1 John 3:9, John says Christians cannot sin

Danthemailman · Dec 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
Don't be so quick to discount works.

James 2:
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was "shown to be righteous."

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was "justified." He was "shown to be righteous."

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs. (James 2:18)

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony* :oldthumbsup:

1stcenturylady · Dec 13, 2018

Danthemailman said:
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was "shown to be righteous."

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was "justified." He was "shown to be righteous."

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs. (James 2:18)

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*

Just remember, a branch with no fruit is cut off. John 15

Danthemailman · Dec 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
What is the gift that makes this possible? The gift of the Holy Spirit to walk in - only then are you Christ's. Romans 8:9

We must first believe the gospel in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; Ephesians 1:13). Also, the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God. (AMPC)

Danthemailman · Dec 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
Just remember, a branch with no fruit is cut off. John 15

Like Judas Iscariot. Greek scholar AT Robertson sums up John 15:2 perfectly.

Branch (klhma). Old word from klaw, to break, common in LXX for offshoots of the vine, in N.T. only here (verses 1 Corinthians 2-6 ), elsewhere in N.T. klado ( Mark 4:32 , etc.), also from klaw, both words meaning tender and easily broken parts. In me (en emoi). Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

1stcenturylady · Dec 13, 2018

Danthemailman said:
We must first believe the gospel in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; Ephesians 1:13). Also, the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God. (AMPC)

You have a popular, but unscriptural definition of grace - "unmerited favor." The apostles taught that grace is the "power of God." That grace - that power - is how we are dead to sin and transformed into new creatures.

Many with your definition of grace, never repent, calling repentance a "work."

Danthemailman · Dec 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
You have a popular, but unscriptural definition of grace - "unmerited favor." The apostles taught that grace is the "power of God." That grace - that power - is how we are dead to sin and transformed into new creatures.

Are you saying that grace is the "merited" favor of God? The Greek word for "grace" is "charis" and included in the definition is "favor." The Thayer's lexicon says - kindness which bestows upon one what he has not deserved. That is certainly unmerited.

God's grace is where God shows us mercy, kindness, and patience instead of the judgment that we deserve for sinning against Him. God's grace cannot be earned by our actions or sincerity. Grace is based on the character of God and not on our sincerity, performance, or ability to keep the law. Otherwise, grace would not be grace.

Romans 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Galatians 2:21, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

2 Timothy 1:9, "who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."

God's grace is not merited and God's grace is His enabling power in which He operates sovereignly in the lives of believers.

1 Corinthians 15:10 - But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

2 Corinthians 12:9 - And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Galatians 2:20 - I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness comes by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

aiki · Dec 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
Many look at their life experience and adjust their interpretation of scripture to match their lack of lining up with scripture, which is why many haven't a clue what freedom from the desire to sin even feels like, and in turn make dumb statements like "we will always sin." They don't know Jesus, just read about Him.

Such disdain in your words. And self-righteousness. How have you come to think that you honor God by calling others clueless and dumb? I know, I know: You didn't call people dumb, only their statements. But, of course, those "dumb statements" come from people, who, when they make such statements, demonstrate themselves to be dumb (in your opinion). Dumb is as dumb does, after all. So, yes, you did - albeit in a second-hand way - call those who don't see things as you do "dumb." And what a thing it is to say that another doesn't know Jesus just because they don't take your view of things! What astonishing hubris you display! My goodness! And this from a person who professes to be without the desire to sin! How your own words catch you out!

aiki · Dec 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
You have a popular, but unscriptural definition of grace - "unmerited favor." The apostles taught that grace is the "power of God." That grace - that power - is how we are dead to sin and transformed into new creatures.

"Grace" is a word with more than one meaning in Scripture. Context determines which meaning is intended. Sometimes it may mean enabling power, at other times unmerited favour. It is a false dichotomy to assert that "grace" in Scripture must always mean only one or the other. Vine's Expository Bible Dictionary devotes an entire page and a quarter to the explication of all the various ways in which the word "grace" is used in Scripture.

