Was Adam, God's 'First Contact' with an Intelligent, free willed, Life Form, other than Himself?

St_Worm2 · Dec 13, 2018

StevenMerten said:
If the 'sons of God' are angels, then who are the 'morning stars'?

The "Morning Stars" singing and the "sons of God" shouting for joy in Job 38 are two different names for the same group of beings, angels (and two different ways of describing the kind of excitement that these angels were expressing as they watched the Lord bring the rest of Creation into existence). I believe that is the traditional teaching of both your church and mine, that both the "morning stars" and the "sons of God" in Job 38:7 are the same group, the Heavenly Host, not human saints who have become omnipresent somehow.

As a bit of an aside, does the RCC teach that "saints" will end up with all of the Divine attributes of God in the age to come, including omnipresence, omniscience and omnipotence? If so, I believe that goes a LOT farther than the EOC's "Theosis" does.

Thanks again!

--David

StevenMerten · Dec 13, 2018

St_Worm2 said:
Question, you don't believe that Satan is a person or being (even though he is spoken of as if he is one by God), but you do believe that the others spoken of in Job (the morning stars/sons of God) in the same context as Satan is 'are' actual persons/beings? (IOW, saints and/or any other angel than Satan?)
--David

Can you not see that the Book of Job is an allegory about the Rise, Fall and Restoration of Israel?

St_Worm2 · Dec 13, 2018

StevenMerten said:
Can you not see that the Book of Job is an allegory about the Rise, Fall and Restoration of Israel?

I've never considered it as such. Is that what the RCC teaches about the Book of Job?

StevenMerten · Dec 13, 2018

St_Worm2 said:
I wish you had started this thread on a different board than OBOB, because having an open discussion here, for me, would most likely end up being problematic since I am not a RC. It's also why I am letting your church and the CCC do my talking for me for now

--David

Hello David,
I tried that. When the anti-Catholics did not get their way, they started desecrating The Blessed Mother as a 'false god' and Jesus' Holy Roman Catholic Church, as the 'Harlot of Babylon'.

It did not matter what we were talking about, the anti-Catholics just start throwing obscenities at what Jesus holds Sacred.

So that does not work.

St_Worm2 · Dec 13, 2018

StevenMerten said:
Hello David,
I tried that. When the anti-Catholics did not get their way, they started desecrating The Blessed Mother as a 'false god' and Jesus' Holy Roman Catholic Church, as the 'Harlot of Babylon'.

It did not matter what we were talking about, the anti-Catholics just start throwing obscenities at what Jesus holds Sacred.

So that does not work.

They attacked this particular subject of yours in that way? That kind of thing is not allowed at CF, of course, but I know that it is still done anyway. Sadly, it often stops what might have been an otherwise excellent discussion before it even begins and causes the thread to be closed.

I'll continue commenting here then, but please let me know the moment it looks like I'm going to cross a line that I should not be crossing as a non-RC. Thanks! (and if I do cross a line and/or offend anyone here with anything I say, just let me know and I will happily/quickly delete the offending comments)

--David

StevenMerten · Dec 13, 2018

St_Worm2 said:
Hi Steven, we just try to point out what the Bible seems to say .. cf John 6:44, 14:6; Acts 4:12, so that is where our expertise both begins and ends.

--David

Matthew 16
From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised. Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, 'God forbid, Lord! No such thing shall ever happen to you.' He turned and said to Peter, 'Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me. You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.'

Hello David,
Jesus clearly identifies St. Peter as 'Satan'. Am I to understand you, in that you believe that St. Peter was actually Satan?

We Catholics would say that Jesus is describing St. Peter as 'Satan' because St. Peter is trying to make Him stumble.

What do you say, was Satan in heaven literally, simply because the bible says he is? If you believe Satan is in heaven, how do you rectify Jesus saying, "I solemnly assure you, no one can see the reign of God unless he is begotten from above." Do you believe that Satan was begotten of God while he was there in heaven?

John 3:3
Jesus gave him this answer: "I solemnly assure you, no one can see the reign of God unless he is begotten from above." "How can a man be born again once he is old?" retorted Nicodemus. "Can he return to his mother's womb and be born over again?" Jesus replied: "I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into God's kingdom without being begotten of water and Spirit."

StevenMerten · Dec 13, 2018

Lamentations 2:1
How the Lord in his wrath has detested daughter Zion! He has cast down from heaven to earth the glory of Israel, Unmindful of his footstool on the day of his wrath. The Lord has consumed without pity all the dwellings of Jacob; He has torn down in his anger the fortresses of daughter Judah; He has brought to the ground in dishonor her king and her princes.

