Was 1948 the Regathering of Israel in Bible Prophecy?

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BABerean2

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25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Luk 21:27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

.
 
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BABerean2

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Do do you also deny the existence of a jewish race?

Mat 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:




1Ti_1:4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

.
 
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Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Luk 21:27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."
Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
 
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parousia70

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So you also deny that Hitler killed 6 million Jews?

(I'll do you the favor of putting Godwins Law aside for the moment)
No I do not.
But the Jews Hitler Killed were a multi-ethnic group of peoples who followed the post-Christian religion of the Babylonian Talmud, they did not follow Moses or the Law, nor did they have the ancient Hebrew Bloodlines.

Like many today, Hitler was duped into believing otherwise, and the consequences of such misbelief are self evident...I urge you not to fall into the same trap Hitler did, for we all know how that turned out.

This DNA argument reeks of antisemitism. Many here are on this bandwagon, and it's very sad. It's from the Devil.

But do you not agree that there are indeed Jews today who do not possess the Ancient Hebrew Bloodlines, Or is your argument that Sammy Davis Jr, Dr Laura and Rossane Barr are all of the same ancient Hebrew Race?

Is conversion to Judaism today a real thing in your view? Or are you only jewish by DNA? Can someone Convert from one "race" to another in your view?
Please explain the mechanics behind that... How does a Racial Greek convert into a Racial Jew? What happens to their DNA in the process?

If you personally assert that there are ANY Jews Today who do NOT possess the ancient Hebrew Bloodlines, is that belief of yours "From the Devil" or is it only From the Devil when OTHER PEOPLE make the claim, but you get a pass?

By your logic only Christians are Jews.... But this contradicts the NT everywhere.

Does it?
The Israelite apostles of the Jewish Messiah say I am a Jew (Rom 2:27-29), say I am "Abraham's seed" (Rom 4:16/Gal 3:29), say I am "the peculiar people, royal priesthood, holy nation" (1 Pet 2:9-10), say I am the circumcision-less Israel of God (Gal 6:15-16), say I am "no longer a stranger but a fellow citizen of the commonwealth of Israel" (Eph 2:19), say I was once not a people but now am the people of God (1 Pet 2:10) and say I am the circumcision (Phil 3:2-3). Each and every one of these statements takes a key identifier/distinctive of Israel and labels me with it. Meanwhile, Christ calls the disobedient genetic sons of Abraham the "sons of satan" and the "synagogue of satan" (Rev 2:9/John 8:39-47), and St. John says that those who deny the Son have no claim whatsoever to the Father (1 Jn 2:23)

The "church" is not something separate from Israel, but rather is the remnant of the faithful within Israel.

Acts 7:38 speaks of "the church in the wilderness" with Moses. Likewise, Isaiah pointed out that in times of Israel's great apostasies, the faithful of the nation were reduced to a tiny remnant of elect ones (Isaiah 1:8-9). So it was in the first century, where Paul identifies himself as an example of the faithful remnant (Romans 11:1-5).

Moreover, the apostles continually say that the members of the Nazarene sect are the true elect ones (2 Tim 2:10; Col 3:12; Galatians 6:15-16; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 2:9-10 ). The Church is the faithful ones of Israel.

Israelites that accept Christ don't cease to be Israel, as you would have it. Rather, they are the obedient Israel, the remnant of Israel, the elect of Israel. They were the church long before a single gentile was added to their number years later. The Church is Jewish and is Israel at its very foundations and origins (the Israeli apostles).

IN CONTRAST to the ABUNDANCE of Scripture above, you count only the disobedient Jews as Israel! The obedient Israelites, who get baptized, somehow cease to be Israel, in your teaching. That's completely backwards. Completely. I hope you will someday teach the truth: namely, that the jews who refuse to get baptized get "cut off from among the people of God" (Acts 3:22-24) and cease to be "sons of Abraham." Such disobedient ones are called "sons of satan" (John 8:39-47/Rev 2:9). You are turned completely around backwards with regard to this topic. The apostles and Mary and Joseph and their Jewish followers are TRUE ISRAEL and the true church. Those people went out and added gentiles to themselves as by a grafting in process to the commonwealth.

