter said:
That’s because the Reformed theology does not support antinomianism.

I’m glad we could expose your misconceptions for once.

You mean, Calvinism's version of Antinomianism. It does not take into account the Bible's version of Antinomianism. As I pointed out before, the Bible teaches we can overcome grievous sin. Most in the Calvinistic camp believe 1 John 1:8 is saying they will always be in some kind of sin their whole lives. Yet, they are still saved by having a belief on Jesus. This is a justification of sin and evil (Antinomianism). Sure, it may not be a justification of an excessive sinful lifestyle, but it still seeks to justify sin on a more subtler way. Listen to your Calvin brother Mark Kennedy. Mark Kennedy's response to me in one of his previous posts states:

"you were and are a sinner and will remain one until the translation of the church at the return of Christ." ~ Mark Kennedy.

See Post #159.

However, this is not how Christians describe themselves in the Bible. They are called saints and for good reason. This is why your belief is Antinomian. It is acknowledging that you are a sinner (saved by Grace) instead of being a saint (saved by God's grace).

Bible Highlighter · Dec 14, 2018

redleghunter said:
Yes perfection is the standard to enter the Kingdom. Only One is worthy do so...The Son of God Who gave His life as a ransom.

So it doesn't matter how we live then. That is what this statement implies.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 14, 2018

mark kennedy said:
@redleghunter was asking you a direct question, he knows the Scriptures, he was asking you. "How do fallen human beings choose God to save them"? God must reveal something other then sin, that's a key part of it, but the righteousness of God in Christ has to be clear to you so you see, perceive and understand you are a sinner before God. You can choose God all day long, what is important is that God chooses you.

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. (John 1:12-13)

Being born again is a work of God right? That's not a trick question, it's the gospel.

No. He is not addressing the verses on Prevenient Grace. If he understood these verses, he would explain them. A person may be able to explain one verse away, but when we have a whole pattern of verses saying the same thing, then we need to carefully consider that what they say at face value is true.

redleghunter · Dec 14, 2018

Jason0047 said:
No. He is not addressing the verses on Prevenient Grace. If he understood these verses, he would explain them. A person may be able to explain one verse away, but when we have a whole pattern of verses saying the same thing, then we need to carefully consider that what they say at face value is true.

The Biblical evidence is that God chooses us and we do not choose Him. I have 5 times the number of verses than you do. I guess I win the proof text war.

I have so many verses I don't think CF could contain the data. So provide it here linked to Blue Letter Bible.

Chose
Choose
Chosen
Elect

Free will 1x Occurrence in the NT

God's Will
Will of the Father

Bible Highlighter · Dec 14, 2018

redleghunter said:
The Biblical evidence is that God chooses us and we do not choose Him. I have 5 times the number of verses than you do. I guess I win the proof text war. I have so many verses I don't think CF could contain the data. So provide it here linked to Blue Letter Bible.

Chose
Choose
Chosen
Elect

Free will 1x Occurrence in the NT

God's Will
Will of the Father

Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

redleghunter · Dec 14, 2018

Jason0047 said:
John 1:9 says,
“That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

John 12:32 says,
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

The Universalists use this to 'prove' all will be saved. "All" or "world" is always qualified in the context.

Jason0047 said:
John 16:8-11 says,
8 “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.”

How is this prevenient grace?

Jason0047 said:
Romans 2:4 says,
“Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?”

Are all men led to repentance?

Jason0047 said:
Titus 2:11 says,
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,”

The Grace of God bringeth salvation. Is this to all men? If so the promotion is Universalism.

Jason0047 said:
1 Timothy 2:3-4 says,
3 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Again, used for Universal salvation which I know you don't accept nor do I. Again find the qualifier here.

Jason0047 said:
John 3:16 says,
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

He loved the world so much only those who believe in Him have everlasting life. Therefore, the qualifier. Only Israelites/Jews were people of the Promise. This shows all people's are now in the Promise and not just Jews and not all people or individuals.

Jason0047 said:
2 Peter 3:9 which states that God “is not willing that any should perish, but for all to come to repentance.”

This is true but we know not everyone will come to repentance. Once again a Universalist argument.

Jason0047 said:
1 John 2:2 says,
“[Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” (Also see John 1:29 - the Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world).

Again look for the qualifier. Are those who end up in the Lake of Fire atoned for?

Jason0047 said:
Acts of the Apostles 16:14 says,
“And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.” (Note: This was an opening of the heart to listen and it was not a change of heart to be instantly saved and regenerated).

That's your commentary. This is actually effectual calling as she did accept the Gospel. This is what the Lord said to Paul in chapter 18:

9And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; 10for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.” 11And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Jason0047 said:
Matthew 13:15 says,
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

As explained here:

Romans 11: NASB
1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3“Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” 4But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” 5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Jason0047 said:
Matthew 23:37 (NLT) says,
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.”

Whoa why are you using the NLT of all versions.
Yet Jesus says:

Luke 8: NASB
9His disciples began questioning Him as to what this parable meant. 10And He said, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.

Why was it given to some to see and hear and not others?

Jason0047 said:
Deuteronomy 30:19 says,
“I call heaven and earth as witness this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live”.

Yes they had a choice to follow the Mosaic covenant and have a farm in the land of Israel. What does this have to do with prevenient grace?

Jason0047 said:
Acts of the Apostles 17:27 says, “he be not far from every one of us”

Acts 17: NASB

22So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23“For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24“The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ 29“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

Context is Paul speaking to Greek pagans who had not a clue what was the Gospel and thought his message was just another Jewish sect. Not far from each one of us is now the Gospel offered to all peoples as he says here: God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent

Do all people repent? I think we know the answer is no.

Therefore, the question still stands. How do you choose God with a fallen human heart and mind? If all men are enlightened equally to hear the Gospel without our old natures intervening, then why do some choose God and some reject God? If all have ears to hear and eyes to see when presented with this prevenient grace why do some come to the Lord and choose Him and some reject Him? If our nature is truly restored to Eden so where we can make a true free will choice to follow Christ or reject Him, how can this be when we still have fallen flesh and are sons and daughters of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

So please explain how prevenient grace works in those who accept and choose Christ and why prevenient grace fails for those who reject Christ. What makes one man more prone to accept and the other to reject?

redleghunter · Dec 14, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

Jason the Gospel is a Universal call. That is what is called a general call. According to your prevenient grace view, if all are on equal standing in hearing the Gospel why do some reject it and some accept it?

redleghunter · Dec 14, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Let me give you a real world example (like the parables Jesus made), to show you the immoral nature of Calvinism:

Let's say you and your family were lost at sea out in the open water with a few other people. One of you has a waterproof satellite radio and they call for help. A coast guard comes and when he arrives, he pulls everyone out of the water except you and your family. As he is about to drive off, you ask him, "Why are you not saving the rest of us?" He replies, "no reason." "I just don't feel like saving all of you today." Now, would you think this man was loving and good for doing that? No. You would be upset and think it was unfair of him to do that.

It's a flawed example. Because your natural conclusion is all are saved and that's Universalism.

How Do you Define Sola Fide (Faith Alone) and is it Biblical?

Natura non facit saltum

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Natura non facit saltum

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Thank You Jesus!

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

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