2 Kings 24:18
The LORD'S anger befell Jerusalem and Judah till he cast them out from his presence.

God was King and Ruler over Israel, from the Exodus till the fall of Judah in 587 B.C.. Upon the Fall of Israel, God put man's evil human pride in secular power, king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, as ruler over Israel. This fall of Israel is described as Israel being cast out of heaven, and onto earth.

Once Jesus is Crowned as King and Ruler, over Israel and the world, upon His Second Coming, Israel will be Restored. Jesus is Crowned King and Ruler of the world at the precise moment Archangel Michael now casts man's evil human pride in secular power, out of heaven. It is the king of Babylon, and his world dominant power successors, who now falls from heaven to earth, as our King of kings, Jesus Christ is enthroned as King and Ruler of the world. With a descendant of king David, again Ruling the world, Israel is lifted back up and Restored.

It is the Bride of the Lamb, Jesus Church, the Catholic Church, who will become the 'New Jerusalem' in Jesus' Restored Kingdom of Israel.

Isaiah 14:12 The King of Babylon.
How have you fallen from the heavens, O morning star, son of the dawn! How are you cut down to the ground, you who mowed down the nations! You said in your heart: 'I will scale the heavens; Above the stars of God I will set up my throne; I will take my seat on the Mount of Assembly, in the recesses of the North. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will be like the Most High!' Yet down to the nether world you go to the recesses of the pit!

When they see you they will stare, pondering over you: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, and kingdoms quake? Who made the world a desert, razed its cities, and gave his captives no release? All the kings of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb; But you are cast forth without burial, loathsome and corrupt,Clothed as those slain at sword-point, a trampled corpse. Going down to the pavement of the pit, you will never be one with them in the grave. For you have ruined your land, you have slain your people!

Daniel 2:31
'In your vision, O king, you saw a statue, very large and exceedingly bright, terrifying in appearance as it stood before you. The head of the statue was pure gold, its chest and arms were silver, its belly and thighs bronze, the legs iron, its feet partly iron and partly tile. While you looked at the statue, a stone which was hewn from a mountain without a hand being put to it, struck its iron and tile feet, breaking them in pieces. The iron, tile, bronze, silver, and gold all crumbled at once, fine as the chaff on the threshing floor in summer, and the wind blew them away without leaving a trace. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

Luke 20:17
'The stone which the builders rejected has become the keystone of the structure'? The man who falls on that stone will be smashed to pieces, It will make dust of anyone on whom it falls."

This was the dream; the interpretation we shall also give in the king's presence. You, O king, are the king of kings; to you the God of heaven has given dominion and strength, power and glory; men, wild beasts, and birds of the air, wherever they may dwell, he has handed over to you, making you ruler over them all; you are the head of gold.Another kingdom shall take your place, inferior to yours, then a third kingdom, of bronze, which shall rule over the whole earth. There shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron; it shall break in pieces and subdue all these others, just as iron breaks in pieces and crushes everything else. The feet and toes you saw, partly of potter's tile and partly of iron, mean that it shall be a divided kingdom, but yet have some of the hardness of iron. As you saw the iron mixed with clay tile, and the toes partly iron and partly tile, the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. The iron mixed with clay tile means that they shall seal their alliances by intermarriage, but they shall not stay united, any more than iron mixes with clay. In the lifetime of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed or delivered up to another people; rather, it shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and put an end to them, and it shall stand forever.

Revelation 12:6
Then war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels battled against the dragon. Although the dragon and his angels fought back, they were overpowered and lost their place in heaven. The huge dragon, the ancient serpent known as the devil or Satan, the seducer of the whole world, was driven out; he was hurled down to earth and his minions with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have salvation and power come, the reign of our God and the authority of his Anointed One.

St_Worm2 · Dec 13, 2018

StevenMerten said:
Jesus clearly identifies St. Peter as 'Satan'. Am I to understand you, in that you believe that St. Peter was actually Satan? We Catholics would say that Jesus is describing St. Peter as 'Satan' because St. Peter is trying to make Him stumble.

Hi Steven, I've gone back and forth about that, wondering if Jesus was addressing St. Peter or Satan directly (as the being who was controlling/oppressing .. or perhaps possessing? .. St. Peter at that moment?) when He said that.

