Denomination/Doctrine differences

thecolorsblend said:

What makes you say that?

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The fact that we are all human and fallible. Do you have a candidate organization that you think has no error in any doctrine? Of course I can't rule out as a possibility that someone, somewhere, has been supernaturally protected from making any doctrinal error. And of course I try to associate with those that I think have no major errors and few minor ones. But I do expect to laugh for half an hour when I get to heaven and find the truth about the issues we debate here.

Of the Kingdom said:

The fact that we are all human and fallible. Do you have a candidate organization that you think has no error in any doctrine? Of course I can't rule out as a possibility that someone, somewhere, has been supernaturally protected from making any doctrinal error. And of course I try to associate with those that I think have no major errors and few minor ones. But I do expect to laugh for half an hour when I get to heaven and find the truth about the issues we debate here.

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Oh. That's unfortunate. I guess I took St. John 16:13 a bit too literally and expected the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth; not some truth or a lot of truth or most truth but all truth.

Seriously though, with the dizzying number of options in the Christian marketplace (20,000 and counting), it's kind of silly to suggest that at least one isn't exactly right. The numbers just don't favor that.

I realize that suggesting that everybody is both equally right and equally wrong so can't we all just affirm each other is a shiny, happy, friendly thing to say but unfortunately it really bears no similarity whatsoever to reality.

shinoobi said:

Thanks for the reply. If I may ask, how do you then believe?

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By FAITH my brother.

Rom 12:3 says...…….
" ... God has allotted to each a measure of faith.”

Rom 10:17 says ……..
" ... faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of Christ."

So faith is a gift from God that we receive from the word of Christ, which in this dispensation we get from the Bible rather than from a burning bush. So in His time He will allot faith to us as needed from the word of the Bible. In 2 Cor 10:15 we see that faith can grow, so as we study the Bible God can add to our faith.

Rom 5:1 says, ……….
" ... justified by faith" and Rom 4:5 says, " ... his faith is counted as righteousness".

We clearly see from these verses that faith is not of our doing for that would be a works-based salvation and we know from Eph 2:8, 9 that salvation is surely not from works.

However Eph 2:8 says something else that I never hear proclaimed and that is...…
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.”

In Eph 2:8 the "it" refers back to faith, which is consistent with Rom 12:3 and the other scriptures above and speakers very seldom talk about that. Faith is a gift from God.

Rom 3:28 also says,...……..
" ... a man is justified by faith."

We read in Rom 9:32 that Israel did not arrive at righteousness because they did not pursue righteous by faith but as though it were by works. If we must muster up our own faith then justification is by works and again we know that is not correct. We also see in

Heb 12:2 that...….
" ...Jesus is the author and perfecter of faith."

That fits in nicely with what we have already seen. Jesus is not only the author -- the originator of faith --; He is also the one who perfects it in us.

Dave-W said:

Shinoobi - what you are experiencing is the result of the early church fathers distancing themselves from the Jewish roots of the Christian faith. It put the New Covenant faith into a Greek model which is abstract and follows deductive logic. The Hebrew model it came from was NOT abstract at all; rather, everything was defined relationally. And it used ADDUCTIVE (aka "block") logic.

Just like a boat that has its anchor rope cut, the church has drifted in all sorts of ways; and with the protestant reformation/break-up, various groups have drifted in every way imaginable.

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The Jewish roots were distanced the moment the Jews as whole began to unbelieve and the Gentiles were incorporated in. The New Covenant for Gentiles is not abstract, not only a matter of thought but of action which was born out time and time again by the Fathers and those in the Church. Christ introduced a new way of being, not merely a new type of Judaism.

We won't agree, but the anchor, Christ, was always connected to the ship of the Church and was never detached or cut away. Peripheral elements, circumcision and Kosher for instance , were however.

It is not for any human to judge the state of another's soul. That judgment is up to God alone.
Nevertheless, Paul called the Galatians fools for abandoning what he had taught them. They were thinking they had to obey the 613 Jewish laws in order to be saved. It mattered to him what they believed. Paul did not trust his own understanding, so he went to the apostles (Acts 15) for an authoritative decision about what he should teach.

I do believe that some Christians have more of what the apostles actually taught than others and that believing the wrong thing can have serious consequences. Since we are all called to be holy, it is important that I have as much help and graces as possible. I believe I get that from the Catholic faith. There is a lot of false propaganda against the Catholic beliefs, but if you read what Catholics actually believe, you would see that it is the best explanation of what Scripture actually says. It has the historical proof that it is the faith that the apostles taught. It has sacramental graces that aid growth in holiness. It has certainty of the truth of its doctrines that it will never sell out to the latest fad or political correct ideas. These are some of the reasons I could never be any thing but Catholic.

