1000 years in heaven.

BobRyan · Dec 12, 2018

ac28 said:
Rev 21:1-2
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
.
The NJ comes down out of the New created starry Heavens AFTER there is a New Heaven and New Earth. .

And also before -- as we see it in Rev 20:6-9

klutedavid · Dec 12, 2018

BobRyan said:
Rev 20 and Rev 2 and 1 Cor 6 -- do tell us that.

Rev 2
26 He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; 27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron (Judgment), as the vessels of the potter are broken to pieces, as I also have received authority from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star.

How do the saints "overcome"?
Rev 12:10-11
the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death

Still the text (Revelation 20:4-5) does not say that, 'all the saints', reign with Christ for a thousand years!

Whether or not you can link verses with other other verses, which according to the way you read (interpret) the scripture. May or may not support your general claim. This still does not change the plain reading of the text (Revelations 20:4-5). Do you understand what I am saying?

ac28 · Dec 12, 2018

BobRyan said:
So then you have a super-tiny Bible that does not even include all 27 books of the NT???
Does it include Gal 1:6-9 telling us that there is only ONE Gospel?
Does it include Gal 3:8 reminding us that that SAME Gospel was "preached to Abraham"??

All of the Bible is FOR me, FOR my education and learning, and I love and read it ALL. But NOT all the Bible is written TO me or ABOUT me. Assuming you haven't sacrificed an animal, kept the Law, been circumcised in a Jewish ceremony, or a jillion other Jewish things, you don't think all of the Bible is TO or ABOUT you either.

The difference between you and I is that you pick-and-choose what you like and discard what you don't want. Much of this picking-and-choosing is dependent on which no-nothing denominational church you attend. That's why there are supposedly 40,000 denominations. Every know-nothing denomination steals and claims different Israel-only things, NONE of which any Gentile will EVER receive. Why? Because there is no evidence in the Bible where any Gentile was EVER given ANY of these things.

For me, there is ZERO pick-and choose. Besides Christ, I know of nothing ever taught or given to Israel that was ever given to any Gentile in the last 1956 years. So, it's simple. I KNOW that the only books TO me or ABOUT me today are Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles. Therefore, I take the big 2Tim 2:15 knife and mentally cut God's Word between Acts and Ephesians. I have 7 books that apply directly to me on one side and 59 books that are great for reading and leaning on the other side. If every preacher did this the same way, there would only be one denomination and probably 1000 times more saints would end up going to Heaven. Instead, as it stands now, probably 98% of all saints will end up on the New Earth because they don't believe God's word. For example, You probably think you'll end up going to Heaven. Why would God take you to Heaven when almost everything you believe is from a different dispensation whose hope is the New Jerusalem, which is certainly not Heaven?

We that believe have eternal life, but not all of us have a calling, unless we SEE, BELIEVE, and CLAIM that calling in scripture, and you won't see it unless you desire it. Heaven is not automatic, and, from what I've seen, God is not going to give you the eyes on understanding to SEE the Hope of His calling (Ephesians 1:17-18) unless you repent and get rid of all that Jewish baggage.

klutedavid · Dec 12, 2018

BobRyan said:
True - the wicked are not raised at the Rev 20 "First resurrection" only those that Rev 20 calls the "blessed and holy" only those that 1 Thess 4 calls "the dead in Christ"

Those saints still alive at the 2nd coming are not resurrected - they are raptured to heaven as Christ promised in John 14.

The wicked are all killed at that point as Rev 20 points out. And as 2Thess 1 points out.

But after the 1000 years - Rev 20 says the wicked are resurrected and they surround the camp of the saints. -- the New Jerusalem
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The rapture comes from 3 places.
John 14 -- Jesus takes the saints to heaven at the 2nd coming.
Matthew 24 - Jesus sends forth His angels to gather His elect from the four corners of the heavens.
1 Thess 4 -- caught up with them "in the air".

The living wicked in Rev 20 after the 1000 years are the resurrected wicked. Over them the second death "Does have power" according to Rev 20.

Where does the text (Revelation 20) say this?

