1 John 3:9, John says Christians cannot sin

1stcenturylady · Dec 13, 2018

Danielwright2311 said:
Do you believe Jesus is the son of God? Do you believe Jesus died and was resurrected three days later?

If you do, you are saved from hell just as Jesus said we are. He is the one who said it and yes, I believe it.

Don't you know the demons believe that too. Believe is more than head knowledge, it is heart knowledge to which we obey. There is action involved, not just passive.

There is another post called "there is no such thing as "believing" for salvation." Granted we didn't get too far into it, but you will learn a little of what the word actually means. There will be a better post, more concise, less disjointed, being prepared by the OP for after Christmas.

Danthemailman · Dec 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
Hmmmm. Paul says to not grieve the Spirit, and you want to focus on AT Robertson's defeatist rebuttal?

Paul said grieve the Spirit, not lose the Spirit. Whenever you grieved your parents as a child did they permanently kick you out of the house? AT Robertson is a realist and not a defeatist. Believing in sinless perfection is not being a realist and leaves you defeated (1 John 1:8-10)

What I see is draw BACK. Back from where? They had been sanctified, but could draw back to perdition.

From being an active participant in the Christian community of Hebrews believers, but who has renounced his identification with these believers. Those who draw back to perdition DO NOT believe to the saving of the soul. (verse 39). Hebrews 10:10 - By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10:14 - For by one offering he hath perfected forever/for all time them that are sanctified. Does "draw back to perdition" sound like sanctified once for all/perfected forever/for all time to you? I didn't think so.

So once again, after considering the context, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" (verse 29) should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a participant among the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but who has committed apostasy by renouncing their identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that they had received (verse 26), and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. Not a believer.

It seems you believe you can be a slave to sin and the devil, and belong to Christ at the same time. I don't.

You seem to believe that you have already received your glorified body and that the flesh no longer sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh and are in opposition to one another. I guess for you the struggle is not real. No offense, but it sounds to me like you have some serious self righteous issues.

Ever since Adam sinned, mankind has inherited a sin nature and fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8). But that is what Jesus came to fix, not leave us in weakness.

We will be completely fixed when we receive our glorified bodies. (1 Corinthians 15:51-57)

John 8:34-36 "Jesus answered them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.'"

Once again, Greek scholar AT Robertson can help with your confusion - Every one that committeth sin is the bondservant of sin (pa o poiwn thn amartian doulo estin [th amartia]. The Western class omits th amartia (sin), but that is the idea anyhow. Note the use of poiwn (present active participle, continuous habit or practice), not poihsa (aorist active participle for single act), precisely as in 1 John 3:4-8. :oldthumbsup:

1 John 3:5 "And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin."

1 John 3:8 "He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

1 John 3:8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. (NASB) *See post #192

Danthemailman · Dec 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
Don't you know the demons believe that too.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

Believe is more than head knowledge, it is heart knowledge to which we obey. There is action involved, not just passive.

It's true that believing is more that just head knowledge. One can believe that Jesus exists, is the Son of God and that His death, burial and resurrection "happened." That is merely believing in your head and even the demons believe this. Believing in our head turns into believing in our heart when we trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. :oldthumbsup:

Obedience which follows is works and guess what? We are not saved by works, but FOR good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

There is another post called "there is no such thing as "believing" for salvation." Granted we didn't get too far into it, but you will learn a little of what the word actually means. There will be a better post, more concise, less disjointed, being prepared by the OP for after Christmas.

Saving belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief. Be sure to read post #167 in that thread. - No such thing as " believing " for salvation .

1stcenturylady · Dec 13, 2018

Danthemailman said:
Paul said grieve the Spirit, not lose the Spirit. Whenever you grieved your parents as a child did they permanently kick you out of the house? AT Robertson is a realist and not a defeatist. Believing in sinless perfection is not being a realist. (1 John 1:8-10)

ROFL, are you really going to show 1 John 1:8-10 again?

1 Thessalonians 5:19
Do not quench the Spirit.

Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

There is a difference between quenching and grieving.

