What are some examples of losing salvation?

aiki · Dec 13, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Did you notice who Jesus was speaking to? Notice how many times Jesus says to them “you”.

““I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted! When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-8‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Why does Jesus warn His faithful 11 apostles about abiding if they cannot turn away? Why would He warn them about doing something that is impossible and explain the consequences?

I've addressed this passage so many times in conversation with those who hold to a saved-and-lost doctrine! I detest the NLT, so I'm going to quote the passage from the NASB:

John 15:1-6
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

First off, in the light of the viticultural practices of New Testament times, the phrase "takes away" is actually better translated as "lifts up" or "takes up." The Greek word "airo" translated in verse 2 as "takes away" is actually the verb "to lift." The following quotation explains why "takes away" is a faulty translation:

"The approach of most exegetes is to see in Jesus’ words a process by which farmers pick off the adventitious sprigs from the fruiting branches (cleanses them) and cut off nonfruiting branches (takes them away). This interpretation of ai[rei, however, contradicts the evidence from Pliny that nonfruiting branches were preserved and nurtured for use the following season. It would be better to see Jesus indicating what actually occurred during the spring, namely, certain nonfruiting branches were tied to the trellises along with the fruiting branches while the side shoots of the fruiting branches were being “cleaned up.” "

(Gary Derickson, "Viticulture and John 15:1-6")

Verse 2, then, was not indicating that a person may lose their salvation (ie. is "taken away") but that the unfruitful branch in the vine (ie. a saved person) was lifted up and supported on a trellis, as was the practice of the time.

Verse 6 is clearly speaking of someone who is not saved. By definition, one who is saved is abiding in Christ. One who is not in him, one who is not in the Vine, is one who has not been saved. Such a person is likened to a branch that is "cast forth and burned" which accords well with other verses that speak of the eternal fate of the lost. This is why Christ does not use the pronoun "you" at all in verse 6.

Oldmantook · Dec 13, 2018

MDC said:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me HATH EVERLASTING LIFE.. John 6:47. If one can lose eternal life in Christ, then Christ has failed. And if salvation can be lost, then salvation must be merited in some way by the sinner. The doctrine of losing eternal life in Christ just demonstrates and gives evidence of no faith in the gospel.

You quote John 6:47 but neglect to cite Heb 5:9. One must believe but also OBEY for eternal salvation. Christ never fails but we of course are subject to failure.

fhansen · Dec 13, 2018

JohnB445 said:
Do we lose it like we lose a set of car keys? Does someone just tip their hat to God and decide they don't want eternal life anymore?

I'm not sure how this works.

“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17)

"Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,"

"Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!"

“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?"

And yes I understand Faith doesn't mean say a prayer or agree. Faith is something that is alive. And part of that faith is believing that Jesus is the Lord, so if you believe he is your Lord then you will do what he says. I don't see how those 2 are separated.

"But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

We can turn to God; we can turn away from God, just as Adam did to begin with. We can taste of the heavenly fruit and then reject it, we can be branches grafted in, then later cut off, or poor soil where the seed first takes root but then later withers and dies. We can return to sin, rather than 'going, and sinning no more'. We can be the wicked and lazy servant who buries rather than invests his gifts and is tossed out of the kingdom. We aren't forced to remain in Christ or to remain faithful, which is why we're admonished to do both.

ToServe · Dec 13, 2018

redleghunter said:
Hebrews 9 says nothing about our works saving us or keeping us saved. You made that up

14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The blood justifies, yet it is through the Holy Spirit in the way we ought to purge our conscious from dead fleshly works related to the 1st Tabernacle. We ought to serve God as the Living Stones of the New Temple of God by offering ourselves daily and throughout our lives to God as the Daily Sacrifice that God approves off through the eternal Spirit of God in guareenting our eternal inheritance. The Spirit guarantees salvation after and only after the Testator has shed their blood in order to receive their crown of life that is their salvation (Hebrews 9:15-17)

The will of God is -

Romans 12:1
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God--this is your true and proper worship.

1 Peter 2:5
you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Life sanctificatiin by the Holy Spirit of God in offering your body as a living sacrifice (The Daily) and within the New Temple Sanctuary and through Christ and unto death.

If the ongoing Daily spiritual Sacrifice which is a person's sanctification life long works cease, then they are found to not do the will of God. A person's salvation is pending at death judgement, for all men are destined to die once then judgement. If this ongoing Daily Sacrifice is not happening through Christ, therefore and in this regard salvation pending is not attained. For many are called and justified by Christ, but yet only a few are deemed salvation worthy after they die to be judged by the righteous judge worthy of his crown of life that he awards the Testator only after biological death.

