No such thing as " believing " for salvation .

wonderkins

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I just watched Chinese warrior movie. They used a phrase. Death by a thousand cuts. That's what this thread reminds me of. Why not just post what you're trying to say in one post? My goodness, stop trying to titillate everybody.

Everyone here can look in strongs and vines just as easily as you can. But quoting either of those does not mean you know Greek.

Also there's this quote I heard once that just stuck with me:

"whatever is true is not new, and whatever is new is not true"

If you've come up with something new in the Bible, it's probably wrong.
 
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RaymondG

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We're making judgements on what he's posted so far.

Which is what he invited by posting just the first bite.
Maybe he was weeding out those in shame and folly....and will reveal the rest to those who are ready?

"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him."
 
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Radagast

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Maybe he was weeding out those in shame and folly....and will reveal the rest to those who are ready?

"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him."

Thanks for the insult, but we were perfectly justified in commenting on his first point.
 
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Pneuma3

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Thanks for the insult, but we were perfectly justified in commenting on his first point.

Yes you are justified in commenting as he even asked if people agreed so far. But some have gone beyond that and postulated that he is going to talk about salvation being of our works.

I just think we should here him out before jumping to conclusions on what he has been trying to share.
 
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1stcenturylady

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We can never be justified by our own doing. We are believing what has been done for us. That which we could NEVER do for ourselves. So yes, justification is received by faith alone. It's a gift, we can't buy it, or earn it.

That is true at the beginning when converted, but that rigidity of doctrine is what I do not agree with, as it became lop-sided in the Reformation into dead faith. "Faith without works is dead." The following two verses seem to contradict one another, but the truth lies in the complexity of faith - it is perfected by works. You can't just choose which verse to believe. We have to dig a little deeper and believe them both. The lop-sidedness of justification by faith alone is what this thread is discussing.

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Here is what happens when you only believe one of the verses (Romans 4).

Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.

Do you believe this quote from the Reformation is truth, or falsehood? Is it based on just the first verse, or the second also? Does it produce faith that is alive in Christ, or dead in sin.
 
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1stcenturylady

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I just watched Chinese warrior movie. They used a phrase. Death by a thousand cuts. That's what this thread reminds me of. Why not just post what you're trying to say in one post? My goodness, stop trying to titillate everybody.

Everyone here can look in strongs and vines just as easily as you can. But quoting either of those does not mean you know Greek.

Also there's this quote I heard once that just stuck with me:

"whatever is true is not new, and whatever is new is not true"

If you've come up with something new in the Bible, it's probably wrong.

Just because an error has been around for a long time and is now old, doesn't make it true. Some of what is "new" is merely undoing error and going back to the original teaching of the apostles which is really old, but got twisted. That is what is being attempted in this thread.
 
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NW82

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Οὕτως - Thus, γὰρ - for, ἠγάπησεν - loved, ὁ -, Θεὸς - God, τὸν - the, κόσμον - world, ὥστε - that,
τὸν - the, Υἱὸν - Son, τὸν - the, μονογενῆ - only begotten, ἔδωκεν - He gave, ἵνα - so that, πᾶς - everyone, ὁ - , πιστεύων - believing, εἰς - in, αὐτὸν - Him, μὴ - not, ἀπόληται - should perish, ἀλλ - but, ἔχῃ - should have, ζωὴν - life, αἰώνιον - eternal.

John 3:16, so the OP is directly contradicting Christ. Maybe not the best thing to do?
 
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Pneuma3

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That is true at the beginning when converted, but that rigidity of doctrine is what I do not agree with, as it became lop-sided in the Reformation into dead faith. "Faith without works is dead." The following two verses seem to contradict one another, but the truth lies in the complexity of faith - it is perfected by works. You can't just choose which verse to believe. We have to dig a little deeper and believe them both. The lop-sidedness of justification by faith alone is what this thread is discussing.

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Here is what happens when you only believe one of the verses (Romans 4).

Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.

Do you believe this quote from the Reformation is truth, or falsehood? Is it based on just the first verse, or the second also? Does it produce faith that is alive in Christ, or dead in sin.