Danthemailman said:
Does "draw back to perdition" sound like sanctified once for all/perfected forever/for all time to you? I didn't think so.

Asked and answered. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Paul, wasn't just flapping his gums. It was a warning.

Danthemailman said:
1 John 3:8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. (NASB) *See post #192

The NASB added the word "practice" to verse 9. It is commit in the original. Looks like translators have your bias.

1stcenturylady · Dec 13, 2018

Danthemailman said:
In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

It's true that believing is more that just head knowledge. One can believe that Jesus exists, is the Son of God and that His death, burial and resurrection "happened." That is merely believing in your head and even the demons believe this. Believing in our head turns into believing in our heart when we trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Obedience which follows is works and guess what? We are not saved by works, but FOR good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Saving belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief. Be sure to read post #167 in that thread. - No such thing as " believing " for salvation .

It is interesting that you were just being argumentative in the first paragraph, but admitted that demons just have head knowledge in the second. Our works are what we do naturally from our new nature. Our works are by the Spirit, not of ourselves.

Danielwright2311 · Dec 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
Don't you know the demons believe that too. Believe is more than head knowledge, it is heart knowledge to which we obey. There is action involved, not just passive.

There is another post called "there is no such thing as "believing" for salvation." Granted we didn't get too far into it, but you will learn a little of what the word actually means. There will be a better post, more concise, less disjointed, being prepared by the OP for after Christmas.

Demons do not believe Jesus died for them, Scripture says They don't believe.

You are calling Jesus a liar when he said if you believe I died and was rose again and am the son of God then you are saved.

Jesus said, there is one sin that is not forgiven, just one, and that is belief.

You are saying I must be not a sinner to be saved, but you are a sinner, so how will you be saved?

1stcenturylady · Dec 13, 2018

Danielwright2311 said:
Demons do not believe Jesus died for them, Scripture says They don't believe.

You are calling Jesus a liar when he said if you believe I died and was rose again and am the son of God then you are saved.

Jesus said, there is one sin that is not forgiven, just one, and that is belief.

You are saying I must be not a sinner to be saved, but you are a sinner, so how will you be saved?

I'm not calling Jesus a liar, I just happen to know what he meant.

Danielwright2311 · Dec 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
I'm not calling Jesus a liar, I just happen to know what he meant.

So then, tell me, how will you be saved from your sins then? you not answering my question.

1stcenturylady · Dec 13, 2018

Danielwright2311 said:
So then, tell me, how will you be saved from your sins then? you not answering my question.

By truly repenting of all sin - the sin nature - unto Christ. This a demon could not do. That is when Jesus will give you the Holy Spirit to change you from the inside, giving you a new nature that hates sin. You will be born again of the Spirit to follow. We are commanded not to quench the Spirit, for He is what makes us belong to Christ. Romans 8:9

Repentance is the reason why John the Baptist came first, preparing the way to Jesus. It is key.

1stcenturylady · Dec 13, 2018

BBL, I'm going back to bed.

Danielwright2311 · Dec 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
By truly repenting of all sin - the sin nature - unto Christ. This a demon could not do. That is when Jesus will give you the Holy Spirit to change you from the inside, giving you a new nature that hates sin. You will be born again of the Spirit to follow. We are commanded not to quench the Spirit, for He is what makes us belong to Christ. Romans 8:9

Repentance is the reason why John the Baptist came first, preparing the way to Jesus. It is key.

Still, you sin, you say you've changed, so you don't sin? are you saying you don't sin?

Danthemailman · Dec 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
By truly repenting of all sin - the sin nature - unto Christ. This a demon could not do. That is when Jesus will give you the Holy Spirit to change you from the inside, giving you a new nature that hates sin. You will be born again of the Spirit to follow. We are commanded not to quench the Spirit, for He is what makes us belong to Christ. Romans 8:9

Repentance is the reason why John the Baptist came first, preparing the way to Jesus. It is key.

So if you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, your answer would be because you repented from ALL sin and live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time?