Israel survived *exclusively* in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. The church always was the covenanted Israel, the church continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).
 
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parousia70

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Do do you also deny the existence of a jewish race?

Which Jew(s) here do you assert are of the Jewish Race and which are not?


Take all the time you need.
(Just Please don't say it's only the white guy...)
 
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Which Jew(s) here do you assert are of the Jewish Race and which are not?


Take all the time you need.
(Just Please don't say it's only the white guy...)

Okay so you also deny there is such a thing as a jewish race (even to the point of denying the holocaust was a jewish holocaust). So when the Bible uses the word, what is it referring to?
 
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keras

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Okay so you also deny there is such a thing as a jewish race (even to the point of denying the holocaust was a jewish holocaust). So when the Bible uses the word, what is it referring to?
Paul tells us exactly who a true Jew is: A person who is circumcised of the heart; spiritually, not literally. Romans 2:20
Realize this: people are what they claim to be. You claim to be American, but what is your actual racial origin? I claim to be a New Zealander, but my origins are Scottish and English. And what their origins are, who can guess?
Those citizens of the State of Israel who claim to be Jewish and many others around the world, actually have no proof of actual descent from Judah. Just tradition and it is a fact that many have become Jews by conversion to Judaism.

Therefore saying there is a Jewish race, a special group of people kept apart by God, is not correct and it contradicts clear Bible teachings of ethnicity having no value in Salvation.

We know why you must have a Jewish people around in the end times. It is so you can go to heaven, while they pass thru Judgement and eventually get saved.
Neither the 'rapture' or a Jewish redemption will happen, both theories are unbiblical and contrary to what the Bible prophets actually tell us will happen.
 
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Paul tells us exactly who a true Jew is: A person who is circumcised of the heart; spiritually, not literally. Romans 2:20
Realize this: people are what they claim to be. You claim to be American, but what is your actual racial origin? I claim to be a New Zealander, but my origins are Scottish and English. And what their origins are, who can guess?
Those citizens of the State of Israel who claim to be Jewish and many others around the world, actually have no proof of actual descent from Judah. Just tradition and it is a fact that many have become Jews by conversion to Judaism.

Therefore saying there is a Jewish race, a special group of people kept apart by God, is not correct and it contradicts clear Bible teachings of ethnicity having no value in Salvation.

We know why you must have a Jewish people around in the end times. It is so you can go to heaven, while they pass thru Judgement and eventually get saved.
Neither the 'rapture' or a Jewish redemption will happen, both theories are unbiblical and contrary to what the Bible prophets actually tell us will happen.
LOL, the rapture of the church will happen and the Jews will be redeemed. Here we can see 12,000 of them being redeemed.

Rev 14
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

As we know that 12,000 of the 144,000 are from the tribe of Judah.

Rev 7
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

It's nice that we have the word of God to prove your contentions incorrect. God has already told us what He is going to do. I'm sorry that you don't believe that He knows who is who.
 
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parousia70

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Okay so you also deny there is such a thing as a jewish race

First, Since you assert there is such a thing as a Jewish race TODAY, which of the people pictured in the post of mine you quoted do you assert belong to that one homogeneous Jewish Race today ?

And when someone converts to Judaism, do they become part of that ONE Jewish Race?
Is that your contention?

Do you believe there are ANY Jews today who are not part of the Jewish Race?

(even to the point of denying the holocaust was a jewish holocaust)

Please quote ANY statement of mine where I denied the Holocaust was a Jewish Holocaust, or, retract your false accusation and apologize.

You asked me: "So you also deny that Hitler killed 6 million Jews?"
And I replied: "No I do not"

What manner of interpretation of my statement do you then employ to come up with the Idea that I "deny the Jewish Holocaust", when I plainly, directly said, "No I do Not"??