Seems we might be on the same page here.

James and Paul


James 1:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

These Two scriptures were used on another board to show that James and Paul did not agree with one another. Here was my reply, hope it may be helpful to others that see a contradiction between James and Paul.

Do these scriptures conflict with one another? Or are they speaking of two aspects of faith.

First it should be pointed out that Paul in Romans 4 is speaking of faith in the birth of Isaac (this is seen in verses 18-22) and James is speaking of the sacrifice of Isaac.

Two different aspects of faith.

Abraham did nothing but believe in Isaacs birth, but once Isaac/Christ is birthed in us that birth produces works of faith. It is these works of faith James is speaking of and this can be seen in verse 22 “Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” /complete

If Abraham never offered up Isaac (which is works) then his faith would never have come to completion.

We can see these same works of faith also mentioned by both Jesus and Paul.

John 8:39
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.( Are they works of faith or works of the law)
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works,(these would be works of the law) least any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (works of faith)

2 Thessalonians 1:11
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Hebrews 11:7
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark (works) to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Now think on this; if Noah had not built the boat (which was a work of faith, the same works of faith James is speaking on) then he and his house would have drowned with the rest of mankind.

Adds another layer to “faith without works is dead” don’t it.

The scriptures under discussion.

James 2:17-26
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Romans 4:1-25
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Here's me thinking we were talking about pistachio nuts!!
There's a few nuts on this thread, but they are not pistachio ones! And I am one of them because I took the blue pill instead of the red one! :)
 
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1stcenturylady

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Seems we might be on the same page here.

James and Paul


James 1:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

These Two scriptures were used on another board to show that James and Paul did not agree with one another. Here was my reply, hope it may be helpful to others that see a contradiction between James and Paul.

Do these scriptures conflict with one another? Or are they speaking of two aspects of faith.

First it should be pointed out that Paul in Romans 4 is speaking of faith in the birth of Isaac (this is seen in verses 18-22) and James is speaking of the sacrifice of Isaac.

Two different aspects of faith.

Abraham did nothing but believe in Isaacs birth, but once Isaac/Christ is birthed in us that birth produces works of faith. It is these works of faith James is speaking of and this can be seen in verse 22 “Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” /complete

If Abraham never offered up Isaac (which is works) then his faith would never have come to completion.

We can see these same works of faith also mentioned by both Jesus and Paul.

John 8:39
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.( Are they works of faith or works of the law)
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works,(these would be works of the law) least any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (works of faith)

2 Thessalonians 1:11
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Hebrews 11:7
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark (works) to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Now think on this; if Noah had not built the boat (which was a work of faith, the same works of faith James is speaking on) then he and his house would have drowned with the rest of mankind.

Adds another layer to “faith without works is dead” don’t it.

The scriptures under discussion.

James 2:17-26
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Romans 4:1-25
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Judaizers at the time were preaching that the Gentiles must also do the works of the Mosaic law such as outward things like circumcision, holy days, and clean meats. Paul wants to pull his hair out when he hears the Galatians are heeding their works of the law and wonders if he has preached to them in vain.
 
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There's a few nuts on this thread, but they are not pistachio ones! And I am one of them because I took the blue pill instead of the red one! :)
Do not worry brother Oscar. The red ones are the placebos
 
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Do not worry brother Oscar. The red ones are the placebos
The picture on the left is my cat looking at me with a knowing look on her face after I have taken the blue pill!
 
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That is true at the beginning when converted, but that rigidity of doctrine is what I do not agree with, as it became lop-sided in the Reformation into dead faith. "Faith without works is dead." The following two verses seem to contradict one another, but the truth lies in the complexity of faith - it is perfected by works. You can't just choose which verse to believe. We have to dig a little deeper and believe them both. The lop-sidedness of justification by faith alone is what this thread is discussing.

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Here is what happens when you only believe one of the verses (Romans 4).

Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.

Do you believe this quote from the Reformation is truth, or falsehood? Is it based on just the first verse, or the second also? Does it produce faith that is alive in Christ, or dead in sin.
I would take your last sentence in the Reformation quote as being what we should be doing after salvation.
 
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