Truth Lover said:

It is not for any human to judge the state of another's soul. That judgment is up to God alone.
Nevertheless, Paul called the Galatians fools for abandoning what he had taught them. They were thinking they had to obey the 613 Jewish laws in order to be saved. It mattered to him what they believed. Paul did not trust his own understanding, so he went to the apostles (Acts 15) for an authoritative decision about what he should teach.

I do believe that some Christians have more of what the apostles actually taught than others and that believing the wrong thing can have serious consequences. Since we are all called to be holy, it is important that I have as much help and graces as possible. I believe I get that from the Catholic faith. There is a lot of false propaganda against the Catholic beliefs, but if you read what Catholics actually believe, you would see that it is the best explanation of what Scripture actually says. It has the historical proof that it is the faith that the apostles taught. It has sacramental graces that aid growth in holiness. It has certainty of the truth of its doctrines that it will never sell out to the latest fad or political correct ideas. These are some of the reasons I could never be any thing but Catholic.

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I appreciate your thinking.

However, you said...……..
" you would see that it is the best explanation of what Scripture actually says."

Surely you know that is quite impossible my dear and I do not say that to argue with you or disrespect you. It is simply not the case and if you would like for me to list about 30 or more NON BIBLICAL teaching/practices that the Catholic church participates, please ask and I will be glad to do that for you.

Lets do just one.

1 Timothy 3:2-3...…….
"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity".

Now the Catholic church forbids its bishops and priests to be married. But the Bible says that they MUST be married.

We do not have to go any further beause right there we see that the RCC does not follow the Written Word of God.

shinoobi said:

Hi All,

I have something troubling me. I am perhaps asking this to the ones who believes the same as I do. I believe that we are saved by grace through faith and the only way to the Farther is through Jesus Christ.
..."doomed"

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I am not sure if you are representing various groups correctly. Please, document your claims from quoting the statement of faith of each group.

Thanks,
Daniel

shinoobi said:

That is what I am not sure of. I am just struggling to really find an answer that I am comfortable with.

If one truly in their heart serves God to the best they can and know, should they also be saved?

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"We’ve mentioned that we need sanctifying grace in our souls if we’re to be equipped for heaven. Another way of saying this is that we need to be justified. "But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God" (1 Cor. 6:11). " Grace: What It Is and What It Does | Catholic Answers

shinoobi said:

That is what I am not sure of. I am just struggling to really find an answer that I am comfortable with.

If one truly in their heart serves God to the best they can and know, should they also be saved?

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NO! THis is actually not up for debate.

You asked...……….

You are saying that "WORKS" can save us.

The ONLY way a person gets to heaven is by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

John 14:6...………
"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Defend the Faith

2 Timothy 2:15 (NASB
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman
who does not need to be ashamed,
accurately handling the "word of truth".

1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Of the Kingdom said:

The fact that we are all human and fallible. Do you have a candidate organization that you think has no error in any doctrine?

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Everyone "should" have such a candidate organization and it should be their own.

It would be silly to belong to a denomination that you knew to be in doctrinal error simply because you like the decorations and social events

Of course I can't rule out as a possibility that someone, somewhere, has been supernaturally protected from making any doctrinal error.

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Supernatural protection from doctrinal error most often came in the form of God sending a prophet or an inspired apostle as a contemporary and correcting 'current deviations'.


So then... might want to look for that.

shinoobi said:

That is what I am not sure of. I am just struggling to really find an answer that I am comfortable with.

If one truly in their heart serves God to the best they can and know, should they also be saved?

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Yes - see Romans 2 and James 4:17.

Romans 2
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

But it is easier said than done because in Gal 6 we have this

Gal 6
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

God knows if such a one has been exposed to truth - and is rejecting it.

2 Thess 2
9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Doctrine is important and should be Biblical.

Doctrinal Statement - Dallas Theological Seminary

Major1 said:

NO! THis is actually not up for debate.

You asked...……….

"If one truly in their heart serves God to the best they can and know".​

You are saying that "WORKS" can save us.

The ONLY way a person gets to heaven is by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

John 14:6...………
"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

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Actually, this is absolutely open for debate. It has been debated for the past 500 years. It really is a matter of semantics. Catholics believe in justification by faith and works. Protestants believe that works are proof of your faith. If you are a tree that never bears fruit, then you never had faith to begin with. Remember, even satan has faith.

bobk said:

Actually, this is absolutely open for debate. It has been debated for the past 500 years. It really is a matter of semantics. Catholics believe in justification by faith and works. Protestants believe that works are proof of your faith. If you are a tree that never bears fruit, then you never had faith to begin with. Remember, even satan has faith.

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The question was whether someone can be saved that does not have every tiny little detail in the story -- exactly as you have.

For example lots of OT saints in Hebrews 11 that would not know the phrase "Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ".