No deal BREXIT looms

Daniel C · Dec 13, 2018

lesliedellow said:
How often did the EU have to say that we can’t have access to the single market without also accepting the free movement of labour, before the Brexiteers got the message? The EU was never going to accept that, but presumably the Brexiteers managed to delude themselves into thinking they were bluffing, and they found out too late that itwasn’t. That kind of bone headedness had nothing to do with remainers.

My OP was to another member not you,talking about the consequences of a second referendum. You intervened but seem unwillingly to make sensible dialogue about those points and just want to be hostile to anyone who voted leave.....

Good luck with that.

Francis Drake · Dec 13, 2018

lismore said:
Hello Daniel. A second referendum could be a different ballgame. It would be the Brexit aka Theresa May's bad deal up against Remain. People now know there is no other Brexit deal on the table other than Theresa May's bad deal. God Bless

This is the deception that is constantly being parroted on the media. A new referendum between Theresa May's Chequers deal, or Remaining in the EU.
This is deliberately being stoked up to divert people's attention from the result of the referendum which was specifically to leave the EU.
Therefore a second referendum choice can only be between leaving under the appalling Chequers deal, or a Hard Brexit.
There can be no option to remain in the EU without destroying the democratic basis of this country.

Francis Drake · Dec 13, 2018

The United States ambassador in London Robert “Woody” Johnson has said President Donald Trump and the American people are eager to make a free trade agreement with the United Kingdom.
“I cannot overemphasize the willingness of President Trump and the American people to make a strong free trade agreement between our two countries,” Mr Johnson said Thursday.

“It will be the standard bearer for all future trade agreements!” he added.

U.S. Ambassador: President Trump Eager to Make ‘Strong FTA’ with UK

Goonie · Dec 13, 2018

Francis Drake said:
This is the deception that is constantly being parroted on the media. A new referendum between Theresa May's Chequers deal, or Remaining in the EU.
This is deliberately being stoked up to divert people's attention from the result of the referendum which was specifically to leave the EU.
Therefore a second referendum choice can only be between leaving under the appalling Chequers deal, or a Hard Brexit.
There can be no option to remain in the EU without destroying the democratic basis of this country.

Then obviously the next general election must be cancelled, since the will of the people was obviously made clear last time and it would bdestroy the democratic basis of this country to allow them to change their mind!

Goonie · Dec 13, 2018

Francis Drake said:
The United States ambassador in London Robert “Woody” Johnson has said President Donald Trump and the American people are eager to make a free trade agreement with the United Kingdom.
“I cannot overemphasize the willingness of President Trump and the American people to make a strong free trade agreement between our two countries,” Mr Johnson said Thursday.

“It will be the standard bearer for all future trade agreements!” he added.

U.S. Ambassador: President Trump Eager to Make ‘Strong FTA’ with UK

Yes we are quite aware that asset strippers are waiting in the wings thanks for reminding us.

Francis Drake · Dec 13, 2018

Goonie said:
Then obviously the next general election must be cancelled, since the will of the people was obviously made clear last time and it would bdestroy the democratic basis of this country to allow them to change their mind!

Empty strawman argument.
Elections are regular events, whereas the referendum was always going to be a "one off" event with no reruns.

The referendum was presented to the nation by Cameron as a once in a lifetime event with no second referendum. Therefore another referendum cannot possibly ask the same question without damaging our democracy.

Remaining in the EU cannot be an option, therefore a second referendum can only decide what sort of leaving we'd like. ie. a hard or soft Brexit.

Francis Drake · Dec 13, 2018

Goonie said:
Yes we are quite aware that asset strippers are waiting in the wings thanks for reminding us.

Asset strippers, you mean like the EU?

You are imagining a Free Trade Agreement with the USA will incur the same destruction of industry and commerce that our hopeless trading partnership with the EU has done over the last 40 years.

Goonie · Dec 13, 2018

Francis Drake said:
Asset strippers, you mean like the EU?

You are imagining a Free Trade Agreement with the USA will incur the same destruction of industry and commerce that our hopeless trading partnership with the EU has done over the last 40 years.

Sorry but do you really think a trade deal between a desperate UK, and Trumps America will do anything but open the UK to anything but asset stripping, and a nose dive in employment environmental and food regulations? Ask a British farmer what they think of having yo compete with the cheapest produced food on earth.

lismore · Dec 13, 2018

Francis Drake said:
This is the deception that is constantly being parroted on the media. A new referendum between Theresa May's Chequers deal, or Remaining in the EU.
This is deliberately being stoked up to divert people's attention from the result of the referendum which was specifically to leave the EU.
Therefore a second referendum choice can only be between leaving under the appalling Chequers deal, or a Hard Brexit.
There can be no option to remain in the EU without destroying the democratic basis of this country.

Hello Drake. Parliament tabled an amendment against no-deal. It's not on the table. The EU have put forward the notion of the UK recinding article 50 and Theresa May's deal is on the table.

P.S Isn't a democracy where the people vote directly on every issue, an in Ancient Athens or Syracuse? When we appoint representatives to vote for us that's an Oligarchy. Democracy would be nice, but we have to take what we can get. God Bless

SoldierOfTheKing · Dec 13, 2018

Goonie said:
Then obviously the next general election must be cancelled, since the will of the people was obviously made clear last time and it would bdestroy the democratic basis of this country to allow them to change their mind!

