Pre-Tribulation Rapture Refuted with Scripture

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Forgiven
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Here they are.

God's been eminently attentive to His ELECT His CHURCH since the Day of Pentecost.


Luke 18:7
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
LOL, you might want to check the context on some of those. Meanwhile.............
Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isa 65
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
 
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jgr

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LOL, you might want to check the context on some of those. Meanwhile.............
Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isa 65
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Israel was comprised of two groups, the faithful and obedient, and the unfaithful and disobedient.

The latter invariably ended up dead. (Hebrews 10:28)

Who were the elect?
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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HI I disagree that either view is dangerous. Pretribers do look hoping for the LORD to come and take them away. But every pre trib preacher I have seen is all about occupying until the LORD comes and not being to attached to this world but to share the gospel now urgently. So if this position produces sanctification and urgency and holds to the true gospel its no big deal. I believe it and in the millennium of which there is much more verses about. Those who see a future point of view tend to support Israel and see things playing out in a specific order. Those who hold your view and hold a solid gospel I have no problem with.
 
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Neogaia777

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Your forgetting one, "mid-trib" which is the one I favor right now... mid-trib for the saints, and what will be or seem to be like pre-trib for the rest of the world that are not God's that will be left-behind, after the middle of the great tribulation period for the saints... What will then be and begin a great tribulation period for the ones of the world now, but/and because the others will be caught up to be with the Lord in an instant, then to return after that tribulation period back with them (The saints with The Lord/God/the Angels) who (saints) were caught up/taken out, to be with Him (God), will all "come back" when the "smoke settles and the dust clears" so to speak... 3 1/2 years of peace for the world, followed by 3 1/2 years of quite the opposite, to put it mildly, for the world, but 7 years, or the beginning 3 1/2, of "hell" for the saints...

Were not there yet BTW, it hasn't begun yet, not even for the saints yet, but it will... When everyone who kills you will think they are doing God a service, ect... Not to mention all the other torment mentally, emotionally the true saints will be going through that none of the people of the world will...

But, then, when the smoke settles and the dust clears, they return with the raptured saints/angels, ect to set up their (God's) Kingdom, ect, 1,000 year reign, age of Christ, on earth, ect...

There will be only a small remnant left from the people of the world that were left behind, and they will be joined together with them (all) (but on earth) at that time...

Then the Kingdom age will begin...

God Bless!
 
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Forgiven
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Israel was comprised of two groups, the faithful and obedient, and the unfaithful and disobedient.

The latter invariably ended up dead. (Hebrews 10:28)

Who were the elect?
I know this is a trick question. Is a DNA sample required?
 
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Neogaia777

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Your forgetting one, "mid-trib" which is the one I favor right now... mid-trib for the saints, and what will be or seem to be like pre-trib for the rest of the world that are not God's that will be left-behind, after the middle of the great tribulation period for the saints... What will then be and begin a great tribulation period for the ones of the world now, but/and because the others will be caught up to be with the Lord in an instant, then to return after that tribulation period back with them (The saints with The Lord/God/the Angels) who (saints) were caught up/taken out, to be with Him (God), will all "come back" when the "smoke settles and the dust clears" so to speak... 3 1/2 years of peace for the world, followed by 3 1/2 years of quite the opposite, to put it mildly, for the world, but 7 years, or the beginning 3 1/2, of "hell" for the saints...

Were not there yet BTW, it hasn't begun yet, not even for the saints yet, but it will... When everyone who kills you will think they are doing God a service, ect... Not to mention all the other torment mentally, emotionally the true saints will be going through that none of the people of the world will...

But, then, when the smoke settles and the dust clears, they return with the raptured saints/angels, ect to set up their (God's) Kingdom, ect, 1,000 year reign, age of Christ, on earth, ect...

There will be only a small remnant left from the people of the world that were left behind, and they will be joined together with them (all) (but on earth) at that time...

Then the Kingdom age will begin...

God Bless!
Two people will be doing this or that, one be taken (disappear) and the other left behind, ect, it's (Jesus) also likened to Lot in Sodom and Noah and the Ark, ect, and how they were saved, and how and because of, and due to, mainly one Man (Christ in this last case) some will be saved or raptured at a certain point "mid trib" for them I would say... Saved and spared from the wrath of God that will be the beginning of the real tribulation period for the world at that point... Or for the Devil and his people...

God Bless!
 
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Alithis

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Topic: The Dangers of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture View.