StevenMerten said:
What do you say, was Satan in heaven literally, simply because the bible says he is? If you believe Satan is in heaven, how do you rectify Jesus saying, "I solemnly assure you, no one can see the reign of God unless he is begotten from above." Do you believe that Satan was begotten of God while he was there in heaven?

Only Jesus was begotten of God (and that eternally, of course), the rest of us (humans/angels) are created beings (most humans, save our progenitors, are also begotten of our human parents).

I believe Satan was/is in Heaven at times when he's done roaming about on the earth looking for ways to cause trouble for us (as the one who accuses the saints before God), but he will not always be. As the CCC testifies, Satan was created as a "good" angel (see again what the 2nd half of CCC 391 has to say about that here: Was Adam, God's 'First Contact' with an Intelligent, free willed, Life Form, other than Himself?).

Also, I don't believe that angels have a Savior like we do, so I do not believe that they will ever be able to be "born again" or "begotten from above" like we are.

--David

StevenMerten · Dec 13, 2018

St_Worm2 said:
They attacked this particular subject of yours in that way? That kind of thing is not allowed at CF, of course, but I know that it is still done anyway. Sadly, it often stops what might have been an otherwise excellent discussion before it even begins and causes the thread to be closed.

I'll continue commenting here then, but please let me know the moment it looks like I'm going to cross a line that I should not be crossing as a non-RC. Thanks! (and if I do cross a line and/or offend anyone here with anything I say, just let me know and I will happily/quickly delete the offending comments)

--David

Ok

StevenMerten · Dec 13, 2018

St_Worm2 said:
Hi Steven, I've gone back and forth about that, wondering if Jesus was addressing St. Peter or Satan directly (as the being who was controlling/oppressing .. or perhaps possessing? .. St. Peter at that moment?) when He said that.
--David

The point is that simply because scriptures identify Satan, does not mean that Satan, a winged angel with horns and a red tail was there.

In Revelation 12, we see that, what is described as "it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems", is really Herod, man's evil human pride in world dominant secular power. Man's evil human pride in secular power oppressing the descendants of Israel, to be exact.

Revelation 12:1
. A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems. Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.

Matthew 2:12
Herod is going to search for the child to destroy him.

REV 12 continued: She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne. The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days...

StevenMerten · Dec 13, 2018

St_Worm2 said:
Only Jesus was begotten of God (and that eternally, of course), the rest of us (humans/angels) are created beings (most humans, save our progenitors, are also begotten of our human parents).
--David

John 3:3
Jesus gave him this answer: "I solemnly assure you, no one can see the reign of God unless he is begotten from above." "How can a man be born again once he is old?" retorted Nicodemus. "Can he return to his mother's womb and be born over again?" Jesus replied: "I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into God's kingdom without being begotten of water and Spirit."

So you do not believe that one has to 'begotten from above', to go to heaven, as Jesus teaches? Saints are begotten of God to go to heaven. Only, like Jesus, and John the Baptist, Saints also are begotten of God at their resurrection, not during their life, so they can rub it in the noses of Catholics.

Matthew 11:11
"I solemnly assure you, history has not known a man born of woman greater than John the Baptizer. Yet the least born into the Kingdom of God is greater than he. From John the Baptizer's time until now the kingdom of God has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force."

Luke 16:16 The Law.
"The law and the prophets were in force until John. From his time on, the good news of God's kingdom has been proclaimed, and people of every sort are forcing their way in. It is easier for the heavens and the earth to pass away than for a single stroke of a letter of the law to pass.

Matthew 21:37
"Finally he sent his son to them, thinking, "They will respect my son.' When they saw the son, the tenants said to one another, 'Here is the one who will inherit everything. Let us kill him and then we shall have his inheritance!" With that they seized him, dragged him outside the vineyard, and killed him."

StevenMerten · Dec 13, 2018

Hello David,
In the Book of Revelation, we Catholics, see Jesus referring to His Catholic Bishops as 'Angels'. Are you ok with seeing the angels of Revelation as human Church leaders?

Or, do you think that 'angels' in heaven, need John to write it down for them?

Revelation 1:20
This is the secret meaning of the seven stars you saw in my right hand, and of the seven gold lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
Chapter 2
"To the angel of the church in Ephesus, write this: "'The one who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks in the midst of the seven gold lampstands...

