Distinguishing between right and wrong

zephcom said:

Avoiding the issue is not a solution for how 'God' becomes a monster. There are ways to exonerate God from this charge, but pretending that God is doing people a favor by killing them isn't one of them.

-If- killing people so they can go to a 'better' home is why God does these heinous things begs the question of why did He even bother putting us here in the first place. He is STILL a monster for putting us here so He can kill us.

God can be exonerated, but it requires viewing the Bible from a different perspective. Many people prefer making up excuses for God rather than readjusting their view of the Bible.

Click to expand...

Next the very fundamental, great question: Why are we even here in mortal bodies (all of us) to begin with?

I can tell you my short answer, but you can even better let go of conclusions and read for yourself with an open mind, in which case I recommend to begin with our real life situation first, from Christ Jesus, In his wording, in an account of what He said. I'd suggest the Gospel of Luke in the NIV translation.

Luke 1 NIV

If you want to hear my own short version of why we are here, if you like I will tell you. Just ask.

Halbhh said:

If a person thinks death may be final, they are (reasonably) assuming God can't raise the dead, or alternatively simply that God doesn't exist to begin with.

But the 'killing' any claim God did is from a text source they use to conclude He killed.

Consider: To say God killed anyone to begin with..we are getting this from that text, as the basis for the statement.

We are saying God killed, based on the Bible, right?

In which case what that text actually states is essential in considering the statement.

We can't claim God killed from a text and ignore the text.

The text, that same Bible, says death is only a doorway, and all will live again for what comes next, by the action of the very same God.

This is why in the Bible the metaphor 'sleep' is used, by Jesus the Christ, for example, about mortal death. It's only like sleep, and all will awaken.

So, it's the accurate statement only to say God sent them to what comes next, where the text says such as Romans 2:6-16, and Romans 5:13, and more. (Recommend the more readable NIV translation).

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As I said, how one views the text can either incriminate God in killing people or exonerate Him. In the case of the Flood, the text says God planned it, told -one- family how to survive it and then executed the plan. In any view known in the world that is premeditated mass murder.

The fact of mass murder is not changed by any ability of God, a 'life after death' or any other consideration about God. But that is only the case if one views the Bible as being absolutely accurate in every detail and that the incident occurred -exactly- as it is recorded.

OTOH, humans have an uncanny ability to attribute things they don't understand as something 'God' did. This is even true with things others understand completely as being either pure chance or because of the actions of others. This happens constantly even in this day and age.

It is totally reasonable to view 'God's' role in the Flood story as simply how the people telling the story explained something they didn't understand. IOWs, God didn't do any of the things attributed to Him. There was a massive regional flood at some point in the past which killed huge numbers of people in the area with only a tiny number people who survived.

The people who survived created the story to explain why -they- survived and others didn't. That is totally a human response and we see it every day on the news where survivors thank God for saving them.

It is so totally understandable, that it has to be first and primary way of viewing Biblical stories like the Flood.

Halbhh said:

Next the very fundamental, great question: Why are we even here in mortal bodies (all of us) to begin with?

I can tell you my short answer, but you can even better let go of conclusions and read for yourself with an open mind, in which case I recommend to begin with our real life situation first, from Christ Jesus, In his wording, in an account of what He said. I'd suggest the Gospel of Luke in the NIV translation.

Luke 1 NIV

If you want to hear my own short version of why we are here, if you like I will tell you. Just ask.

Click to expand...

Go ahead with your story. I have my own ideas about that too, but you take the floor first.

zephcom said:

As I said, how one views the text can either incriminate God in killing people or exonerate Him. In the case of the Flood, the text says God planned it, told -one- family how to survive it and then executed the plan. In any view known in the world that is premeditated mass murder.

The fact of mass murder is not changed by any ability of God, a 'life after death' or any other consideration about God. But that is only the case if one views the Bible as being absolutely accurate in every detail and that the incident occurred -exactly- as it is recorded.

OTOH, humans have an uncanny ability to attribute things they don't understand as something 'God' did. This is even true with things others understand completely as being either pure chance or because of the actions of others. This happens constantly even in this day and age.