For the Pre-tribbers: Please do not take this the wrong way. I am here to warn of the dangers and fallacy of this Eschatological view.

Now, I am not a expert of Eschatology; but I have upon years of study, have come to the conclusion that the "Pre-Trib" rapture view is NOT taught in Scripture. I began as Pre-Trib view, then I switched to the Post-Trib view after listening and reading biblical exegesis which pointed to this doctrine. I switched back to the Pre-Trib view after hearing sermons and teachings on this view from notable bible Pastors and teachers who taught this Eschatological view. These men had some strong biblical viewpoints which "seemingly" pointed to a Pre-Trib Rapture view. I had prayed over this and asked the Lord to reveal the TRUE view regarding the timing of the Rapture. And it has been revealed that the Pre-Trib rapture view is unsubstantiated.

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)"

Meet the Lord (Grk. "apantesis" ἀπάντησις). We find the very SAME words in Greek Literature to describe the people of a city going out of the city to *greet* an incoming dignitary (i.e., "a returning conqueror") to welcome Him back into the city. The elect of God will be gathered in the air to greet and welcome Him as He visibly returns to Earth. We can see a parallel in Mark 13:27

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (Mark 13:26-27)"

This is the "gathering" of the elect to greet Christ as He returns and comes visibly to Earth. Nothing in this passage indicates an "invisible" return of Christ or snatching the elect out of the World. Verse 14 of Thessalonians 4 is clearly referring to the resurrection of the dead in Christ; and this is the event which occurs at the end of History.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:25-29)"

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Corinthians 15:51-55)"

The Return of Christ is inextricably linked to the resurrection of the dead, and the destruction of death itself.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)"

This is the SAME event which is spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. The same Greek word used for "the coming" (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of the Lord is used in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15. Now if we were to go back to Mark 13:13-14 regarding the Olivet Discourse, we read:

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: (Mark 13:13-14)"

2 Thessalonians 2:4 is parallel to Mark 13:14 regarding the "abomination of desolation". So this is NOT an event which takes place prior to the Second Coming of Christ and the Tribulation. This is an event which follows the rebellion or apostasy and the abomination of desolation. Also consider the gathering of the elect mentioned in Mark 13:27. This is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ. Compare that with 2 Thessalonians 2:1 which speaks of the assembling or gathering to meet Christ. The Greek word used here is "episynagoge" (ἐπισυναγωγή); and this is the SAME event which Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse. So where did Paul get his information regarding the Second Coming of Christ? He got it from Jesus Himself!

The marriage supper of the Lamb will take place at the Father's House (i.e., "heaven) in the time between the rapture and the Second coming of Christ; and this occurs during the Tribulation.

If you are still confused about the timing of the Rapture, then please hear a biblical scholar who clearly refutes the Pre-Trib Rapture view.


God Bless!
havnt watched the vid linked.
but iv read thessaloians often ,so no need .
its sovery clear :)
 
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Alithis

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2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
interesting that people get a bit hung up on the word elect... its equally translated as choice. your calling and choice.

many are called few are chosen ...
same meaning
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Topic: The Dangers of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture View.

For the Pre-tribbers: Please do not take this the wrong way. I am here to warn of the dangers and fallacy of this Eschatological view.

Now, I am not a expert of Eschatology; but I have upon years of study, have come to the conclusion that the "Pre-Trib" rapture view is NOT taught in Scripture. I began as Pre-Trib view, then I switched to the Post-Trib view after listening and reading biblical exegesis which pointed to this doctrine. I switched back to the Pre-Trib view after hearing sermons and teachings on this view from notable bible Pastors and teachers who taught this Eschatological view. These men had some strong biblical viewpoints which "seemingly" pointed to a Pre-Trib Rapture view. I had prayed over this and asked the Lord to reveal the TRUE view regarding the timing of the Rapture. And it has been revealed that the Pre-Trib rapture view is unsubstantiated.