Revelation 2:8
To the angel of the church in Smyrna, write this:
“‘The first and the last, who once died but came to life, says this: I know the slander of those who claim to be Jews and are not, but rather are members of the assembly of Satan. Do not be afraid of anything that you are going to suffer. Indeed, the devil will throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will face an ordeal for ten days. Remain faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Revelation 2:12
To the angel of the church in Pergamum, write this:
“‘The one with the sharp two-edged sword says this: is, and yet you hold fast to my name and have not denied your faith in me, not even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was martyred among you, where Satan lives. Yet I have a few things against you. You have some people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who instructed Balak to put a stumbling block before the Israelites: to eat food sacrificed to idols and to play the harlot. Likewise, you also have some people who hold to the teaching of [the] Nicolaitans. Therefore, repent. Otherwise, I will come to you quickly and wage waragainst them with the sword of my mouth.

trophy33 · Dec 14, 2018

StevenMerten said:
Mark 9:2
After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John and led them up a high mountain apart by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his clothes became dazzling white, such as no fuller on earth could bleach them. Then Elijah appeared to them along with Moses, and they were conversing with Jesus.

Hello Myst,
Wow! Elijah and Moses are alive, and not dead, even before Jesus died for their sins upon His future Crucifixion! Elijah and Moses are right there talking to Jesus during His life time!

Jesus uses the resurrection to show the Omnipotent Power of God. Jesus assures the Sadducees that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive, and not dead. We know that it is only through the Power of Jesus death on the Cross that St. Abraham, St. Isaac and St. Jacob can rise into eternal life after death. We know that Jesus is Eternally Begotten of God, First, and at His future, in physical time, Resurrection. Yet all these Saints are walking around, already, before Jesus death on the cross. Now that truly is an Omnipotent God!

Jesus tells us that Abraham has already seen Jesus, Coming into His Kingdom, even before Jesus glory on the cross has happened. We on, physical time earth, have yet to see Jesus Come into His Kingdom, on earth. That happens at our near future apocalypse.

In the spiritual realm, all this physical time stuff, that God created upon Creation, has no hold on Saints. We are not talking 'predestination'. We are talking about Saints no longer having any constraints by the laws of physical time that God built into the physical creation of the Universe. Saints, judged into heaven by Jesus, upon their deaths, on earth, live outside of physical time.

Do you agree that people judged into heaven, at any point in physical time, live in the spiritual realm, outside the confines of physical time? Therefore Saints can go and 'Shout for Joy' as Jesus and the Father bring Creation into existence.

Mark 12:18
Then some Sadducees who hold there is no resurrection came to him with a question ...\\...12:24 Jesus said: "You are badly misled, because you fail to understand the Scriptures or the power of God . When people rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but live like angels in heaven. As to the raising of the dead, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob'? He is the God of the living not of the dead, You are very much mistaken."

John 8:50
'Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.' (So) the Jews said to him, 'Now we are sure that you are possessed. Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, 'Whoever keeps my word will never taste death.' Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? Or the prophets, who died? Who do you make yourself out to be?' Jesus answered, 'If I glorify myself, my glory is worth nothing; but it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.' You do not know him, but I know him. And if I should say that I do not know him, I would be like you a liar. But I do know him and I keep his word. Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad. So the Jews said to him, 'You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them, 'Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.'

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct. Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
Luke 20:37
Moses in the passage about the bush showed that the dead rise again when he called the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. All are alive for him.

JOB 38:7
Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who streched out the measuring line for it? Into what were its pedestals sunk, and who laid the cornerstone, While the morning stars sang in chorus and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Deuteronomy 32:8
When the Most High assigned the nations their heritage, when he parceled out the descendants of Adam, He set up the boundaries of the peoples after the number of the sons of God; While the LORD'S own portion was Jacob,His hereditary share was Israel.

Wisdom 5:5
See how he is accounted among the sons of God; how his lot is with the saints!

I do not know what we will be able to do when we die and how we will be able to see the spacetime. We can speculate, but we do not know.

While you seem to imagine it as being outside of the universe, I can imagine it as being in a higher dimension like angels are (and they are in time).

Tolworth John · Dec 14, 2018

StevenMerten said:
a glory I had with you before the world began."

As Jesus created everything this clearly shows that he is eternal.

StevenMerten · Dec 14, 2018

Tolworth John said:
As Jesus created everything this clearly shows that he is eternal.

Hello John,
Do you agree that Jesus, unlike God the Father, is Eternally Begotten of God? Scripture indicates that Jesus is Eternally Begotten of God upon His Resurrection. Do you agree with scripture on this?