It is totally reasonable to view 'God's' role in the Flood story as simply how the people telling the story explained something they didn't understand. IOWs, God didn't do any of the things attributed to Him. There was a massive regional flood at some point in the past which killed huge numbers of people in the area with only a tiny number people who survived.

The people who survived created the story to explain why -they- survived and others didn't. That is totally a human response and we see it every day on the news where survivors thank God for saving them.

It is so totally understandable, that it has to be first and primary way of viewing Biblical stories like the Flood.

Click to expand...

While we could talk about the Flood, or not (and I will be answering the other question more than this part), it will be better to have the accurate version at least (of course!). Here's the actual text (which of course does not say God "killed", not exactly....), but does say some crucial aspects few know, because people think they already have the story, but the wording is always surprising when we look more closely, in the Bible. That's an amazing quality of much of the Bible, that the wording seems to change when we look again. This happens especially in the 4 gospels. Just for the accurate version, which really changes our views on a key thing or two, here's an accurate modern translation of that Genesis 6 key passage from the NASB --

5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

9T hese are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God. 10 Noah became the father of three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11 Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.

13 Then God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth."
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Isn't verse 5 surprising? Let's look closely at it in several translations:

New International Version
The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

New Living Translation
The LORD observed the extent of human wickedness on the earth, and he saw that everything they thought or imagined was consistently and totally evil.

English Standard Version
The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Berean Study Bible
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was altogether evil all the time.

New American Standard Bible
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Young's Literal Translation
And Jehovah seeth that abundant is the wickedness of man in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart only evil all the day;
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I don't think people usually believe this.

They don't want or can't understand (?), often, many people, such a situation.

Where there is precisely zero love. None, not even sometimes.

Every inclination of the human heart only ever evil always.

That's....so hard to even imagine, for us, today, here and now.

Right?

What would it even be like.

That there isn't merely some evil, or merely much evil, or even merely predominate evil, but instead the fantastic and impossible-seeming situation of only evil, alone.

Only. Not anything else. Only evil, always. Only hate, murder, rape, brutality. What verse 11 says can't be a hyperbole given verse 5, but instead is the precise statement without any exageration, in order to fit with verse 5. The Earth filled, not having a little, or some, but filled with violence. This is somewhat like an active war zone today, but seeming worse than an active war zone today, because today there are periods of fleeting safety for moments when bullets or mortars aren't flying.

Actually zero love anywhere. None anywhere.

I don't think people can easily believe this, but it's what the text says.

God regretted in his heart that He had even made mankind at all. That to me tells me He did not predetermine evil to achieve a 100% level of domination, without any love left. Else He would not have regretted it in His heart. See, I believe verse 6, instead of ignoring it.

Halbhh said:

While we could talk about the Flood, or not (and I will be answering the other question more than this part), it will be better to have the accurate version at least (of course!). Here's the actual text (which of course does not say God "killed", not exactly....), but does say some crucial aspects few know, because people think they already have the story, but the wording is always surprising when we look more closely, in the Bible. That's an amazing quality of much of the Bible, that the wording seems to change when we look again. This happens especially in the 4 gospels. Just for the accurate version, which really changes our views on a key thing or two, here's an accurate modern translation of that Genesis 6 key passage from the NASB --

5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

9T hese are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God. 10 Noah became the father of three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11 Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.

13 Then God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth."
----------

Isn't verse 5 surprising? Let's look closely at it in several translations:

New International Version
The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

New Living Translation
The LORD observed the extent of human wickedness on the earth, and he saw that everything they thought or imagined was consistently and totally evil.

English Standard Version
The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Berean Study Bible
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was altogether evil all the time.

New American Standard Bible
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Young's Literal Translation
And Jehovah seeth that abundant is the wickedness of man in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart only evil all the day;
-------------

I don't think people usually believe this.

They don't want or can't understand (?), often, many people, such a situation.

Where there is precisely zero love. None, not even sometimes.

Every inclination of the human heart only ever evil always.

