It just doesnt seem fair. (Warning huge Rant)

liberty of conscience said:

The two ditches of error that blaspheme God's character:

[1] eternal suffering in torment [not mercy]

[2] universalism (etc) [not justice]

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While there are variants of universalism which deny a lake of fire as a literal, physical place of suffering which I don't subscribe to. Christian universalism properly understood accommodates both God's mercy and His justice. see my post #118

Oldmantook said:

While there are variants of universalism which deny a lake of fire as a literal, physical place of suffering which I don't subscribe to. Christian universalism properly understood accommodates both God's mercy and His justice. see my post #118

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"restitution" (Acts 3:21; meaning to pay back or give back, to return) refers to the re-created earth, being the New Heavens and Earth (Isaiah 65:17; Isaiah 66:22; 2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1).

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co_15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

It does not refer to the salvation of those who refuse the gift of God in Christ Jesus.

Universalism (in all its forms, thus "etc.", as stated) is error and blasphemes God, and there is no justice in it (even worse it would be rape of the will). The lake of fire is not purgatorial for the salvation of wicked men (there is no going back at that point, it is too late; Revelation 22:11), it is 'purgatorial' (cleanses the whole earth) of sin, only in the sense, unto the absolute and utter eternal destruction of it:

Luk_19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Judas had his chances. There are no more for him. His death sealed himself unto the Great White Throne judgment. He will "appear" outside the City (Revelation 20). He will then face the final execution and "perish" (John 3:16), being "blotted out of the book of the living".

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

liberty of conscience said:

The two ditches of error that blaspheme God's character:

[1] eternal suffering in torment [not mercy]

[2] universalism (etc) [not justice]

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There is nothing just about bringing beings into existence with lives that are "as a vapour" and then torturing them forever. There is certainly no kind of justice in giving everyone, the exact same sentence, regardless of type of lives they have lived or tried to live.

Oldmantook said:

That would be called the doctrine of apocatastasis.

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It doesn't matter what you label it, that's exactly what God says he is going to do.

martymonster said:

There is nothing just about bringing beings into existence with lives that are "as a vapour" and then torturing them forever. There is certainly no kind of justice in giving everyone, the exact same sentence, regardless of type of lives they have lived or tried to live.

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They do not receive the exact same sentences. They are punished (tormented) according to their deeds, the final reward of which is execution. Some suffer longer than others before that ceasing. Do not confuse torment (temporality) with execution (finality).

As it was in the days of Noe ...

It may be worthwhile to understand that nobody will get what they don't deserve. The Judge of all the World will do what is right. After all, if he didn't, there was no point in creating, simply for the purpose of destruction and retribution against impotent creatures.

We will all get what we all deserve, (and don't pretend we are not wholly --even exuberantly --cooperating, indulging, in our sin), unless Christ takes our place. God can do whatever he chooses.

But I take comfort in this --that (a caveat: this is opinion) the person suffering in the Lake of Fire for his sin is hardly what we can even call a person anymore. He does not resemble the human we knew, but has become the epitome of his sin --totally devoid of God's graces and control over his excesses. Full of self-will but possessing no free-will. This being is not the person you know and love.

Beyond this, too, is the fact that, as I have heard said, what will surprise us (me) in the end is who will in fact turn out to be saved, and the fact that I was saved, in spite of my ability to choose.

I do not believe God sees this at all as a function of human integrity, nor even human choice. The choice inevitably occurs as a result of the choice God made "before" creation, and completed in us as regeneration --opening our eyes and hearts. Salvation is God in us; it is not our acceptance of him.

Dave L said:

God sends them to hell

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God sends no one to hell, it is man's choice that sends him to hell

It may be worthwhile to understand that nobody will get what they don't deserve. The Judge of all the World will do what is right. After all, if he didn't, there was no point in creating, simply for the purpose of destruction and retribution against impotent creatures.

We will all get what we all deserve, (and don't pretend we are not wholly --even exuberantly --cooperating, indulging, in our sin), unless Christ takes our place. God can do whatever he chooses.