Danielwright2311 · Dec 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
By truly repenting of all sin - the sin nature - unto Christ. This a demon could not do. That is when Jesus will give you the Holy Spirit to change you from the inside, giving you a new nature that hates sin. You will be born again of the Spirit to follow. We are commanded not to quench the Spirit, for He is what makes us belong to Christ. Romans 8:9

Repentance is the reason why John the Baptist came first, preparing the way to Jesus. It is key.

But you still can not answer my question.

Do you sin, yes or no?

Danthemailman · Dec 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
BBL, I'm going back to bed.

Danielwright2311 said:
But you still can not answer my question.

Do you sin, yes or no?

I guess she will sleep on it, then get back to you with an answer.

AlexDTX · Dec 13, 2018

BCsenior said:
Great! ... but what do we do with all of those
NT verses which warn of losing salvation?

Apart from Hebrews, most of those verses refer to losing the benefit of our salvation in this life. Hebrews 5, however, seems to refer to reach a point of reprobation where there is no repentance. This goes along with Jesus saying that all manner of sins will be forgiven except the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. He said that to the scribes and pharisees who claimed his miracles were done by Satan (Beelzebub). When a person no longer can tell the difference between good and evil, he is reprobate. Isaiah said, Woe unto you that call good evil, and evil good. But such a state for one who has tasted the heavenly powers through the new birth is extreme. There would have to be a root of bitterness that grew deeply in the heart through unforgiveness.

Danthemailman · Dec 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
ROFL, are you really going to show 1 John 1:8-10 again?

1 John 1:8-10 is crystal clear.

1 Thessalonians 5:19
Do not quench the Spirit.

Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

There is a difference between quenching and grieving.

*Notice in verse 30 - sealed for the day of redemption. Does that sound like un-sealed prior to the day of redemption to you?

What about Ephesians 1:13-14? - sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Asked and answered. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Paul, wasn't just flapping his gums. It was a warning.

To "draw back to perdition" does not equate to sanctified once for all/perfected forever/for all time. It certainly is a warning for those who "draw back to perdition" and do not believe to the saving of the soul. Living a life of fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life. (2 Timothy 1:7)

The NASB added the word "practice" to verse 9. It is commit in the original. Looks like translators have your bias.

Your argument sounds like sinless perfection bias. Once again:

Doeth no sin hamartian (NT:263) ou (NT:3708) poiei (NT:4109). Linear present active indicative as in 1 John 3:4 like hamartanei (NT:261) in 1 John 3:8. The child of God does not have the habit of sin.” (from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament)

1 John 3:9 And he cannot sin kai (NT:2498) ou (NT:3708) dunatai (NT:1394) hamartanein (NT:261). This is a wrong translation, for this English naturally means "and he cannot commit sin" as if it were kai (NT:2498) ou (NT:3708) dunatai (NT:1394) hamartein (NT:261) or hamarteesai (NT:261) (second aorist or first aorist active infinitive). The present active infinitive hamartanein (NT:261) can only mean "and he cannot go on sinning," as is true of hamartanei (NT:261) in 1 John 3:8 and hamartanoon (NT:261) in 1 John 3:6. For the aorist subjunctive to commit a sin see hamarteete (NT:261) and hamartee (NT:261) in 1 John 2:1. A great deal of false theology has grown out of a misunderstanding of the tense of hamartanein (NT:261) here. Paul has precisely John's idea in Romans 6:1 epimenoomen (NT:1936) tee (NT:3543) hamartia (NT:263) (shall we continue in sin, present active linear subjunctive) in contrast with hamarteesoomen (NT:261) in Romans 6:15 (shall we commit a sin, first aorist active subjunctive). from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament)

If 1 John 3:9 means that those who are born of God NEVER sin at all (sinless perfection) then we have a contradiction with 1 John 2:1, which reads - My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. (So nobody is forced to sin 24/7--the devil made me do it etc..) And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (Wait a minute, IF anyone sins? How could that be possible if 1 John 3:9 means those who are born of God never sin at all?)