And for the love of everything Jewish, please address the myriad of scripture I cited in support of my contentions, and demonstrate why they do not mean what I contend, if you can.
 
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parousia70

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So when the Bible uses the word, what is it referring to?

With little hope you will actually read this and, even less hope you will set aside your pride and accept the scriptural truth I'm about to demonstrate here, I'll go ahead and answer your question for the benefit of our readers who are truly seeking an answer with a genuine heart.

What the Bible Means by "Jew, Jewish, Israel"

In the Old Testament era, Israel was that nation of men that descended from Abraham through his sons, Isaac and Jacob (Gen 17:19; 21:9-12). Jacob was renamed "Israel" (Gen 32:28), and from Jacob came twelve sons who became patriarchs of twelve tribes, or families, of Abraham's descendants. These families famously became known as the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

Though the most visible component of Israel's identity was familial and marked in the flesh with the mark of circumcision (Gen 17:10-11), from the earliest times certain foreigners sojourned among the Hebrew tribes and began following the Hebrew religion and way of life. These gentile migrants lacked the ancestral link to Abraham that the natural-born descendants possessed, but they nevertheless were permitted to be circumcised (Gen 17:11-13) and assimilated fully into the native-born people of God by way of conversion:

"If a man from another country is living with you, and has a desire to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all the males of his family undergo circumcision, and then let him come near and keep it; for he will then be as one of your people; but no one without circumcision may keep it. The law is the same for him who is an Israelite by birth and for the man from a strange country who is living with you." (Ex 12:48-49)

Gentiles who converted to the Hebrew religion in this way and sojourned among the tribes of Israel were grafted into the people of God and given full status as true Israelites. Many such naturalized citizens existed among the members of Israel, though the natural-born sons of Abraham always comprised a majority of the citizenry.

While racial descent from Abraham (through Isaac and Jacob, "Israel") was central to identifying the members of Israel in Old Testament times, God made it clear that all Israelites who disobeyed His covenant would be "cut off" from among the true people of God:
"He who is born in your house...must be circumcised. My covenant will be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. The uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people. He has broken my covenant." (Gen 17:13-14)

Soon it became clear that other violations of the covenant also served to "cut off" individuals from among the people of God (Lev 18:29; Num 15:30-31; Ex 12:15,19; Ex 31:14; Lev 7:20-27; Lev 23:28-30). Such a person was at that point considered a heathen and not a child of Abraham. This practice of exclusion from the covenant society continued down to Ezra's time (Ezra 10:8) and even to Christ's day (Jn 9:22; Jn 12:42; Mt. 18:15-17; 1 Cor 5:1-2,5,11-13).

In reality, conformity to God's covenantal commands, above all else, determined one's status as a member of Israel. Put another way, a person's identity with Israel was derived from and maintained by obedience----for the natural-born citizen's privilege as Israel could be nullified through disobedience, and the foreigner's status as an alien of Israel could be removed through obedience.

At times the issue of obedience became paramount for the nation of Israel. Scripture records numerous apostasies by--and subsequent excommunications of--seditious sons of Abraham. Examples may be multiplied: God struck down thousands of rebellious Israelites in the wilderness (Num 14:26-45; Num 21:5-9; Num 16:1-50), though the church was preserved and led to the Promised Land (Acts 7:38-45); In Isaiah's day, apostasy became so rampant that Israel continued to exist through a small but faithful remnant (Isa 10:22-23; Isa 1:7-9; Rom 9:27-29); In Elijah's era, the multitude of Israelites who worshiped the false god Baal was so great that faithful Israel narrowed to a mere seven thousand men (1 Kings 19:1-18; Rom 11:2-4). Lastly, at the close of the Old Testamental age, Israel was again reduced to a small remnant of faithful elect ones (Rom 11:5). The Jewish Pharisees and temple rulers grew wicked to the point of killing God's holy Messiah and apostles (1 Thess 2:14-16), and throngs wanted Caesar as king instead of Messiah, the son of David (Jn 19:15). Then as in times past, true Israel survived and continued on through the faithful sons, while the unfaithful apostates were "cut off" from among the people.