But I take comfort in this --that (a caveat: this is opinion) the person suffering in the Lake of Fire for his sin is hardly what we can even call a person anymore. He does not resemble the human we knew, but has become the epitome of his sin --totally devoid of God's graces and control over his excesses. Full of self-will but possessing no free-will. This being is not the person you know and love.

Beyond this, too, is the fact that, as I have heard said, what will surprise us (me) in the end is who will in fact turn out to be saved, and the fact that I was saved, in spite of my ability to choose.

I do not believe God sees this at all as a function of human integrity, nor even human choice. The choice inevitably occurs as a result of the choice God made "before" creation, and completed in us as regeneration --opening our eyes and hearts. Salvation is God in us; it is not our acceptance of him.

liberty of conscience said:

They do not receive the exact same sentences. They are punished (tormented) according to their deeds, the final reward of which is execution. Some suffer longer than others before that ceasing. Do not confuse torment (temporality) with execution (finality).

As it was in the days of Noe ...

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So, there's some first fruits, but in-gathering eh?

Neostarwcc said:

It just doesn't seem fair that my mother, dad, sister, brother in law...etc all have to burn and suffer for an eternity just because they don't believe in Christ and it doesn't matter what I say to them they will ALWAYS be unbelievers.

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Hello-
There is another way to look at this scenario:

Yahweh, the tri-personal God of everything is intensely and inherently interpersonally relational. As the personal (i.e. not a "force") and ONLY source of all that is good, beautiful and true, the only way to experience eternal life (not just duration, but the quality of life that the Father, Son, and Spirit have always experienced in themselves--the "Happy Land of the Trinity") is to be interrelationally connected to that source. This is true even for people before Christ, though their hope remained unrealized until Christ should come (Hebrews 11).

Sin is essentially a corrosive rebellion that destroys personality and relationship, resulting in death at every level. It is not "safe" in any amount. God cannot tolerate it since it is antithetical to his very nature.

The good news is that, because of Jesus, sin and death have been crucified and all who receive that gift of relational invitation are adopted into the family of God (John 1, Ephesians 1, Romans 3:21-26, 2 Peter 1, etc.). No one who wants to have a relationship with the Father will be rejected. Only those who reject the Son. (John 3:16-21). To actively trust in Jesus , the Son sent to rescue sinners, (1 Corinthians 15:3-6) is to pass the "great evaluation": to accurately identify the Son.

Even more good news, the Father, Son and Spirit are not passive but extremely active in their desire to adopt "many sons to glory".The Father is drawing people to the Son, the Spirit is convicting the world of sin, righteousness and judgement to prepare them for the good news, and the Son has sent his people into the world to continue his work: reconciling people to God! (John 6:37-40, 44-45, John 16:7-11, John 20:21).

Keep praying for your family, confident that no one who wants God will somehow miss him (John 3:17). Keep praying for you family, confident that God the creator knows them and loves them and longs for them more deeply than you can imagine and that the "Magnificent Three" have acted decisively in history at Calvary to secure "a living hope" for everyone that wants it.You can't change hearts, only God can do that. You continue to walk in the Love of the Father, in Fellowship with the Savior, in the power of the Spirit. My friend's mother has recently come to faith in her late 60s after seeing his life transformed by the Savior and now, his alcoholic step-father is beginning to change in his late 70s after seeing my friend and his family live with joy through cancer. "God is patient...not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) You can rest in the kindness and mercy of God. As others have said, when his final judgement falls, it will not be due to a lack of love and kindness or because there was no opportunity.

-Ing Bee

whereloveandmercymeet said:

I try to never distance myself from people but separate people and their behaviour. So when they’re doing something I wouldn’t (sometimes morally, sometimes due to my faith, but usually they overlap) I distance myself and make it known why. I’m wont lecture them or anything but will be honest. Like when at uni I would happily tag along pub quiz because it was great fun. But when they wanted to go ‘on the pull’ I wouldn’t even go with them and they knew why. They’d ask the next time and I’d just brush it off with ‘you know why I won’t go’. I do think there is a danger of getting wrapped up in others activities if you aren’t careful.

I just cling to the fact that all the while they are still breathing they still have time. I’ve seen it happen before. I just hope it happens to the rest. There’s that hope again. It’s a really tricksy little thing.