Contradiction!

1stcenturylady · Dec 13, 2018

Danthemailman said:
1 John 1:8-10 is crystal clear.

*Notice in verse 30 - sealed for the day of redemption. Does that sound like un-sealed prior to the day of redemption to you? What about Ephesians 1:13-14? - sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

To "draw back to perdition" does not equate to sanctified once for all/perfected forever/for all time. It certainly is a warning for those who "draw back to perdition" and do not believe to the saving of the soul. Living a life of fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life. (2 Timothy 1:7)

Your argument sounds like sinless perfection bias. Once again:

Doeth no sin hamartian (NT:263) ou (NT:3708) poiei (NT:4109). Linear present active indicative as in 1 John 3:4 like hamartanei (NT:261) in 1 John 3:8. The child of God does not have the habit of sin.” (from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament)

1 John 3:9 And he cannot sin kai (NT:2498) ou (NT:3708) dunatai (NT:1394) hamartanein (NT:261). This is a wrong translation, for this English naturally means "and he cannot commit sin" as if it were kai (NT:2498) ou (NT:3708) dunatai (NT:1394) hamartein (NT:261) or hamarteesai (NT:261) (second aorist or first aorist active infinitive). The present active infinitive hamartanein (NT:261) can only mean "and he cannot go on sinning," as is true of hamartanei (NT:261) in 1 John 3:8 and hamartanoon (NT:261) in 1 John 3:6. For the aorist subjunctive to commit a sin see hamarteete (NT:261) and hamartee (NT:261) in 1 John 2:1. A great deal of false theology has grown out of a misunderstanding of the tense of hamartanein (NT:261) here. Paul has precisely John's idea in Romans 6:1 epimenoomen (NT:1936) tee (NT:3543) hamartia (NT:263) (shall we continue in sin, present active linear subjunctive) in contrast with hamarteesoomen (NT:261) in Romans 6:15 (shall we commit a sin, first aorist active subjunctive). from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament)

If 1 John 3:9 means that those who are born of God NEVER sin at all (sinless perfection) then we have a contradiction with 1 John 2:1, which reads - My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. (So nobody is forced to sin 24/7--the devil made me do it etc..) And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (Wait a minute, IF anyone sins? How could that be possible if 1 John 3:9 means those who are born of God never sin at all?) Contradiction!

1 John 2:1 says that it is possible to not sin, but you disregard it. Jesus is our Advocate for what type of sin? What type of sin requires no repentance?

1stcenturylady · Dec 13, 2018

Danielwright2311 said:
But you still can not answer my question.

Do you sin, yes or no?

I take it you want to trample my pearls underfoot...

Danthemailman · Dec 13, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
1 John 2:1 says that it is impossible to not sin, but you disregard it.

I thought you believed that it is impossible to sin as a child of God?

Jesus is our Advocate for what type of sin? What type of sin requires no repentance?

Jesus is our Advocate for sin in general. John did not say that Jesus is only our Advocate for certain types of sin. Repentance is not defined as sinless perfection.

Once again: And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (Wait a minute, IF anyone sins? How could that be possible if 1 John 3:9 means those who are born of God never sin at all?)

Contradiction!

1stcenturylady · Dec 13, 2018

Danthemailman said:
I thought you believed that it is impossible to sin as a child of God?

Jesus is our Advocate for sin in general. John did not say that Jesus is only our Advocate for certain types of sin. Repentance is not defined as sinless perfection.

Once again: And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (Wait a minute, IF anyone sins? How could that be possible if 1 John 3:9 means those who are born of God never sin at all?) Contradiction!

ROFL

I meant it is possible to not sin. I'll go back and change that! You guys must be rubbing off of me. (Not!)

1 John 3:9, John says Christians cannot sin

1 John 3:9 says a Christian cannot sin.

Disagree, all Christians willfully sin

Disagree, only Jesus could not sin

Agree, through the power of the Spirit.

Agree, through knowledge of the Ten Commandments

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