But after the 1000 years - Rev 20 says the wicked are resurrected and they surround the camp of the saints.

I cannot find in Revelation 20, anything about a resurrection of the wicked before they surround the camp?

ac28 · Dec 12, 2018

BobRyan said:
And also before -- as we see it in Rev 20:6-9

Explain to me what that has in common with Rev 21:1-2

Oldmantook · Dec 12, 2018

BobRyan said:
Christ takes all the saints to heaven for 1000 years at the 2nd coming. -- "I will come again" John 14.

the 1000 years are literal -

But it is not where Christ reigns on Earth because Revelation 19 says all the wicked are killed when Christ comes again (second coming) - and John 14 says that when He comes again he takes the saints back with Him - back to heaven.
(Jesus went to heaven Acts 1 and comes back from heaven -- Phil 3:20
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;NASB)

They are there for 1000 years that starts with the "First resurrection" Rev 20:5 which is when the "Dead in Christ rise first" 1 Thess 4:16

And all the wicked are slain at Christ's coming 2 Thess 1:7-8 Rev 19:17-18

"Elephant in living room" of all other options on this topic -- is this.
Nothing left here but a desolate Earth - as the OT prophets predicted.

======================
DESOLATE Earth

Rev 20:4-5 shows the ”First Resurrection” Which is the resurrection of the saints the “dead in Christ” as Paul says in 1Thess 4 at our “Gathering together to Him” 2Thess 2:1-4 a the “Coming of the Lord” (Both 2Thess 2 and 1Thess 4 point that out).

Rev 19 says that the living wicked are destroyed by fire and by the sword that comes from Christ “at the coming of the Lord” – it says “The rest were killed by the sword” that comes from Christ. Vs 21

At that time Christ raptures the church (in the singular event He promised in John 14) and we are taken to heaven both the living AND the dead (raised at the First Resurrection).

So what about the earth? That leaves “no one” here – so does the Bible describe earth as left without humans, dead corpses from one end of earth to another?
No one left to bury the dead? Cities all destroyed? Really?

Millennium – a time without a single human remaining alive. Not a glorious place to live - but a place where birds feeding on rotting corpses of mankind. And yet it is temporary – only lasting for 1000 years.

This feast of the birds we see described again in Rev 19 where the lamb destroys certain of mankind

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

Zeph 1:18

Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,

It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – World Wide catastrophe

Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.

The saints rule and reign with Christ on earth - not in heaven - during the millennial period.

ewq1938 · Dec 12, 2018

Oldmantook said:
The saints rule and reign with Christ on earth - not in heaven - during the millennial period.

Yep.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

BobRyan · Dec 12, 2018

Oldmantook said:
The saints rule and reign with Christ on earth - not in heaven - during the millennial period.

That works best if you put it in quotes and give the text reference.

BobRyan · Dec 12, 2018

ewq1938 said:
Yep.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

After the 1000 years.

BobRyan · Dec 12, 2018

ac28 said:
Explain to me what that has in common with Rev 21:1-2

They are both after the 1000 years.

Rev 21:1-2
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband

And again in 21:10
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

And in Rev 20:6-9
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

The New Jerusalem is the camp of the saints and comes down out of heaven after the 1000 years. In vs 9 fire comes down and destroys the wicked.

But then Rev 20 - enlarges and expands on that short summary showing that the judgment happens then the lake of fire.

BobRyan · Dec 12, 2018

klutedavid said:
I cannot find in Revelation 20, anything about a resurrection of the wicked before they surround the camp?

Because you are skipping over the details.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

That is the resurrection you did not see.

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore

They are raised and gathered for war against the New Jerusalem.

ewq1938 · Dec 12, 2018

BobRyan said:
After the 1000 years.

No, during the thousand years.

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

The overcomers immediately rule after Christ returns which places that rule by the saints in the Millennium.

The other thing Rev 5 proves is that they are in heaven already yet claim in the future they will reign on Earth so they are not reigning in heaven not then nor in the Millennium....the ruling and reigning is never in heaven by the saints.

ewq1938 · Dec 12, 2018

BobRyan said:
They are both after the 1000 years.