That's....so hard to even imagine, for us, today, here and now.

Right?

What would it even be like.

That there isn't merely some evil, or merely much evil, or even merely predominate evil, but instead the fantastic and impossible-seeming situation of only evil, alone.

Only. Not anything else. Only evil, always. Only hate, murder, rape, brutality. What verse 11 says can't be a hyperbole given verse 5, but instead is the precise statement without any exageration, in order to fit with verse 5.

Actually zero love anywhere. None anywhere.

I don't think people can easily believe this, but it's what the text says.

God regretted in his heart that He had even made mankind at all.

Click to expand...

So now God is flawed??? God had already declared His creation of man as good. Now you want us to believe God 'regretted' that He even made mankind.

Things just get worse for God the more you try to make it better. Use Occam's Razor. It brings more clarity to everything, including this.

People created that story to explain why they were not killed too. It existed as an oral tradition for a very long time before being committed to writing. Oral traditions are known to accumulate embellishments.

God did not have anything to do with it. The story is likely based on a natural occurrence and human did what they constantly do even today...use 'God' to explain their good fortune.

zephcom said:

Go ahead with your story. I have my own ideas about that too, but you take the floor first.

Click to expand...

Ok, my own personal wording, which is far less complete than scripture (of course!) is that we are here in a mortal life in order to learn to love and trust. That is not only to love those who love us. Not only them alone. But to love even those who don't earn our love, or who don't seem to deserve it at the moment.

And additionally to trust in God, which isn't at all the same as only knowing He ultimately exists in some sense. To trust is more than just to believe He exists. Why is trust -- "faith" -- so valuable that He intentionally gives us no easy objective proof that would allow belief without trust to be commonplace (such as for instance if God had said in the text "And the Earth was more than 4 thousands of thousands of thousands of years old" -- something that could eventually be proven decisively in a way that would overwhelmingly prove even to those without trust He is the Creator?....)

Why isn't there ever going to be obvious proof? Because He wants "faith" -- trust in Him. This is plainly the goal in the Bible. Over and over Christ is working to build the faith of his disciples.

Why? I think the reason trust is so invaluable is because without it love will eventually falter and die. But with trust that can get past challenges (like that of Job for example), then love can endure forever, in the Life to come. Or put another way, with powerful trust, even an immortal (for instance, any immortal, even an angel) could always be willing to do whatever God says, even if it didn't seem so clearly the best thing to that individual immortal at some moment. With trust (...and forgiveness!), my love relationship with my spouse or children can endure difficulties and problems, because I don't give up faith in them. Love can last, and conflict is kept checked, limited (to the extent I forgive and trust and show it). So trust, Faith, is valuable. It's a key quality we need for eternal life -- to be trusting. Without trust, Faith, it would end up in a war.

Halbhh said:

Ok, my own personal wording, which is far less complete than scripture (of course!) is that we are here in a mortal life in order to learn to love and trust. That is not only to love those who love us. Not only them alone. But to love even those who don't earn our love, or who don't seem to deserve it at the moment.

And additionally to trust in God, which isn't at all the same as only knowing He ultimately exists in some sense. To trust is more than just to believe He exists. Why is trust -- "faith" -- so valuable that He intentionally gives us no easy objective proof that would allow belief without trust to be commonplace (such as for instance if God had said in the text "And the Earth was more than 4 thousands of thousands of thousands of years old" -- something that could eventually be proven decisively in a way that would overwhelmingly prove even to those without trust He is the Creator?....)

Why isn't there ever going to be obvious proof? Because He wants "faith" -- trust in Him. This is plainly the goal in the Bible. Over and over Christ is working to build the faith of his disciples.

Why? I think the reason trust is so invaluable is because without it love will eventually falter and die. But with trust that can get past challenges (like that of Job for example), then love can endure forever, in the Life to come. Or put another way, with powerful trust, even an immortal (for instance, any immortal, even an angel) could always be willing to do whatever God says, even if it didn't seem so clearly the best thing to that individual immortal at some moment. With trust, my love relationship with my spouse or children can endure difficulties and problems, because I don't give up faith in them. Love can last, and conflict is kept out. So trust, Faith, is valuable. It's a key quality we need for eternal life -- to be trusting.