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)"

Meet the Lord (Grk. "apantesis" ἀπάντησις). We find the very SAME words in Greek Literature to describe the people of a city going out of the city to *greet* an incoming dignitary (i.e., "a returning conqueror") to welcome Him back into the city. The elect of God will be gathered in the air to greet and welcome Him as He visibly returns to Earth. We can see a parallel in Mark 13:27

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (Mark 13:26-27)"

This is the "gathering" of the elect to greet Christ as He returns and comes visibly to Earth. Nothing in this passage indicates an "invisible" return of Christ or snatching the elect out of the World. Verse 14 of Thessalonians 4 is clearly referring to the resurrection of the dead in Christ; and this is the event which occurs at the end of History.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:25-29)"

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Corinthians 15:51-55)"

The Return of Christ is inextricably linked to the resurrection of the dead, and the destruction of death itself.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)"

This is the SAME event which is spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. The same Greek word used for "the coming" (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of the Lord is used in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15. Now if we were to go back to Mark 13:13-14 regarding the Olivet Discourse, we read:

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: (Mark 13:13-14)"

2 Thessalonians 2:4 is parallel to Mark 13:14 regarding the "abomination of desolation". So this is NOT an event which takes place prior to the Second Coming of Christ and the Tribulation. This is an event which follows the rebellion or apostasy and the abomination of desolation. Also consider the gathering of the elect mentioned in Mark 13:27. This is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ. Compare that with 2 Thessalonians 2:1 which speaks of the assembling or gathering to meet Christ. The Greek word used here is "episynagoge" (ἐπισυναγωγή); and this is the SAME event which Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse. So where did Paul get his information regarding the Second Coming of Christ? He got it from Jesus Himself!

The marriage supper of the Lamb will take place at the Father's House (i.e., "heaven) in the time between the rapture and the Second coming of Christ; and this occurs during the Tribulation.

If you are still confused about the timing of the Rapture, then please hear a biblical scholar who clearly refutes the Pre-Trib Rapture view.


God Bless!

John the Revelator was himself already in the tribulation period, as are you and I.

Rev 1:9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. NASU
 
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Neogaia777

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John the Revelator was himself already in the tribulation period, as are you and I.

Rev 1:9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. NASU
Maybe, but there not killing us in America yet... And the world's time of peace, (and it will be the world, or most of it) will be built on taking the mark of the beast (new financial system many think), and by really persecuting believers, even killing them, will be very much hated, and not even tolerated anymore, ect... Temple in Jerusalem has to be rebuilt, ect, Anti-Christ has to come on the scene, ect...

That's why I don't know if were really quite there yet or not...?

But, it does kinda feel like it or can feel like it mentally and emotionally sometimes though... But, I'm hoping that's just me...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Maybe, but there not killing us in America yet... And the world's time of peace, (and it will be the world, or most of it) will be built on taking the mark of the beast (new financial system many think), and by really persecuting believers, even killing them, will be very much hated, and not even tolerated anymore, ect... Temple in Jerusalem has to be rebuilt, ect, Anti-Christ has to come on the scene, ect...

That's why I don't know if were really quite there yet or not...?

But, it does kinda feel like it or can feel like it mentally and emotionally sometimes though... But, I'm hoping that's just me...

God Bless!
Now maybe at the first half, during the period of peace, they leave Israel alone, for the most part maybe, or maybe even protect her and defend her, (Temple gets rebuilt) but not after the rapture, or the last half, if she is still here, then they will all, nearly all of them turn on her and will want to destroy and obliterate her maybe...?

Will God be acting even during that time and will He act for Israel then, and are they going to be the remnant maybe...? IDK...? Possible I guess...

God Bless!
 
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Oldmantook

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Hello, ItIsFinished,

When I said that the saints are protected; I meant that they are protected from God's Divine judgment during the Tribulation -- and NOT from the persecution of the Antichrist. I also cited many bible passages in their context which clearly refutes that there are two distinct events. You can see the parallel between the biblical passages I cited. But I have yet to see any of the biblical passages I cited refuted in any such way; nor any biblical texts which prove your position. I see your interpretations -- but no bible verses to prove that these are two distinct events. These seem to be clearly be ignored by Pre-Tribbers. This is the reason why I cited those bible passages in particular; so those who hold to the Pre-Trib view can understand those passages in its "context" -- and how it clearly goes against their Pre-Trib teaching.

God Bless!
You are correct. The Church at Philadelphia will be protected at that "hour" (Rev 3:10). Of the 7 churches, these are the worthy saints whom God promises protection during the tribulation as you have stated. It stands to reason then that if that "hour" can be approximated, then we can determine a timeline of events. The book of Revelation interprets itself as the "hour" is later referred to in Rev 14:7,15; Rev 17:12; Rev 18:10,17,19. These verses place the "hour" when Babylon and God's enemies are destroyed at Jesus' Second Coming. Those faithful saints who persevere during the tribulation will be protected at that "hour." At that time, Jesus stated that he will come as a thief right before the battle of Armageddon in Rev 16:15-16 and not before the tribulation as pre-tribbers believe.
 