Rev 21:1-2
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband

And again in 21:10
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

And in Rev 20:6-9
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

The New Jerusalem is the camp of the saints and comes down out of heaven after the 1000 years. In vs 9 fire comes down and destroys the wicked.

Wrong. New Jerusalem doesn't even come out of heaven until after Rev 20 and after the GWTJ and not until the new heavens and new Earth occur which is also not in Rev 20. In Rev 20 it is old Jerusalem.

BobRyan · Dec 12, 2018

ac28 said:
All of the Bible is FOR me, FOR my education and learning, and I love and read it ALL.

Whew! Good to hear. For a moment there I thought your bible was sliced up down from 66 to less than 27 in fact less than 23.

But NOT all the Bible is written TO me or ABOUT me. Assuming you haven't sacrificed an animal, kept the Law, been circumcised in a Jewish ceremony, or a jillion other Jewish things, you don't think all of the Bible is TO or ABOUT you either.

All the Bible is FOR me - including Hebrews 10 tells us that the purpose of the ceremonial/sacrificial system ended at the cross because as Colossians 2 points out they were predictions of the coming Messiah.

Hence - in the NT - many many quotes of the OT showing that 'these things were written for our instruction" 1 Cor 10.

Which I think we all already knew.

. Why? Because there is no evidence in the Bible where any Gentile was EVER given ANY of these things.

Isaiah 56:6-8 - gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping.

BobRyan · Dec 12, 2018

ac28 said:
Explain to me what that has in common with Rev 21:1-2

They are both after the 1000 years.

Rev 21:1-2
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband

And again in 21:10
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

And in Rev 20:6-9
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

The New Jerusalem is the camp of the saints and comes down out of heaven after the 1000 years. In vs 9 fire comes down and destroys the wicked.

But then Rev 20 - enlarges and expands on that short summary showing that the judgment happens then the lake of fire.

Each point listed is irrefutable.

ewq1938 said:
Wrong. New Jerusalem doesn't even come out of heaven until after Rev 20 and after the GWTJ and not until the new heavens and new Earth occur which is also not in Rev 20. In Rev 20 it is old Jerusalem.

No text says it does not come down after the 1000 years.
Revelation repeatedly summarizes... then expands on the summary.

This is irrefutable.

20:6-9 is the short summary.

The remainder of 20 and 21 is the expanded detail.

ewq1938 · Dec 12, 2018

BobRyan said:
No text says it does not come down after the 1000 years.
Revelation repeatedly summarizes... then expands on the summary.

This is irrefutable

The text from Rev 20-22 is chronological and the NJ does not come out of heaven until after the GWTJ is over, and after the NHNE. That is irrefutable.

20:6-9 is the short summary.

The remainder of 20 and 21 is the expanded detail.

Nope.

BobRyan · Dec 12, 2018

Details from the very start - in the OP that so many seem anxious to avoid.

Christ takes all the saints to heaven for 1000 years at the 2nd coming. -- "I will come again" John 14.

ItIsFinished! said:
Do you believe in a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth?

the 1000 years are literal -

But it is not where Christ reigns on Earth because Revelation 19 says all the wicked are killed when Christ comes again (second coming) - and John 14 says that when He comes again he takes the saints back with Him - back to heaven.
(Jesus went to heaven Acts 1 and comes back from heaven -- Phil 3:20
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;NASB)

They are there for 1000 years that starts with the "First resurrection" Rev 20:5 which is when the "Dead in Christ rise first" 1 Thess 4:16

And all the wicked are slain at Christ's coming 2 Thess 1:7-8 Rev 19:17-18

"Elephant in living room" of all other options on this topic -- is this.
Nothing left here but a desolate Earth - as the OT prophets predicted.

======================
DESOLATE Earth

Rev 20:4-5 shows the ”First Resurrection” Which is the resurrection of the saints the “dead in Christ” as Paul says in 1Thess 4 at our “Gathering together to Him” 2Thess 2:1-4 a the “Coming of the Lord” (Both 2Thess 2 and 1Thess 4 point that out).