Click to expand...

In some ways you and I are not too far apart. In others...not so close.

In a Cliff Notes version, this existence isn't real. It is a 'role playing' exercise for the spirit being we really are. We come here to learn and grow spiritually. The amnesia of knowing who we truly are is necessary for the learning and growing.

Teachers like Jesus exist in this existence to show the way for growing our spirituality. As a spirit being occupying a physical shell, we are already immortals.

zephcom said:

So now God is flawed??? God had already declared His creation of man as good. Now you want us to believe God 'regretted' that He even made mankind.

Things just get worse for God the more you try to make it better. Use Occam's Razor. It brings more clarity to everything, including this.

People created that story to explain why they were not killed too. It existed as an oral tradition for a very long time before being committed to writing. Oral traditions are known to accumulate embellishments.

God did not have anything to do with it. The story is likely based on a natural occurrence and human did what they constantly do even today...use 'God' to explain their good fortune.

Click to expand...

That existence (creation, this universe, this world, the basis for existence, and the environment we are in) is "good" doesn't mean we are constrained to only do good ourselves.

Instead, in any conception, if a being is intelligent, able to learn and change, and has true and real freedom of action, and is living with other beings that also are alike in these ways, then it follows as the only possible outcome that both loving and evil actions will certainly be done by these beings.

As the only possible outcome of intelligence combined with agency and freedom. There is no such thing as 'freedom of action', agency, without being able to do free actions (to choose and do).

There isn't a way to have love without the possibility of evil. You can't control a being in a way that prevents evil but allows love as we know and value it, which is an response of a being with intelligence and agency. A stick or a cup of water can't "love" me in any good way I would treasure or care about over time which continues without end. Put into another common wording, a robot doesn't truly love, if it merely follows a set program. Neither a puppet, which is also merely doing as controlled.

(my spell checker stopped working, btw )

Halbhh said:

That existence (creation, this universe, this world, the basis for existence, and the invironment we are in) is "good" doesn't mean we are constrained to only do good ourselves.

Instead, in any conception, if a being is intelligent, able to learn and change, and has true and real freedom of action, and is living with other beings that also are alike in these ways, then it follows as the only possible outcome that both loving and evil actions will certainly be done by these beings.

As the only possible oucome of intelligence combined with agency and freedom.

There isn't a way to have love without the possibility of evil. You can't control a being in a way that prevents evil but allows love as we know and value it, which is an response of a being with intelligence and agency. A stick or a cup of water can't "love" me in any good way I would treasure or care about over time which continues without end.

Click to expand...

Genesis 1:31

"God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day."

And all that He made included man and woman.

I'm still back at the idea that in order to make your version of the Flood work, you created a flawed God...A God who declared His creation, including humans, as 'good' and then regretted creating these humans.

At least my concept of that story doesn't require a flawed God for it to be understood.

zephcom said:

Genesis 1:31

"God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day."

And all that He made included man and woman.

I'm still back at the idea that in order to make your version of the Flood work, you created a flawed God...A God who declared His creation, including humans, as 'good' and then regretted creating these humans.

At least my concept of that story doesn't require a flawed God for it to be understood.

Click to expand...

Do you mean the version of the Flood in Genesis chapter 6, such as in the NASB translation I quoted? It's the same in the NIV, or ESV, or YLT translation, and all the major translations. They all are saying God regretted He had made mankind, in His heart. That's just the text, though you can word it in various ways, with the same essential meaning. It's not 'my' version, of the Flood, but the text version. Or do you mean something else?

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Various translations of the amazing verse 6:
New International Version
The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.

New Living Translation
So the LORD was sorry he had ever made them and put them on the earth. It broke his heart.

English Standard Version
And the LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

Berean Study Bible
And the LORD regretted that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him in His heart.