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I am just saying that the more you are into the Word and seeking to follow Jesus according to His Word, you will be led more away from wanting to be with the people of the world because they are against everything you hold dear.

Neostarwcc said:

It just doesn't seem fair that my mother, dad, sister, brother in law...etc all have to burn and suffer for an eternity just because they don't believe in Christ and it doesn't matter what I say to them they will ALWAYS be unbelievers.


Yet, I'm somehow saved because I'm a believer? Please! Why the heck should we be saved and the rest of the world has to burn? I mean do we HONESTLY believe this crap? And how the heck can we enjoy our eternities KNOWING that our friends and loved ones are out there suffering?

And Annihalationism is even worse than suffering forever. Why? Because Annihalationism teaches that unbelievers won't burn for forever but their very souls get destroyed! Idk about you? But to me that sounds WORSE than burning for forever. Its designed to soften the blow but to me it just sounds 50,000 times worse. The scariest part of that reality is that one day we will cease to exist. Idk about you guys but I'd RATHER eternal suffering than to just one day cease to exist. That was the scariest part of atheism to me was when I believed that one day I would die and cease to exist. I became a Christian because I didn't want to accept that reality. I didnt WANT to perish. But honestly atheism sounds ridiculous to me now. Yes, there IS a God. I've seen him and I'd be a fool to stop believing in him but honestly? How can I believe in God's justice? It is just SO unfair and either way you slice it it makes God sound like a tyrant. Whether Annihalationism is true or if they burn forever it doesn't change the outcome. It is just all seriously screwed up. Yet I continue to love and serve God anyway. I think its just time I accepted that I didn't choose God but God chose me and that the rest of my family just wasn't chosen by God. God took pity on me instead. The sooner I accept that the better.

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God is pleased to host/father anyone who is willing to live as His child. God has a way of communicating to those who are willing to be His.

All others are allowed to choose otherwise.

Seadish said:

It is our choice ,,freewill a tyrant would be one who forced us to love them been there done there are many names for that I always say you never know what goes on between Christ and the individual in his luthier last few breaths it is never too late

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In effect through Christ, God has open the prison doors of sin and condemnation wide open and invited all people to come out. What would we think of a prison who has been pardoned and the release papers are signed and present, the door unlocked and opened, staying in the cell because he or she stubbornly disbelieves the pardon and is suspicious of the open door? We would wonder if their elevator goes all the way to the top!

But that is the invitation that God gives to all, and those who walk out of the prison are saved.

If it were true it would be unfair. But I dont beleive it for a moment and neither should you.

A_Thinker said:

God is pleased to host/father anyone who is willing to live as His child. God has a way of communicating to those who are willing to be His.

All others are allowed to choose otherwise.

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Willing? Does Chance rule who gets the willingness? How are they made willing? Is one better than another?

None are willing, until God changes their heart. It is not of the person, then, to make a saving decision, but of God. The person's decision is only the result of the change God makes within. God need not kiss the ... of "freewill".

"...nor of the will of man, but of God."

Neostarwcc said:

It just doesn't seem fair that my mother, dad, sister, brother in law...etc all have to burn and suffer for an eternity just because they don't believe in Christ and it doesn't matter what I say to them they will ALWAYS be unbelievers.


Yet, I'm somehow saved because I'm a believer? Please! Why the heck should we be saved and the rest of the world has to burn? I mean do we HONESTLY believe this crap? And how the heck can we enjoy our eternities KNOWING that our friends and loved ones are out there suffering?

And Annihalationism is even worse than suffering forever. Why? Because Annihalationism teaches that unbelievers won't burn for forever but their very souls get destroyed! Idk about you? But to me that sounds WORSE than burning for forever. Its designed to soften the blow but to me it just sounds 50,000 times worse. The scariest part of that reality is that one day we will cease to exist. Idk about you guys but I'd RATHER eternal suffering than to just one day cease to exist. That was the scariest part of atheism to me was when I believed that one day I would die and cease to exist. I became a Christian because I didn't want to accept that reality. I didnt WANT to perish. But honestly atheism sounds ridiculous to me now. Yes, there IS a God. I've seen him and I'd be a fool to stop believing in him but honestly? How can I believe in God's justice? It is just SO unfair and either way you slice it it makes God sound like a tyrant. Whether Annihalationism is true or if they burn forever it doesn't change the outcome. It is just all seriously screwed up. Yet I continue to love and serve God anyway. I think its just time I accepted that I didn't choose God but God chose me and that the rest of my family just wasn't chosen by God. God took pity on me instead. The sooner I accept that the better.