Paul defined this pending salvation outcome as follows -

2 Timothy 4:6-8
6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day.

Salvation is determined only after death and not before and justification alone cannot guarantee you salvation in this temporal life.

redleghunter · Dec 13, 2018

ToServe said:
No, that is incorrect. We are justified by the blood of Christ, but saved only by the sanctifying life works of the Holy Spirit who guarantees what is to come.

Justification by faith without the Holy Spirit life sanctification through the purgation fires of God does NOT save.

It’s a package deal not a la carte.

redleghunter · Dec 13, 2018

ToServe said:
14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The blood justifies, yet it is through the Holy Spirit in the way we ought to purge our conscious from dead fleshly works related to the 1st Tabernacle. We ought to serve God as the Living Stones of the New Temple of God by offering ourselves daily and throughout our lives to God as the Daily Sacrifice that God approves off through the eternal Spirit of God in guareenting our eternal inheritance. The Spirit guarantees salvation after and only after the Testator has shed their blood in order to receive their crown of life that is their salvation (Hebrews 9:15-17)

The will of God is -

Romans 12:1
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God--this is your true and proper worship.

1 Peter 2:5
you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Life sanctificatiin by the Holy Spirit of God in offering your body as a living sacrifice (The Daily) and within the New Temple Sanctuary and through Christ and unto death.

If the ongoing Daily spiritual Sacrifice which is a person's sanctification life long works cease, then they are found to not do the will of God. A person's salvation is pending at death judgement, for all men are destined to die once then judgement. If this ongoing Daily Sacrifice is not happening through Christ, therefore and in this regard salvation pending is not attained. For many are called and justified by Christ, but yet only a few are deemed salvation worthy after they die to be judged by the righteous judge worthy of his crown of life that he awards the Testator only after biological death.

Paul defined this pending salvation outcome as follows -

2 Timothy 4:6-8
6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day.

Salvation is determined only after death and not before and justification alone cannot guarantee you salvation in this temporal life.

You have no argument the quoted text speaks of Sanctification. Where is your evidence of loss of salvation?

Sanctification is initially being set apart. Then the conforming to the image of Christ. Of course this is the work of the Holy Spirit. Romans 8 is quite clear on this.

So what’s your point?

JIMINZ · Dec 13, 2018

JohnB445 said:
What are some examples of losing salvation?

There aren't any examples of such a thing because, a Born Again Believer cannot lose his Salvation.

ToServe · Dec 13, 2018

redleghunter said:
It’s a package deal not a la carte.

No package deal. You are the carte, that is the living stone that is required to abide by Romans 12:1 and 1 Peter 2:5 by offering yourself as a Daily Sacrifice.

If you don't finish the race you started in order to be a new creation through Christ, then salvation is determinant upon your spiritual state post mortem.

redleghunter · Dec 13, 2018

ToServe said:
If the ongoing Daily spiritual Sacrifice which is your sanctification life long works cease, then you are found to not do the will of God and your salvation pending at death judgement, for all men are destined to die once then judgement, is not happening through Christ and in this regard salvation pending is not realized, for many are called and justified by Christ but only a few are deemed salvation worthy after they die to be judged by the righteous judge worthy of his crown of life that he awards the Testator only after biological death.

The impending “if” of eisegesis.

Romans 8: NASB

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

ToServe · Dec 13, 2018

redleghunter said:
You have no argument the quoted text speaks of Sanctification. Where is your evidence of loss of salvation?

Sanctification is initially being set apart. Then the conforming to the image of Christ. Of course this is the work of the Holy Spirit. Romans 8 is quite clear on this.

So what’s your point?

You cannot claim that you are saved whilst you have not yet finished your race of faith in order to be judged post mortem.

Faith is not a one night stand with Christ, rather faith is a lifelong journey through the finished works of Christ and as a result of genuine faith, faith increasing where evidence is the spiritual state of he Testator which points to their life long sanctification in the purgation fires of God.

JohnB445 · Dec 13, 2018

ToServe said:
You cannot claim that you are saved whilst you have not yet finished your race of faith in order to be judged post mortem.

Faith is not a one night stand with Christ, rather faith is a lifelong journey through the finished works if Christ and as a result of genuine faith, faith increasing where evidence is the spiritual state of he Testator which points to their life long sanctification in the purgation fires of God.

Its common sense. If someone believes that Jesus is Lord, they don't sin. If they sin they don't believe.

redleghunter · Dec 13, 2018

ToServe said:
Salvation is determined only after death and not before and justification alone cannot guarantee you salvation in this temporal life.

Our salvation is complete when we are glorified.

Our standing with God and reconciliation is at the point of Justification:

Romans 5: NASB

1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of Godthrough Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

ToServe · Dec 13, 2018

redleghunter said:
The impending “if” of eisegesis.