New American Standard Bible
The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

King James Bible
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Young's Literal Translation
and Jehovah repenteth that He hath made man in the earth, and He grieveth Himself -- unto His heart.

zephcom said:

Go ahead with your story. I have my own ideas about that too, but you take the floor first.

Click to expand...

Let me say again better -- my own way of explaining why we are here isn't as good as reading through the Bible, but instead it's useful for me to help remember some particular things I wondered about especially. It's some aspects, some key things I focus on.

The scripture, the Bible, says far more, and of course, better.

So from me about the why-we-are-here-in-mortal-bodies, my wordings will just be some parts of the reasons that are important to me, in my own view, which is much less complete in these little answers than the more sweeping and full scripture itself.

The scripture is subtle and powerful in ways we cannot paraphrase!

Halbhh said:

Do you mean the version of the Flood in Genesis chapter 6, such as in the NASB translation I quoted? It's the same in the NIV, or ESV, or YLT. They all are saying God regretted He had made mankind, in His heart. That's just the text, though you can word it in various ways, with the same essential meaning. It's not 'my' version, of the Flood, but the text version. Or do you mean something else?

Click to expand...

I'm sure that is what the text says. I also am sure that is evidence for the fact that the story is not an accurate depiction of what occurred. If one is going to maintain God as a perfect being, then one has to understand things one reads about God within the context of God being a perfect being.

Using that concept, either God didn't say the creation was good or He didn't say He regretted making humans. The most likely place where someone got it wrong is the Flood story because that story is almost certainly not true as it is related anyway.

But to accept BOTH accounts as true and accurate requires one to accept that God is flawed. <shrug> I don't accept that God is flawed.

zephcom said:

I'm sure that is what the text says. I also am sure that is evidence for the fact that the story is not an accurate depiction of what occurred. If one is going to maintain God as a perfect being, then one has to understand things one reads about God within the context of God being a perfect being.

Using that concept, either God didn't say the creation was good or He didn't say He regretted making humans. The most likely place where someone got it wrong is the Flood story because that story is almost certainly not true as it is related anyway.

But to accept BOTH accounts as true and accurate requires one to accept that God is flawed. <shrug> I don't accept that God is flawed.

Click to expand...

Ok. Do you see it, or conceive it, that free beings in a good environment could only do loving actions? (would be unable to do harmful actions intentionally)

That unloving actions would be impossible? To me, that doesn't seem to fit the meaning of 'love' or 'good' -- to do to others as you would have others do to you.

In a situation of true freedom, beings can do to others things they would not want others to do to them.

Some would, in time, inevitably, regardless of how wonderful the environment is, because it's possible to do. They'd try it out. Eventually, as part of....even just to find out, as part of growing up.

In any possible creation, with any existence (any environment of any kind), if there is real freedom, then young intelligences existing in time with freedom to act will try things out, including untrusting and unloving things, things that will harm others, simply in order to find out what it's like. Because of the freedom of action, and the inexperience. Not yet knowing just how bad (awful, painful, horrible, suffering) doing to others what you'd not want done to yourself actually is.

I didn't capture everything there in that last post about doing harmful actions, but I did try to get at one part.
There is more in the Garden of Eden story than I've tried to get at here. There is a deeper level of meaning about trust and judgement and suffering, how they fit together, and the story itself has that deeper level of meaning in it, if one listens with real openess to it, as if hearing it for the first time, without preconception.

Halbhh said:

Ok. Do you see it, or conceive it, that free beings in a good environment could only do loving actions? (would be unable to do harmful actions intentionally)

That unloving actions would be impossible? To me, that doesn't seem to fit the meaning of 'love' or 'good' -- to do to others as you would have others do to you.

In a situation of true freedom, beings can do to others things they would not want others to do to them.

Some would, in time, inevitably, regardless of how wonderful the environment is, because it's possible to do. They'd try it out. Eventually, as part of....even just to find out, as part of growing up.

In any possible creation, with any existence (any environment of any kind), if there is real freedom, then young intelligences existing in time with freedom to act will try things out, including untrusting and unloving things, things that will harm others, simply in order to find out what it's like. Because of the freedom of action, and the inexperience. Not yet knowing just how bad (awful, painful, horrible, suffering) doing to others what you'd not want done to yourself actually is.