The severe sedition and schism that took place in Christ's generation between the faithful sons and the disobedient brothers was not without warning. As St. Peter testified to his contemporary Jewish brethren:
"For Moses said: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me: him you shall hear according to all things whatsoever he shall speak to you. And it shall be, that every soul which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.And all the prophets, from Samuel and afterwards, who have spoken, have told of these days." (Acts 3:22-24)

THIS is exactly what happened in the first century.

As Moses and St. Peter had forewarned, the wicked sons of Israel of that generation were dramatically cut off at the destruction of Jerusalem, at AD 66-70. The disobedient sons received many dire warnings from Jesus the Messiah:
"Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...you are the sons of them that killed the prophets. Fill up then the measure of your fathers. You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell? Therefore behold I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you will put to death and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: That upon you may come all the just blood that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar. Amen I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not? Behold, you house shall be left to you, desolate" (Matt 23:29,33-38)

Again the Messiah predicted the imminent destruction of the rebellious sons:
When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." (Luke 19:41-44)

As a testimony to God's providential care for his faithful remnant, the obedient sons of Abraham were miraculously spared and protected while the wicked sons were judged and destroyed from among the people. Addresing his beloved apostles and followers, Jesus said:
"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles" (Luke 21:20-22).

Once the faithful nation of God's elect were miraculously protected, the doom predicted for wicked brothers would commence. As Jesus forewarned:
"When therefore the Lord therefore of the vineyard comes, what will he do unto those vine-growers? They said unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will rent out his vineyard unto other vine-growers, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus said unto them, Did you never read in the scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, this became the chief corner stone: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?' Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits of it. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Mt 21:40-45)

And so true Israel---the sons of Abraham who followed the Messiah, as manifested by Providence and by history---was again preserved during a time of national apostasy and tribulation. As was the case in former times with Moses, Elijah, and Isaiah, countless apostates were cut off from among the people. But God's elect Israel, the faithful remnant, triumphed and continued on, spreading the good news of the Kingdom of God to the entire world, in and through the Jewish Church.

Israel survived *exclusively* in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. The church always was the covenanted Israel, the church continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).
 
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Paul tells us exactly who a true Jew is: A person who is circumcised of the heart; spiritually, not literally. Romans 2:20
....

Okay, great. Jews, according to you, are those circumcised of the heart, i.e. believers. The word then should be interchangeable with the word believer, in that it should at least make sense that the people being spoken about are implied to be believers, circumcised of the heart.

No need to argue. Let's put it to the test. Let's survey the various places in the NT Church age where the word is used, and see if it's generally referring to heart-circumcised believers. If it is, then we should never come across any instances where Jews are considered unbelievers or opponents of the Gospel. For that would militate against them being circumcised of the heart.

Acts 9:22 But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews (those who dwelt in Damascus, proving that this Jesus is the Christ.

Acts 9:23 Now after many days were past, the Jews plotted to kill him.​

Hmm. These don't sound like men circumcised of the heart.

Acts 12:3 And because he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to seize Peter also. Now it was during the Days of Unleavened Bread.​

This one is very interesting. Peter is seized because it pleased heart-circumcised believers??? Does that make sense to you? Or how about this one?

Acts 13:6 Now when they had gone through the island to Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew whose name was Bar-Jesus,​

So now we have to believe that a false prophet can be a heart-circumcised believer?? After all, he's called a jew and you defined a jew categorically as a heart-circumcized believer. And look at this next one!

Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul.​

Heart-circumcised believers were filled with envy? And this one is really interesting.