In 1975 when the British electorate voted for the Common Market, it took 41 years before they got another chance to have their voices heard. So I figure the UK will be due in for another referendum on the EU around 2057...

Goonie · Dec 14, 2018

We are the eggs being broken for this rotten Brexit omelette | Christina Patterson

Francis Drake · Dec 14, 2018

Goonie said:
We are the eggs being broken for this rotten Brexit omelette | Christina Patterson

Meanwhile, Owen Paterson said, "We should be offering the EU reciprocal free trade with zero tariffs, and if they won’t accept that then we go to WTO arrangements which tiny little countries like the United States, China, India struggle to trade under."

lesliedellow · Dec 14, 2018

Francis Drake said:
This is the deception that is constantly being parroted on the media. A new referendum between Theresa May's Chequers deal, or Remaining in the EU.
This is deliberately being stoked up to divert people's attention from the result of the referendum which was specifically to leave the EU.
Therefore a second referendum choice can only be between leaving under the appalling Chequers deal, or a Hard Brexit.
There can be no option to remain in the EU without destroying the democratic basis of this country.

Except there is less than no chance of Parliament allowing a hard Brexit. The only MPs who would be in favour of having that on the ballot paper are the goons in the ERG.

Goonie · Dec 15, 2018

lesliedellow said:
Except there is less than no chance of Parliament allowing a hard Brexit. The only MPs who would be in favour of having that on the ballot paper are the goons in the ERG.

Sadly with the Maybot delaying and delaying, and a reluctance of the EU to allow for a delay, Hard Brexit is now the most likely outcome.

Francis Drake · Dec 15, 2018

lesliedellow said:
Except there is less than no chance of Parliament allowing a hard Brexit. The only MPs who would be in favour of having that on the ballot paper are the goons in the ERG.

As opposed to the rest of the parliamentary goons who despise the voters and are determined to halt Brexit.

Britain is perfectly able to prosper and flourish on the world scene and completely outside of the EU.

mindlight · Dec 15, 2018

Daniel C said:
What happens if there is a second referendum and this time remain wins? Do we need to hold a third referendum?because after all both sides have won a referendum at this point.What happens if leave wins,again?Do you think the opposition will finally accept the outcome?

I think the resistance caused by remain and the left wing in general has caused an extreme amount of damage to the country by roadblocking our exit and making the European politicians in the EU positions much stronger in the exit negotiations in these constant delay tactics with legal and parliamentary challenges. If the remain politicians/people can't bring themselves to cooperate with a democratic decision and prefer to weaken our negotiation options than of course things will be drawn out and disadvantaged for us.

A second referendum is asking a different question. It is asking whether having done the negotiations and having a clearer picture of what BREXIT means we still want to do it.

Also to some extent the result of the first referendum (52-48) was very narrow and so provides some grounds for clarification in a second referendum.

The chaos in parliament is also a factor here. Since there is no clear consensus in parliament as to what BREXIT should mean it will require a decision from the people to restore clarity to the process.

Goonie · Dec 15, 2018

mindlight said:
A second referendum is asking a different question. It is asking whether having done the negotiations and having a clearer picture of what BREXIT means we still want to do it.

Also to some extent the result of the first referendum (52-48) was very narrow and so provides some grounds for clarification in a second referendum.

The chaos in parliament is also a factor here. Since there is no clear consensus in parliament as to what BREXIT should mean it will require a decision from the people to restore clarity to the process.

And before it’s suggested we have already had one general election to try and resolve the issue. May did not exactly find a country screaming to vote in a Brexit supporting govt.

mindlight · Dec 15, 2018

lesliedellow said:
Except there is less than no chance of Parliament allowing a hard Brexit. The only MPs who would be in favour of having that on the ballot paper are the goons in the ERG.

Most MPs are probably opposed to a hard BREXIT but how does that stop it happening if the MPs have no clarity on an alternative. Many MPs appear to be holding out for a better deal that will never come from the EU. But since they are confused and conflicted about what they want and the EU says negotiations are closed that seems unlikely. So we have 3 main options. If parliament cannot come to a consensus then this decision would have to go to the people in a second referendum.

1) Clean BREXIT - just leave and handle the situation with international law and trade rules.

2) The May deal for BREXIT.

3) Cancel BREXIT

hedrick · Dec 15, 2018

It's hard to see a second vote as anti-democratic. Lots of promises were made about what BREXIT would accomplish. Now the electorate is in a better position to see whether they still believe them. After all, if people still want to leave, they can vote for it again.

The US Press is painting a picture of such disarray that Parliament is unlikely to be able to call a vote. The implication seems clear that the most likely outcome is a no-deal exit. Even though almost no one actually wants that result.

mindlight · Dec 15, 2018

Goonie said:
And before it’s suggested we have already had one general election to try and resolve the issue. May did not exactly find a country screaming to vote in a Brexit supporting govt.

We had a general election which was about the Tories increasing their majority. But somehow the Remain vote got attached to Labour in that election and the Tories very nearly lost it. This despite the fact that a large segment of traditional Labour party supporters voted for BREXIT. The threat of Corbyn rules out an election until BREXIT is resolved and not a factor. A referendum can be only about this issue and is not party specific. Given the chaos in parliament we do not really have another choice.

No deal BREXIT looms

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