Do you think that our Spiritual God and Creator is restricted by the physical realm, which is restricted by the physical laws of physical time, in any way? God exists outside of physical time which He Created. God can hold the whole of the universe, from Creation to the end of physical time, in the palm of His Hand. God is Omni-Present to the whole of physical time.

Once Jesus is Eternally Begotten of God, upon His Resurrection, He to now exists as Eternal God, with God the Father, in spiritual existence outside of physical time, and through Jesus, all Creation comes into existence.

Do we agree? If not, how do you read the scriptures which tell us of Jesus being Eternally Begotten of God upon His Resurrection?

Psalms 2:4
He who is throned in heaven laughs; the LORD derides them; Then in anger he speaks to them; he terrifies them in his wrath: "I myself have set up my king on Zion, my holy mountain. I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: The LORD said to me, 'You are my son; this day I have begotten you. Ask of me and I will give you the nations for an inheritance and the ends of the earth for your possession. You shall rule them with an iron rod: you shall shatter them like an earthen dish.'"

Acts 13:32
"We ourselves announce to you the good news that what God promised our fathers he has fulfilled for us, their children, in raising up Jesus, according to what is written in the second psalm, You are my son; this day I have begotten you."

1 Peter 3:18
He was put to death insofar as fleshly existence goes, but was given life in the realm of the spirit.

Hebrews 1:5 Messianic Enthronement.
To which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my son; today I have begotten you"? Or again, "I will be his father, and he shall be my son"? And again, when he leads his first-born into the world, he says, "Let all the angels of God worship him."

John 17:4
"I have given you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. Do you now, Father, give me glory at your side, a glory I had with you before the world began."

Matthew 28:18 (Jesus is speaking after His resurrection.)
Jesus came forward and addressed them in these words: "Full authority has been given to me both in heaven and on earth. . . ."

Acts 2:33
"Exalted at God's right hand, he first received the promised Holy Spirit from the Father, then poured this Spirit out on us. This is what you now see and hear. David did not go up to heaven, yet David says,
'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. Therefore let the whole house of Israel know beyond any doubt that God has made both Lord and Messiah this Jesus whom you crucified.'

Revelation 1:4 Greetings.
To the seven churches in the province of Asia: John wishes you grace and peace -- from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before the throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the first-born from the dead and ruler of the kings of earth.

Psalms 89:27
"He shall say of me, 'You are my father, my God, the Rock, my savior.' And I will make him the first-born, highest of the kings of the earth."

Tolworth John · Dec 14, 2018

StevenMerten said:
Do you agree with scripture on this?

You are majoring in a minor issue.

Jesus is the 2nd person of the trinity. He is The Son of God.
That he has the title of only begotton of the Father is interesting, but doesn't change the fact the he is God the Son.

StevenMerten · Dec 14, 2018

myst33 said:
I do not know what we will be able to do when we die and how we will be able to see the spacetime. We can speculate, but we do not know.

While you seem to imagine it as being outside of the universe, I can imagine it as being in a higher dimension like angels are (and they are in time).

Hello David,
It is not me, it is Jesus who says we will live like angels in heaven.

How do you read John 8? Before Jesus dies on the cross for Abraham's sins in physical time, Jesus tells us Abraham is not dead waiting to rise, but alive. Jesus tells us Abraham has already seen 'Jesus Day', meaning Jesus Glory in His Second Coming. We today, in physical time on earth, have not even yet seen Jesus Come in His Glory. Yes, Jesus is talking about Abraham, once resurrected into the spiritual realm, is not bound by physical time. Nor is our Omnipotent God, who exists in the Spiritual Realm, restricted to waiting till after Jesus' death on the cross in physical time, to pour out Jesus saving blood upon Abraham, to forgive him of his sins, and resurrect Abraham into eternal life.

Jesus Resurrects into eternal life First and before all others. So Abraham already having become a saint, is Abraham, and Jesus, already existing in eternal life, which Jesus receives First at His future Resurrection. Can you see how Saints live in the spiritual realm, outside of the physical confines of physical time?

Mark 12:18
Then some Sadducees who hold there is no resurrection came to him with a question ...\\...12:24 Jesus said: "You are badly misled, because you fail to understand the Scriptures or the power of God . When people rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but live like angels in heaven. As to the raising of the dead, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob'? He is the God of the living not of the dead, You are very much mistaken."