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Neogaia777

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You are correct. The Church at Philadelphia will be protected at that "hour" (Rev 3:10). Of the 7 churches, these are the worthy saints whom God promises protection during the tribulation as you have stated. It stands to reason then that if that "hour" can be approximated, then we can determine a timeline of events. The book of Revelation interprets itself as the "hour" is later referred to in Rev 14:7,15; Rev 17:12; Rev 18:10,17,19. These verses place the "hour" when Babylon and God's enemies are destroyed at Jesus' Second Coming. Those faithful saints who persevere during the tribulation will be protected at that "hour." At that time, Jesus stated that he will come as a thief right before the battle of Armageddon in Rev 16:15-16 and not before the tribulation as pre-tribbers believe.
So they could decide to all turn on her right before or before the rapture then...? (prior post)...

But, not all will be raptured, and I think not many will be of Israel if they are to be the remnant in the end, and if maybe God wants to prove himself to them in a way maybe or something, IDK... But, whatever it is, at first they might reject Christ, but by the end they will be more than ready to accept Him, I would think, if that were to happen... Grafted back in afterward... Teachers of us after that...

God Bless!
 
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Topic: The Dangers of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture View.

For the Pre-tribbers: Please do not take this the wrong way. I am here to warn of the dangers and fallacy of this Eschatological view.

Now, I am not a expert of Eschatology; but I have upon years of study, have come to the conclusion that the "Pre-Trib" rapture view is NOT taught in Scripture. I began as Pre-Trib view, then I switched to the Post-Trib view after listening and reading biblical exegesis which pointed to this doctrine. I switched back to the Pre-Trib view after hearing sermons and teachings on this view from notable bible Pastors and teachers who taught this Eschatological view. These men had some strong biblical viewpoints which "seemingly" pointed to a Pre-Trib Rapture view. I had prayed over this and asked the Lord to reveal the TRUE view regarding the timing of the Rapture. And it has been revealed that the Pre-Trib rapture view is unsubstantiated.

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)"

Meet the Lord (Grk. "apantesis" ἀπάντησις). We find the very SAME words in Greek Literature to describe the people of a city going out of the city to *greet* an incoming dignitary (i.e., "a returning conqueror") to welcome Him back into the city. The elect of God will be gathered in the air to greet and welcome Him as He visibly returns to Earth. We can see a parallel in Mark 13:27

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (Mark 13:26-27)"

This is the "gathering" of the elect to greet Christ as He returns and comes visibly to Earth. Nothing in this passage indicates an "invisible" return of Christ or snatching the elect out of the World. Verse 14 of Thessalonians 4 is clearly referring to the resurrection of the dead in Christ; and this is the event which occurs at the end of History.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:25-29)"

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Corinthians 15:51-55)"

The Return of Christ is inextricably linked to the resurrection of the dead, and the destruction of death itself.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)"

This is the SAME event which is spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. The same Greek word used for "the coming" (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of the Lord is used in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15. Now if we were to go back to Mark 13:13-14 regarding the Olivet Discourse, we read:

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: (Mark 13:13-14)"

2 Thessalonians 2:4 is parallel to Mark 13:14 regarding the "abomination of desolation". So this is NOT an event which takes place prior to the Second Coming of Christ and the Tribulation. This is an event which follows the rebellion or apostasy and the abomination of desolation. Also consider the gathering of the elect mentioned in Mark 13:27. This is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ. Compare that with 2 Thessalonians 2:1 which speaks of the assembling or gathering to meet Christ. The Greek word used here is "episynagoge" (ἐπισυναγωγή); and this is the SAME event which Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse. So where did Paul get his information regarding the Second Coming of Christ? He got it from Jesus Himself!

The marriage supper of the Lamb will take place at the Father's House (i.e., "heaven) in the time between the rapture and the Second coming of Christ; and this occurs during the Tribulation.

If you are still confused about the timing of the Rapture, then please hear a biblical scholar who clearly refutes the Pre-Trib Rapture view.


God Bless!

We are told to watch and pray so that we may be accounted worthy so as to escape all these end times things that are mentioned in the Olivet discourse.

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (See Luke 21:36).

What would all these things include that Jesus just talked about?

Luke 21:
10 "Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven."

2nd seal: Wars (Peace taken from the Earth) (See Revelation 6:3-4). This lines up with nation rising against nation in Luke 21:10.

3rd seal: Famine (Revelation 6:5-6) This lines up with the famine mentioned in Luke 21:11.