Click to expand...

Of course I don't see things that way. This goes back to the meaning of why we are here. If we are here to learn and grow spiritually, we need adversity to provide the situations for us to do that.

That is another reason why I don't think God regretted making us. I think everything is going exactly as God intended. Remember, this life isn't real.

zephcom said:

Of course I don't see things that way. This goes back to the meaning of why we are here. If we are here to learn and grow spiritually, we need adversity to provide the situations for us to do that.

That is another reason why I don't think God regretted making us. I think everything is going exactly as God intended. Remember, this life isn't real.

Click to expand...

Ah, actually your view is then very aligned to the Bible in quite a few ways (I know having read it very closely and carefully). See, any parent will have moments of regret, no matter how perfect the parent is, because it's not possible for a young growing being to never do wrong, nor to never get into a situation of ongoing wrong for a time. Also, culture is itself merely a...bigger version of individual freedom in one way: it's its own thing, evolving, happening, which can go wrong at times, and stay that way, worsening, just as Germany worsened during the late 1930s, going from not-good to even worse, in culture. Instead of waiting indefinitely to hit the reset button, instead of letting the last loving family get swept away or destoryed by the evil, God intervened, just like a parent would, to stop the evil, before it swept away the last of the good.

This is just inevitable as best I can tell, and the parent regrets having to curtail the freedom, send the wrong doers to correction, but there's not a choice, at some moments, because things have gone south in such a way. No choice but to intervene and reset the situation. One regrets one allowed the child any freedom, yet....it was also the only way. There's just no other scenario with real love possible except when there is real freedom. Unless one is content for people to be only plants, or only puppets, which is so, so, so much less rich and rewarding, in the end. We have both real evil but also real love and real awe and real joy. This is better than programmed robots or puppets. Trust/love is the only real solution, and it requires some experience, error/wrongs, and repenting/turning back to the good.

But it does make perfect sense to me this comes down to what is omniscience and whether the future is predetermined. If the future is predetermined, fixed, then our actions are merely like a train on a track, already set, and there is no real choice, no real freedom. I think that's not our situation, which is so much better than that, with real evil and real good, both. We have some ineffable something that is able to choose, and is not fixed, not rigid, not predetermined. Not merely complex and determined, but instead truly free.

Introverted1293 said:

There are things that I know are wrong, like killing someone or lying. But I have a hard time distinguishing between right and wrong.

Is it right for me to isolate myself from people as long as I don't hurt? I don't know.

Is it right for me to move to this place or that place, even though my parents are against it, because they need help in their old age? I don't know.

Can I be a Christian and not attend church because I am afraid of getting hurt? I don't know.

Should I give a homeless man some money that is standing outside of Walmart holding a sign when people are telling me that he will go and buy drugs? I don't know

Should I allow a homeless man stay at my house, even though he could kill me in my sleep; or would it be wrong for me to deny him a place simply because I don't trust him? I don't know.

These are driving me nuts.

I don't expect you to answer every single question. I just want to know, how do you distinguish between right and wrong when it is not completely obvious?

Click to expand...

The thread has got a little sidetracked but I thought I'd throw in my two cents on your last points. If you want to help the homeless but are unsure about how best to do it - why not give your money to a charity that supports and provides shelter for homeless people?

You could also see if your church runs a shelter, and if so, help out there. If not, hey why not start a programme in your church? This might also help with your social anxieties by giving you a practical way to interact with people and mitigate against your fears of being hurt.

Halbhh said:

Ah, actually your view is then very aligned to the Bible in quite a few ways (I know having read it very closely and carefully). See, any parent will have moments of regret, no matter how perfect the parent is, because it's not possible for a young growing being to never do wrong, nor to never get into a situation of ongoing wrong for a time. Also, culture is itself merely a...bigger version of individual freedom in one way: it's its own thing, evolving, happening, which can go wrong at times, and stay that way, worsening, just as Germany worsened during the late 1930s, going from not-good to even worse, in culture. Instead of waiting indefinitely to hit the reset button, instead of letting the last loving family get swept away or destoryed by the evil, God intervened, just like a parent would, to stop the evil, before it swept away the last of the good.