John 8:50
'Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.' (So) the Jews said to him, 'Now we are sure that you are possessed. Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, 'Whoever keeps my word will never taste death.' Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? Or the prophets, who died? Who do you make yourself out to be?'Jesus answered, 'If I glorify myself, my glory is worth nothing; but it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.' You do not know him, but I know him. And if I should say that I do not know him, I would be like you a liar. But I do know him and I keep his word. Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad. So the Jews said to him, 'You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them, 'Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.'

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct. Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Luke 20:37
Moses in the passage about the bush showed that the dead rise again when he called the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. All are alive for him.

StevenMerten · Dec 14, 2018

Tolworth John said:
You are majoring in a minor issue.

Jesus is the 2nd person of the trinity. He is The Son of God.
That he has the title of only begotton of the Father is interesting, but doesn't change the fact the he is God the Son.

Hello John,
So you do not believe scriptures which tell us that Jesus was Eternally Begotten of God? You think this is only a title?

trophy33 · Dec 14, 2018

StevenMerten said:
Hello David,
It is not me, it is Jesus who says we will live like angels in heaven.

How do you read John 8? Before Jesus dies on the cross for Abraham's sins in physical time, Jesus tells us Abraham is not dead waiting to rise, but alive. Jesus tells us Abraham has already seen 'Jesus Day', meaning Jesus Glory in His Second Coming. We today, in physical time on earth, have not even yet seen Jesus Come in His Glory. Yes, Jesus is talking about Abraham, once resurrected into the spiritual realm, is not bound by physical time. Nor is our Omnipotent God, who exists in the Spiritual Realm, restricted to waiting till after Jesus' death on the cross in physical time, to pour out Jesus saving blood upon Abraham, to forgive him of his sins, and resurrect Abraham into eternal life.

Jesus Resurrects into eternal life First and before all others. So Abraham already having become a saint, is Abraham, and Jesus, already existing in eternal life, which Jesus receives First at His future Resurrection. Can you see how Saints live in the spiritual realm, outside of the physical confines of physical time?

Mark 12:18
Then some Sadducees who hold there is no resurrection came to him with a question ...\\...12:24 Jesus said: "You are badly misled, because you fail to understand the Scriptures or the power of God . When people rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but live like angels in heaven. As to the raising of the dead, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob'? He is the God of the living not of the dead, You are very much mistaken."

John 8:50
'Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.' (So) the Jews said to him, 'Now we are sure that you are possessed. Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, 'Whoever keeps my word will never taste death.' Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? Or the prophets, who died? Who do you make yourself out to be?'Jesus answered, 'If I glorify myself, my glory is worth nothing; but it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.' You do not know him, but I know him. And if I should say that I do not know him, I would be like you a liar. But I do know him and I keep his word. Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad. So the Jews said to him, 'You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them, 'Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.'

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct. Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Luke 20:37
Moses in the passage about the bush showed that the dead rise again when he called the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. All are alive for him.

But its you who assings meanings to words like "angel", "heaven" etc. It does not have to mean logical contradictions with time as you propose. Nothing in the Bible says that angels are not in our spacetime.

P.S. I am not David ;-)

StevenMerten · Dec 14, 2018

myst33 said:
But its you who assings meanings to words like "angel", "heaven" etc. It does not have to mean logical contradictions with time as you propose. Nothing in the Bible says that angels are not in our spacetime.

P.S. I am not David ;-)

sorry about the name.

Ok myst, you explain to me how Abraham is not dead but alive, during Jesus' life on earth before His death on the cross, and Abraham has already seen Jesus' day.

John 8:50
'Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.' (So) the Jews said to him, 'Now we are sure that you are possessed. Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, 'Whoever keeps my word will never taste death.' Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? Or the prophets, who died? Who do you make yourself out to be?'Jesus answered, 'If I glorify myself, my glory is worth nothing; but it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.' You do not know him, but I know him. And if I should say that I do not know him, I would be like you a liar. But I do know him and I keep his word. Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad. So the Jews said to him, 'You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them, 'Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.'

Was Adam, God's 'First Contact' with an Intelligent, free willed, Life Form, other than Himself?

Was Adam, God's 'First Contact' with an Intelligent, free will, Life Form, Other than Himself?

Yes

No

Simul Justus et Peccator

I Love You, God!

Simul Justus et Peccator

I Love You, God!

Simul Justus et Peccator

I Love You, God!

I Love You, God!

Simul Justus et Peccator

I Love You, God!

I Love You, God!

I Love You, God!

I Love You, God!

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