Acts 14:1 Now it happened in Iconium that they went together to the synagogue of the Jews, and so spoke that a great multitude both of the Jews and of the Greeks believed. 2 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brethren.​

What? Unbelieving Jews? Did you catch that? How can this be? I thought you said Jews were merely Christians with spiritually circumcised hearts? But these Jews rejected Jesus, yet Luke still calls them Jews? Why is that? The same seems to be said here as well:

Acts 14:4 But the multitude of the city was divided: part sided with the Jews, and part with the apostles. 5 And when a violent attempt was made by both the Gentiles and Jews, with their rulers, to abuse and stone them,​

And here you have heart-circumcised believers stoning Paul. You sure you want to stick with this definition?

Acts 14:19 Then Jews from Antioch and Iconium came there; and having persuaded the multitudes, they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing him to be dead.​

Does this sound like heart circumcised believers to you?

Acts 17:5 But the Jews who were not persuaded, becoming envious, took some of the evil men from the marketplace, and gathering a mob, set all the city in an uproar and attacked the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.​

Circumcised of the heart not persuaded?? How does that work with your definition? Not persuaded and persecuting the Apostles? You have more instances of this here:

Acts 18:12 When Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews with one accord rose up against Paul and brought him to the judgment seat,

Acts 20:3 and stayed three months. And when the Jews plotted against him as he was about to sail to Syria, he decided to return through Macedonia.

Acts 20:19 serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews;

Acts 21:11 When he had come to us, he took Paul’s belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit, ‘So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’ ”

Acts 21:27 Now when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews from Asia, seeing him in the temple, stirred up the whole crowd and laid hands on him,

Acts 23:12 And when it was day, some of the Jews banded together and bound themselves under an oath, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul.

Acts 23:27 This man was seized by the Jews and was about to be killed by them. Coming with the troops I rescued him, having learned that he was a Roman.

Acts 23:30 And when it was told me that the Jews lay in wait for the man, I sent him immediately to you, and also commanded his accusers to state before you the charges against him. Farewell.

Acts 25:7 When he had come, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood about and laid many serious complaints against Paul, which they could not prove, 8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

Acts 25:24 And Festus said: “King Agrippa and all the men who are here present with us, you see this man about whom the whole assembly of the Jews petitioned me, both at Jerusalem and here, crying out that he was not fit to live any longer.

Acts 26:2 “I think myself happy, King Agrippa, because today I shall answer for myself before you concerning all the things of which I am accused by the Jews, 3 especially because you are expert in all customs and questions which have to do with the Jews. Therefore I beg you to hear me patiently.

Acts 26:7 To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain. For this hope’s sake, King Agrippa, I am accused by the Jews.

Acts 26:21 For these reasons the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me.​

Tt would appear your definition of Jew is faulty at best. If it were true, one can oppose Christ, the apostles and christianity sill be heart-circumcised believer. I think it's time to revaluate your definition.
 
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With little hope you will actually read this and, even less hope you will set aside your pride and accept the scriptural truth I'm about to demonstrate here, I'll go ahead and answer your question for the benefit of our readers.

What the Bible Means by "Jew, Jewish, Israel"

In the Old Testament era, Israel was that nation of men that descended from Abraham through his sons, Isaac and Jacob (Gen 17:19; 21:9-12). Jacob was renamed "Israel" (Gen 32:28), and from Jacob came twelve sons who became patriarchs of twelve tribes, or families, of Abraham's descendants. These families famously became known as the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

Though the most visible component of Israel's identity was familial and marked in the flesh with the mark of circumcision (Gen 17:10-11), from the earliest times certain foreigners sojourned among the Hebrew tribes and began following the Hebrew religion and way of life. These gentile migrants lacked the ancestral link to Abraham that the natural-born descendants possessed, but they nevertheless were permitted to be circumcised (Gen 17:11-13) and assimilated fully into the native-born people of God by way of conversion:

"If a man from another country is living with you, and has a desire to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all the males of his family undergo circumcision, and then let him come near and keep it; for he will then be as one of your people; but no one without circumcision may keep it. The law is the same for him who is an Israelite by birth and for the man from a strange country who is living with you." (Ex 12:48-49)

Gentiles who converted to the Hebrew religion in this way and sojourned among the tribes of Israel were grafted into the people of God and given full status as true Israelites. Many such naturalized citizens existed among the members of Israel, though the natural-born sons of Abraham always comprised a majority of the citizenry.