This is just inevitable as best I can tell, and the parent regrets having to curtail the freedom, send the wrong doers to correction, but there's not a choice, at some moments, because things have gone south in such a way. No choice but to intervene and reset the situation. One regrets one allowed the child any freedom, yet....it was also the only way. There's just no other scenario with real love possible except when there is real freedom. Unless one is content for people to be only plants, or only puppets, which is so, so, so much less rich and rewarding, in the end. We have both real evil but also real love and real awe and real joy. This is better than programmed robots or puppets. Trust/love is the only real solution, and it requires some experience, error/wrongs, and repenting/turning back to the good.

But it does make perfect sense to me this comes down to what is omniscience and whether the future is predetermined. If the future is predetermined, fixed, then our actions are merely like a train on a track, already set, and there is no real choice, no real freedom. I think that's not our situation, which is so much better than that, with real evil and real good, both. We have some ineffable something that is able to choose, and is not fixed, not rigid, not predetermined. Not merely complex and determined, but instead truly free.

Click to expand...

God is not a parent. Creator maybe, but not a parent. And imposing human emotions onto God makes no sense to me. Just because a parent may feel a sense of regret does not translate to God.

As far as freedom goes, if there is an all knowing God there isn't a chance at all that there is the freedom to choose. The future is fixed and unchangeable. This goes back to the perfection of God. Once God knows the future, nothing in creation including humans is capable of making God wrong. That fixes the future as certainly as a movie is fixed.

Of course we do have the illusion of choice.........

Halbhh said:

Do you mean the version of the Flood in Genesis chapter 6, such as in the NASB translation I quoted? It's the same in the NIV, or ESV, or YLT translation, and all the major translations. They all are saying God regretted He had made mankind, in His heart. That's just the text, though you can word it in various ways, with the same essential meaning. It's not 'my' version, of the Flood, but the text version. Or do you mean something else?

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Various translations of the amazing verse 6:
New International Version
The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.

New Living Translation
So the LORD was sorry he had ever made them and put them on the earth. It broke his heart.

English Standard Version
And the LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

Berean Study Bible
And the LORD regretted that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him in His heart.

New American Standard Bible
The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

King James Bible
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Young's Literal Translation
and Jehovah repenteth that He hath made man in the earth, and He grieveth Himself -- unto His heart.

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These texts simply call into question the supposed omniscience of the biblical god. Why would an omniscient being be surprised or feel grief and regret as a result of the behaviour of his creation? Did their behaviour come as an unpleasant surprise to him? Surely an omniscient being would have known how things would turn out even before it started its creation?
It seems strange that a supposedly omniscient being would create something, and being omniscient know that things would get so bad that it would find it necessary to destroy that creation. Strange too that the creator blames his creation for its shortcomings when those shortcomings can only be attributed to a flaw in the creator's own design. This would also call into question the creators supposed omnipotence.
The whole thing makes so little sense that it seems to me it is nothing more than a tale thought up by primitive man to try and explain things they just did not understand. The god in this story comes across as being incompetent and psychotic which is hardly surprising. Human failings in a man-made god!

zephcom said:

God is not a parent. Creator maybe, but not a parent. And imposing human emotions onto God makes no sense to me. Just because a parent may feel a sense of regret does not translate to God.

As far as freedom goes, if there is an all knowing God there isn't a chance at all that there is the freedom to choose. The future is fixed and unchangeable. This goes back to the perfection of God. Once God knows the future, nothing in creation including humans is capable of making God wrong. That fixes the future as certainly as a movie is fixed.

Of course we do have the illusion of choice.........

Click to expand...

Because of Jesus the Christ, God is indeed our Father for all of us who come to Christ in faith! You can learn more about this in the 4 gospels, which will surprise you over and over (even if you've read them before!). This is because God loves --

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. "