Jesus said we can watch and pray so that we may be accounted worthy to escape all these things (Luke 21:36).

"And unto... the church in Thyatira... And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds." ~ (Revelation 2:18, 21-22).

How else would an entire church miss out on the great tribulation if they are not Raptured? Will God kill them instead?

Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

To put it to you another way, Paul believed in looking for the imminent return of His Savior Jesus Christ. If Paul believed he would have had to go thru the tribulation, he would not have said this.

At the 1st rapture, the LORD calls His church up to a wedding/marriage:

Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

In the 2nd Rapture, in the midpoint of the Tribulation, He is returning from a wedding:

Luke 12:36

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

1 Thessalonians 1:10

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

1 Thessalonians 5:9

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

We are told that we are to watch, for we do not know what day or hour He is coming; In fact, we are told that He is coming in a time that we think not. This makes no sense in the Post Trib view Rapture because you will know when He is coming. You will be able to do a countdown of all the signs taking place. Demons coming out of the ground.... "Check" .... Blood red seas..... "Check" A period of darkness.... "Check." So yeah. No need to watch. Just look at the obvious signs and you will know His coming.

Side Note:

Paul says there is a natural body and a spiritual body. The Raptures are a spiritual body type resurrection. We shall be like the angels in the Rapture. The physical flesh and blood body resurrection is different and comes later in two phases, as well.
 
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Oldmantook

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So they could decide to all turn on her right before or before the rapture then...? (prior post)...

But, not all will be raptured, and I think not many will be of Israel if they are to be the remnant in the end, and if maybe God wants to prove himself to them in a way maybe or something, IDK... But, whatever it is, at first they might reject Christ, but by the end they will be more than ready to accept Him, I would think, if that were to happen... Grafted back in afterward... Teachers of us after that...

God Bless!
Don't know about who will or will not turn on Israel as that would just be speculation on my part. I know that God supports Israel but I am suspicious of Zionists as the two are not the same but that is another story.
 
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Neogaia777

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Don't know about who will or will not turn on Israel as that would just be speculation on my part. I know that God supports Israel but I am suspicious of Zionists as the two are not the same but that is another story.
I'm only speculating about the part about Israel as well or anyway as well... But not about a rapture that will be mid trib for those ones at that time...

God Bless!
 
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The problem is that you have the most to lose by not believing in a Pre-Trib Rapture. If you had a chance to miss out on the Tribulation and go to be with your Lord and be counted as faithful, why would you not want that? I think some (not all) feel like they have to go through the Tribulation because they have a persecution complex or something. They may feel like they are trying to atone for something in their past life. So they feel like they must go through the Tribulation. Granted, I am not saying all Post Tribbers think this way, but I imagine some do, though.

Another problem I see with the Post Trib View (or denying a Pre-Trib Rapture) is that it leads a person to think that they have to stockpile or prepare for the end times. They will be focusing on putting their trust in carnal or material things instead of trusting in Christ. Jesus says take no thought for tomorrow. Jesus says seek first the kingdom of God and all these things (your basic needs) will be added unto you.
 
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If I am wrong about the Pre-Trib Rapture, the worst that will happen is that I will be like, "Okay, I was wrong and it is time for me to re-think my view on Eschatology." Those who will lose their faith over something like this are not really grounded or rooted deeply in God's Word. Saints today realize that they can be persecuted even today. In fact, all who live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.
 
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Neogaia777

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The problem is that you have the most to lose by not believing in a Pre-Trib Rapture. If you had a chance to miss out on the Tribulation and go to be with your Lord and be counted as faithful, why would you not want that? I think some (not all) feel like they have to go through the Tribulation because they have a persecution complex or something. They may feel like they are trying to atone for something in their past life. So they feel like they must go through the Tribulation. Granted, I am not saying all Post Tribbers think this way, but I imagine some do, though.

Another problem I see with the Post Trib View (or denying a Pre-Trib Rapture) is that it leads a person to think that they have to stockpile or prepare for the end times. They will be focusing on putting their trust in carnal or material things instead of trusting in Christ. Jesus says take no thought for tomorrow. Jesus says seek first the kingdom of God and all these things (your basic needs) will be added unto you.
If there is a tribulation right now, I am being protected and shielded from it by God right now, only after having gone through some things now though myself, which I am very grateful for...

And I guess I've just never heard of two raptures, then a return later, or what...?

Could you maybe explain that a bit maybe...?

God Bless!
 
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