While racial descent from Abraham (through Isaac and Jacob, "Israel") was central to identifying the members of Israel in Old Testament times, God made it clear that all Israelites who disobeyed His covenant would be "cut off" from among the true people of God:
"He who is born in your house...must be circumcised. My covenant will be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. The uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people. He has broken my covenant." (Gen 17:13-14)

Soon it became clear that other violations of the covenant also served to "cut off" individuals from among the people of God (Lev 18:29; Num 15:30-31; Ex 12:15,19; Ex 31:14; Lev 7:20-27; Lev 23:28-30). Such a person was at that point considered a heathen and not a child of Abraham. This practice of exclusion from the covenant society continued down to Ezra's time (Ezra 10:8) and even to Christ's day (Jn 9:22; Jn 12:42; Mt. 18:15-17; 1 Cor 5:1-2,5,11-13).

In reality, conformity to God's covenantal commands, above all else, determined one's status as a member of Israel. Put another way, a person's identity with Israel was derived from and maintained by obedience----for the natural-born citizen's privilege as Israel could be nullified through disobedience, and the foreigner's status as an alien of Israel could be removed through obedience.

At times the issue of obedience became paramount for the nation of Israel. Scripture records numerous apostasies by--and subsequent excommunications of--seditious sons of Abraham. Examples may be multiplied: God struck down thousands of rebellious Israelites in the wilderness (Num 14:26-45; Num 21:5-9; Num 16:1-50), though the church was preserved and led to the Promised Land (Acts 7:38-45); In Isaiah's day, apostasy became so rampant that Israel continued to exist through a small but faithful remnant (Isa 10:22-23; Isa 1:7-9; Rom 9:27-29); In Elijah's era, the multitude of Israelites who worshiped the false god Baal was so great that faithful Israel narrowed to a mere seven thousand men (1 Kings 19:1-18; Rom 11:2-4). Lastly, at the close of the Old Testamental age, Israel was again reduced to a small remnant of faithful elect ones (Rom 11:5). The Jewish Pharisees and temple rulers grew wicked to the point of killing God's holy Messiah and apostles (1 Thess 2:14-16), and throngs wanted Caesar as king instead of Messiah, the son of David (Jn 19:15). Then as in times past, true Israel survived and continued on through the faithful sons, while the unfaithful apostates were "cut off" from among the people.

The severe sedition and schism that took place in Christ's generation between the faithful sons and the disobedient brothers was not without warning. As St. Peter testified to his contemporary Jewish brethren:
"For Moses said: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me: him you shall hear according to all things whatsoever he shall speak to you. And it shall be, that every soul which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.And all the prophets, from Samuel and afterwards, who have spoken, have told of these days." (Acts 3:22-24)

THIS is exactly what happened in the first century.

As Moses and St. Peter had forewarned, the wicked sons of Israel of that generation were dramatically cut off at the destruction of Jerusalem, at AD 66-70. The disobedient sons received many dire warnings from Jesus the Messiah:
"Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...you are the sons of them that killed the prophets. Fill up then the measure of your fathers. You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell? Therefore behold I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you will put to death and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: That upon you may come all the just blood that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar. Amen I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not? Behold, you house shall be left to you, desolate" (Matt 23:29,33-38)

Again the Messiah predicted the imminent destruction of the rebellious sons:
When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." (Luke 19:41-44)

As a testimony to God's providential care for his faithful remnant, the obedient sons of Abraham were miraculously spared and protected while the wicked sons were judged and destroyed from among the people. Addresing his beloved apostles and followers, Jesus said:
"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles" (Luke 21:20-22).