Romans 8: NASB

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Your salvation constructs are void of the entire scope of the New Temple Santuary of God. Please read Hebrews 9 with reference to 1 Peter 2:5 and Romans 12:1.

Jesus said be faithful even onto death as a condition of your salvation, where he will determine you to either make the cut or not post mortem.

ToServe · Dec 13, 2018

JohnB445 said:
Its common sense. If someone believes that Jesus is Lord, they don't sin. If they sin they don't believe.

Yes, but salvation has not yet been attained in this temporal life, but is only determined post mortem, where Christ judges a servant either as good or as wicked.

ToServe · Dec 13, 2018

redleghunter said:
Our salvation is complete when we are glorified

Our salvation is guareenteed post mortem and it is post mortem determined by Christ's standards, based upon spiritual growth and development of the witness whilst he was on probationary.

If a person's spiritual state is the same 5 or even 10 years down the track, then that person is not exhibiting faith through Christ and is a complacent wicked servant who is not offering their bodies as a living sacrifice.

redleghunter said:
Our standing with God and reconciliation is at the point of Justification:

It does not end there for we are qualified to begin our race of faith at this point and by no means is it a done deal.

redleghunter · Dec 13, 2018

ToServe said:
Faith is not a one night stand with Christ,

A blasphemous suggestion. Yet a straw man.

ToServe said:
rather faith is a lifelong journey through the finished works of Christ and as a result of genuine faith, faith increasing where evidence is the spiritual state of he Testator which points to their life long sanctification

No arguments there.

ToServe said:
in the purgation fires of God.

Whoa where did Purgatory come into this ?

redleghunter · Dec 14, 2018

ToServe said:
Our salvation is guareenteed post mortem and it is post mortem determined by Christ's standards, based upon spiritual growth and development of the witness whilst he was on probationary.

Can you point to probationary salvation?

ToServe said:
If a person's spiritual state is the same 5 or even 10 years down the track, then that person is not exhibiting faith through Christ and is a complacent wicked servant who is not offering their bodies as a living sacrifice.

I’m glad you have a human standard to judge others.

ToServe said:
It does not end there for we are qualified to begin our race of faith at this point and by no means is it a done deal.

You are confusing terms which you apply to your eisegesis. Of course salvation is not complete until we are raised imperishable. We have the seal of Promise from the moment of Justification.

You are making up a lot of standards which are not taught in Scriptures and making Justification and Glorification reliant on what we do as if our works merit. They don’t. Whatever we have we cast at the feet of Christ from Whom all things come to us.

ToServe · Dec 14, 2018

redleghunter said:
A blasphemous suggestion. Yet a straw man.

It was meant to be a spiritual state that unfortunately many today embrace as the means of salvation, because they had a one day/night eureka moment with Christ and they lead themselves to believe that Christ will honour them in his Father's house regardless of their spiritual state throughout their lives after this point or even post mortem.

I compared it as a one night spiritual stand because many think that that night or day sealed it for them and they have earned Christ's loyalty forever even though their loyalty is somewhere else with a one night stand with the world.

redleghunter said:
Whoa where did Purgatory come into this ?

Zechariah 13:9
This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.'"

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

The Spirit of God is the spiritual purgation fire that changes a justified person who had been through the purifying water of Christ from a person governed by a mind of flesh to a mind governed by the Spirit of God (Romans 8).

Water purifies, that is, it justifies and this is the finished works of Christ.

The Spirit burns away the old man and creates the new man in Christ.

If there is no change in the spiritual state of a person then you can drown him in purifying waters and he will be no spiritually cleaner at the other end.

ToServe · Dec 14, 2018

redleghunter said:
Can you point to probationary salvation?

I’m glad you have a human standard to judge others.

You are confusing terms which you apply to your eisegesis. Of course salvation is not complete until we are raised imperishable. We have the seal of Promise from the moment of Justification.

You are making up a lot of standards which are not taught in Scriptures and making Justification and Glorification reliant on what we do as if our works merit. They don’t. Whatever we have we cast at the feet of Christ from Whom all things come to us.

Ok, enough said and thank you.

redleghunter · Dec 14, 2018

ToServe said:
It was meant to be a spiritual state that unfortunately many today embrace as the means of salvation, because they had a one day/night eureka moment with Christ and they lead themselves to believe that Christ will honour them in his Father's house regardless of their spiritual state throughout their lives after this point or even post mortem.

I compared it as a one night spiritual stand because many think that that night or day sealed it for them and they have earned Christ's loyalty forever even though their loyalty is somewhere else with a one night stand with the world.

Is there someone arguing this here? Is there some church or theology you had in mind which we could examine their Catechism or statement of beliefs?

“What ifs” end up detailing threads.

What are some examples of losing salvation?

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