Rev 19 says that the living wicked are destroyed by fire and by the sword that comes from Christ “at the coming of the Lord” – it says “The rest were killed by the sword” that comes from Christ. Vs 21

At that time Christ raptures the church (in the singular event He promised in John 14) and we are taken to heaven both the living AND the dead (raised at the First Resurrection).

So what about the earth? That leaves “no one” here – so does the Bible describe earth as left without humans, dead corpses from one end of earth to another?
No one left to bury the dead? Cities all destroyed? Really?

Millennium – a time without a single human remaining alive. Not a glorious place to live - but a place where birds feeding on rotting corpses of mankind. And yet it is temporary – only lasting for 1000 years.

This feast of the birds we see described again in Rev 19 where the lamb destroys certain of mankind

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

Zeph 1:18

Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,

It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – World Wide catastrophe

Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.

ewq1938 · Dec 12, 2018

BobRyan said:
We all agree that after the 1000 years the saints and Christ are on Earth.

They are on the Earth before and during the 1000 years as well.

And even you admit that after the 1000 years the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven.

After the GWTJ and after the NHNE. You have the city coming much too early and against what scripture says. You are also wrong about who surrounds the city as you claim it's the resurrected dead but they are living mortals who die and then are resurrected for judgment so you have the order of many events incorrect.

In that post above you deny the Revelation pattern of summary-then-expand that is used repeatedly in the book. Ok fine we will skip that "one detail" for now for the sake of not folding too many other topics and staying focused on the title and OP point.

There is no such thing regarding the city of Jerusalem in Rev 20 and the new city coming in Rev 21.

Christ takes all the saints to heaven for 1000 years at the 2nd coming. -- "I will come again" John 14.

That passage does not support the unscriptural theology that Christ comes and takes ppl back to heaven. It's the second coming, he comes to the Earth and never leaves and certainly doesn't take anyone to heaven. Not a single scripture will ever show such a thing which is why you have no scripture for it. "I will come again" is the second coming to t5eh Earth to reign during the thousand years.

the 1000 years are literal -

Yes and it's reigning on the literal earth as well.

But it is not where Christ reigns on Earth because Revelation 19 says all the wicked are killed when Christ comes again (second coming) -

No, it only shows all the wicked in the beasts army are killed. There is nothing global about it plus Rev 2 says the overcomers rule over the nations after Christ returns so the nations are alive and it is they that eventually surround old Jerusalem before being killed and then resurrected.

and John 14 says that when He comes again he takes the saints back with Him - back to heaven.

It does not say that at all. Christ speaks of a place for the dead saints to reside. It has nothing to do with living saints at the second coming.

(Jesus went to heaven Acts 1 and comes back from heaven -- Phil 3:20
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;NASB)

Jesus is in heaven and will only leave heaven one time, for the second coming. There is no third or fourth comings in scripture.

And all the wicked are slain at Christ's coming 2 Thess 1:7-8 Rev 19:17-18

Nope only some of them are.

"Elephant in living room" of all other options on this topic -- is this.
Nothing left here but a desolate Earth - as the OT prophets predicted.

So? There still will be a thousand years with immortal saints ruling over unsaved mortals.

BobRyan · Dec 12, 2018

ewq1938 said:
They are on the Earth before and during the 1000 years as well.

Not if you deal with the details in the OP

BobRyan · Dec 12, 2018

ewq1938 said:
That passage does not support the unscriptural theology that Christ comes and takes ppl back to heaven. It's the second coming,

That was refuted on page 2 - Jesus said " I will come again and RECEIVE you" after saying "I GO to prepare a PLACE for you". That is what happens at the second coming event Jesus is talking about in John 14.

BobRyan said:
BobRyan said: ↑
1. The saints are taken to heaven at Christ's return (second coming) - as Christ promised in John 14.

John 14
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

The "Father in heaven"(Matthew 6 - Lord's Prayer) - to "My Father's house"

Jesus went to heaven. We know in fact "the place" -- is heaven.

Acts 1
9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11 They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

Phil 3:20
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

And now it is also on page 1
Monday at 8:29 PM #7

1000 years in heaven.

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