Once the faithful nation of God's elect were miraculously protected, the doom predicted for wicked brothers would commence. As Jesus forewarned:
"When therefore the Lord therefore of the vineyard comes, what will he do unto those vine-growers? They said unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will rent out his vineyard unto other vine-growers, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus said unto them, Did you never read in the scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, this became the chief corner stone: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?' Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits of it. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Mt 21:40-45)

And so true Israel---the sons of Abraham who followed the Messiah, as manifested by Providence and by history---was again preserved during a time of national apostasy and tribulation. As was the case in former times with Moses, Elijah, and Isaiah, countless apostates were cut off from among the people. But God's elect Israel, the faithful remnant, triumphed and continued on, spreading the good news of the Kingdom of God to the entire world, in and through the Jewish Church.

Israel survived *exclusively* in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. The church always was the covenanted Israel, the church continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).

Didn't read it through, but perused and I generally agree, except for the church becoming Israel. That's silly, but generally I agree with the first part of how Israel formed and how Jews are defined. I think that is still true today. But if you now define Jew as Christian, you have some serious problems with the post above #493.
 
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ShineyDays2

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God has never gone by genetics nor a whole country/state. It has always been "a remnant by faith." Of that remnant of the OT, there was always a mixture of Jews and Gentiles.....Gentiles meaning any individual from any country of any sex that wished to agree to accept the Jewish beliefs of a coming Messiah. It is the same today except that it is now the "Christian" faith one must join.
 
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parousia70

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Didn't read it through, but perused and I generally agree, except for the church becoming Israel.

Becoming Israel?

Was this Church Israel, or not?

Acts 7:38-40
38 This is he that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel that spake to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received living oracles to give unto us: 39 to whom our fathers would not be obedient, but thrust him from them, and turned back in their hearts unto Egypt, 40 saying unto Aaron, Make us gods that shall go before us: for as for this Moses, who led us forth out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him.

At what point do you say these 3000 people of the CHURCH, STOPPED being Israel:

Acts 2:41
Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

But if you now define Jew as Christian, you have some serious problems with the post above #493.

Why?
Where does the Bible teach that ANY of those descriptions of rebellious Jews apply to anyone after 70AD?
 
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jgr

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Paul tells us exactly who a true Jew is: A person who is circumcised of the heart; spiritually, not literally. Romans 2:29

Okay, great. Jews, according to you, are those circumcised of the heart, i.e. believers.

You seem to have omitted an essential adjective.

That adjective is "true".

None of the Jews you've cited qualified as "true".
 
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Calminian

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You seem to have omitted an essential adjective.

That adjective is "true".

None of the Jews you've cited qualified as "true".

But they are still Jews outwardly according to Luke and Paul and all the other NT writers. That's the word he used. That's the label he gave them. Thus, as far as prophecy goes, there is no reason exclude the existence of an unbelieving Israel as you have done. You've defined outward Jew out of existence. You've gone much further than Paul and Luke and the rest of the NT writers who believed outward Jews still existed even as unbelievers.

Understanding that we can now discern Paul's statement.

Rom. 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;​

A partially blind Israel makes no sense in replacement theology. But if you grant the existence of outward Jews (some unbelieving), you can finally understand this passage.
 
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parousia70

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But they are still Jews outwardly according to Luke and Paul and all the other NT writers. That's the word he used. That's the label he gave them. Thus, as far as prophecy goes, there is no reason exclude the existence of an unbelieving Israel as you have done. You've defined outward Jew out of existence. You've gone much further than Paul and Luke and the rest of the NT writers who believed outward Jews still existed even as unbelievers.


So you don't believe this scripture means what it says then?:

Acts 3:22-23
2 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’

You believe that was an empty threat?
You believe that failed to come to pass as written?
You believe that there were Jews who refused to listen to and follow Jesus who were NOT utterly destroyed from among the People?
 
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parousia70

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there is no reason exclude the existence of an unbelieving Israel as you have done.

What is your reason for excluding believing Jews from "Israel"?

When do the Jewish Followers of Christ stop being Israel?
 
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