1stcenturylady · Dec 13, 2018

aiki said:
Such disdain in your words. And self-righteousness. How have you come to think that you honor God by calling others clueless and dumb? I know, I know: You didn't call people dumb, only their statements. But, of course, those "dumb statements" come from people, who, when they make such statements, demonstrate themselves to be dumb (in your opinion). Dumb is as dumb does, after all. So, yes, you did - albeit in a second-hand way - call those who don't see things as you do "dumb." And what a thing it is to say that another doesn't know Jesus just because they don't take your view of things! What astonishing hubris you display! My goodness! And this from a person who professes to be without the desire to sin! How your own words catch you out!

You have no idea how dangerous those dumb statements of those teachers are, when believed by itching ears that lap it up - all the way to hell. False doctrine is not treated any nicer by any of the apostles.

1stcenturylady · Dec 13, 2018

aiki said:
"Grace" is a word with more than one meaning in Scripture. Context determines which meaning is intended. Sometimes it may mean enabling power, at other times unmerited favour. It is a false dichotomy to assert that "grace" in Scripture must always mean only one or the other. Vine's Expository Bible Dictionary devotes an entire page and a quarter to the explication of all the various ways in which the word "grace" is used in Scripture.

Strong's calls grace "favor." When "unmerited" is added, the doctrine of Universalism morphs from it. But the apostles called grace, power.

Danielwright2311 · Dec 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
I take it you want to trample my pearls underfoot...

Trample your pearls? no, just remind you that if you are going to teach perfection, you have to be perfect your self.

What happens is you run people off from faith and belief as most people give up and say heck, I'm going to hell anyhow, I can not stop my sins, So I will not believe in God, there is no reason to believe.

OzSpen · Dec 13, 2018

to wrong poster

OzSpen · Dec 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
1 John 3:9 says, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

What do you say? Do you agree, or disagree? Take the poll.

cc: @Saint Steven

1CL,

I have come to this thread late and have not read the entire thread. Somebody may have already made this emphasis. If so, I apologise for repeating it.

1 John 3:9 (KJV) states: ‘Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God’.

The translators of the NIV have tried to convey the meaning of the Greek tenses more accurately in this verse, 1 John 3:9 (NIV): ‘No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God’.

The issues from 1 John 3:9 (NIV) are:

We are talking about those who are born again (favourite language of John), those who are ‘born of God’. We are talking about Christians who have been changed from the inside by God.
These Christians will not continue to sin as a lifestyle. They cannot go on sinning in that way. The Greek present tense verb indicates continuous action, so the NIV presents a good translation. The thought in this verse is NOT that Christians will never commit acts of sin. It is not saying that born again believers will not sin but that they will not persist in sin.
So, the born again believer cannot live in habitual sin.
BUT, there is the possibility of committing occasional acts of sin – as I can testify in my own life. If we commit those acts of sin, 1 John 1:9 (NIV) tells us what we are to do: ‘If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness’.

That’s my understanding of 1 John 3:9 and the Greek verb used. Also, it makes practical sense. We know from the preceding verse, 1 John 3:8 (ESV) that ‘whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil’. In other words, they have not been born of God.

From my article, Christians do not sin!

Oz

1stcenturylady · Dec 13, 2018

Danielwright2311 said:
Trample your pearls? no, just remind you that if you are going to teach perfection, you have to be perfect your self.

What happens is you run people off from faith and belief as most people give up and say heck, I'm going to hell anyhow, I can not stop my sins, So I will not believe in God, there is no reason to believe.

That's because you trust the false doctrine, and not the power of God to change you. There are many who just don't want to change, but not be condemned for it.

aiki · Dec 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
You have no idea how dangerous those dumb statements of those teachers are,

Oh? And how do you know this, exactly?

1stcenturylady said:
False doctrine is not treated any nicer by any of the apostles.