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A friend of mine recently called me up to ask me about his Atheist friend who had died, (at a young age) and about their/her soul going to heaven... he had asked his pastor and others and come up with nothing basically... so, knowing me, he thought he'd ask me...

I told him none of us knows how another is going to be judged, but only that God is the perfect judge, knowing all about all things fully... Even things many of us don't know, he knows perfectly and fully... I told him that if there was something in her past that turned her off from religion or God or whatever, God would know and would take that into account when judging... I told him He is the perfect judge when none of us are... So, I told him I didn't know, but that there could be "circumstances" or "extenuating circumstances" that we, and perhaps even she herself doesn't know about but that He does, and that He's the perfect judge in that regard...

He seemed more satisfied with my answer than any of the answers he got from anyone else...

Likewise, you do not know about your family members either, and I think it would only be right to consider if the way your handling it is really helping or is/and what is best and the wisest way to handle it/this/them and in this situation... Are you being to pushy, to impatient, are you turning them off from God and or religion somehow, cause that's usually a good gauge and how you can gauge and "tell"...

If you truly want them saved, I would consider some of these things first... And maybe find a better way to handle it that would involve a lot more "tact" so to speak...

"Tact", root word being tactics, or approach, or skillful delivery of the gospel message, appropriate and custom tailored to the situation, ect... Wisdom...

Other than that, ours is to trust more in him being the perfect judge and pray sincere and not hateful prayers for those you want saved...

Are you making the gospel or having a faith belief in God "attractive" to them, like a lure, or being an example to them in such a way, that they see in you something they "want", and beyond that, maybe even something they desperately "need" as they see their great lack maybe or perhaps...

If your not doing that, then you may want to make a close examination of your own personal witness to them as a representative of God to and for them, and if it's not good, "you" could be turning them off or pushing them away... and just reminding them of everything they hate and/or find very wrong with religion and supposed believers in God in general...

God Bless!

liberty of conscience said:

"restitution" (Acts 3:21; meaning to pay back or give back, to return) refers to the re-created earth, being the New Heavens and Earth (Isaiah 65:17; Isaiah 66:22; 2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1).

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co_15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

It does not refer to the salvation of those who refuse the gift of God in Christ Jesus.

Universalism (in all its forms, thus "etc.", as stated) is error and blasphemes God, and there is no justice in it (even worse it would be rape of the will). The lake of fire is not purgatorial for the salvation of wicked men (there is no going back at that point, it is too late; Revelation 22:11), it is 'purgatorial' (cleanses the whole earth) of sin, only in the sense, unto the absolute and utter eternal destruction of it:

Luk_19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Judas had his chances. There are no more for him. His death sealed himself unto the Great White Throne judgment. He will "appear" outside the City (Revelation 20). He will then face the final execution and "perish" (John 3:16), being "blotted out of the book of the living".

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

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Judging from your reply, you did no research at all - either biblically or historically - which is your prerogative of course.

A lot of people try to be nice about things, but the word is pretty specific,...

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

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Albion said:

One thing it might be right to keep in mind is that we do not exactly know what hell is like or what the nature of the loss is. It is not heaven, but the other details are not clear.

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The details of heaven aren't clear either.

The only thing we know is that to be in heaven is to be with God and under His sovereign dominion...and we're willing to accept that and all that comes with it, if we are believers.

It could be that these souls do not want to be good or part of the divine nature, just as they were when they were in this life we are living. There are people who are attracted to the evil acts this world offers and are put off by people who are Godly, just, and loving but whom they look upon as goody-two-shoes types.

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At the least, they are people who are determined not to exist under God's sovereign dominion.

They don't want to be in the same universe as a sovereign God.

So if God is sovereign in His universe, what is He to do about people who don't want to be in a universe in which He is sovereign?