Are you an apostle? I don't recall any of the apostles saying so-and-so was dumb or clueless...It's interesting, though, how you justify your wrongdoing with such a pious association. This is why I always find it so...amusing when people say they are sinlessly perfect. Inevitably, they reveal they are anything but - just not to themselves. No, to themselves they erect all sorts of convenient excuses for their bad behaviour. False teachers must never admit error, you see.

1stcenturylady said:
Strong's calls grace "favor." When "unmerited" is added, the doctrine of Universalism morphs from it. But the apostles called grace, power.

Universalism is the consequence of a sentimental, human view of God's love and a diminished view of His holiness and justice (as well as some bad Bible exegesis). In any case, grace does have many more meanings in Scripture than just "power." Many. Grace does, in Scripture, sometimes mean "unmerited favour." Titus 3:5-6 spells out this sort of grace pretty clearly, I think.

AlexDTX · Dec 13, 2018

BCsenior said:
Nonsense ...
In many NT verses, eternal death refers to going to hell.
And what about the end of Hebrews 10,
re: those who draw back to perdition?

What do you want to prove? I agree that one can lose one's salvation. Do you want me to believe that it is very easy? I don't believe that. I believe it takes a long time of carnal living and trusting in the world instead of Christ.

eleos1954 · Dec 14, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
1 John 3:9 says, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

What do you say? Do you agree, or disagree? Take the poll.

cc: @Saint Steven

1 John 3:9

Anyone having been born of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to continue sinning, because he has been born of God.

That is ... sinning is not the trend of their life ... not that one will not sin at all.

God Bless.

1stcenturylady · Dec 14, 2018

eleos1954 said:
1 John 3:9

Anyone having been born of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to continue sinning, because he has been born of God.

That is ... sinning is not the trend of their life ... not that one will not sin at all.

God Bless.

You are using a modern translation that added the word "practice." That is a loop-hole of man. God is holy.

If you don't make a practice of adultery, is one time alright? What next? Murder?

KJV Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

That version shows it has been accurately translated.

John is preferencing "sin" above in the 4th verse as "lawlessness." That is against the Ten Commandments. As 1 John 5:16-17 says, there are sins unto death. That would be lawlessness. In the OT there was no sacrifices for the breaking of any law from the commandments - they stoned the perpertrator(s) to death - even an unruly teenager not honoring his parents! But there were also sins NOT UNTO DEATH. There was sacrifice for unintentional sins. Those are called, trespasses unwittingly committed (Leviticus 5:15), and even someone walking in the Spirit can commit a sin against someone and not even know their feelings were hurt. Those are debts, and what the Lord's Prayer is referring to - not sins of lawlessness. 1 John 1:7 shows those sins not unto death are continually being cleansed, but there is a condition we see in the Lord's Prayer - "as we forgive those who trespass against us." That forgiveness is what keeps fellowship with one another.

eleos1954 · Dec 14, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
You are using a modern translation that added the word "practice." That is a loop-hole of man. God is holy.

If you don't make a practice of adultery, is one time alright? What next? Murder?

KJV Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Did David commit adultery? Yes Did David commit murder? Yes

Did David repent of these sins and was forgiven? Yes

Did David continue these sins after repenting? Not that I have found

In the strongs Greek it is translated - practices and to continue sinning

1stcenturylady · Dec 14, 2018

eleos1954 said:
Did David commit adultery? Yes Did David commit murder? Yes

Did David repent of these sins and was forgiven? Yes

Did David continue these sins after repenting? Not that I have found

In the strongs Greek it is translated - practices and to continue sinning

David is old testament. Romans 3: For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Was there still death required for David's sin? Yes - his child.

You can take the slippery slope if you choose and not believe what I've presented. I'm not here to convince you - that would take the power of the Holy Spirit, and I'm not Him. I'm only here to declare the holiness and glory of God.

1 John 3:9, John says Christians cannot sin

1 John 3:9 says a Christian cannot sin.

Disagree, all Christians willfully sin

Disagree, only Jesus could not sin

Agree, through the power of the Spirit.

Agree, through knowledge of the Ten Commandments

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