Predestination vs Free Will

Bobber said:

You need to define the following. In your saying our nature is controlling our will are you saying the mental state of the one doesn't desire the opposite? Multitudes are bound to nicotine but in their hearts, in their minds and will they want freedom. They may cave in to their nicotine but you can't say their will didn't have the wanting to be free.

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Romans 8:7 speaks to this.

Neostarwcc said:

What are your opinions on predestination? Is it Biblical that God chose every single person who would come to faith in Jesus? Or do we all have freewill and every single person alive has the opportunity to find Christ? Needless to say, there are verses in the bible that support both views. So... idk which one to go with... what do you think?

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God can predestine us for any purpose He may chose but He does not predestine our salvation.

Chris V++ said:

This 'free will / self will' distinction all seems like a game of semantics. So if I choose bacon for breakfast am I exercising my free will or my self will? Maybe if being told we don't have free it should be clarified immediately like you did above with the 'we are not free to sin' caveat. We can still choose to sin, which is exercising our 'self 'will, but are not granted freedom to sin, meaning we haven't a 'free will.' Or do you believe we don't willfully choose to sin either, and that sin is just a consequence of our predisposition and our God established circumstances and environment that informs our choices?

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Yes many intellectuals here are playing with semantics and avoiding plain biblical truth while indulging in their philosophy.

misput said:

God can predestine us for any purpose He may chose but He does not predestine our salvation.

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Yes @misput that is a very profound truth, you just said, it is what I wrote or impliy in my book "Understanding Prayer, Faith and God's will'

ICONO'CLAST said:

As Jesus said it was finished as he was on the cross....at that moment, how did he draw all men in South America? or Russia, or China, or North America.
Explain how you understood this to happen....people in those countries died the very next day! How were they drawn?

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Read Romans 1. Paul maintains that there has always been ample evidence of God's presence, his glory and His power in creation and "in the heavens." But they did not acknowledge God for who He is, nor did they give thanks." He says nobody has any excuse.

However, God has always reached out to people, individually and collectively. (And that is part of Paul's argument - The heavens declare the glory of God ...He has already shown Himself in various ways. The numerous religions of ancient South America, Russia, China, North America, to say nothing of Africa and Europe, the Middle East, is evidence of humankind's awareness of there being something "more." But they created images and concepts of God that were merely extensions of themselves - their minds having become futile they cheapened the reality of god to become images of animals and humans. And today we have gone farther, either to declare him "dead," non-existent, or to dream up another religion of humanism.)

At the same time, I'm curious to know where the "doctrine" of free will comes from.

It is evident that Adam and Eve were presented with a prohibition, and immediately there was an option to disobey. At that moment they had "free will." But in making their wrong decision, they fell under the power and morality of DEATH, becoming "slaves to sin." So I'm wondering if they didn't lose true "free will" at that time. For many, I'm sure there is an almost unconscious assumption that "free will" is being able to decide for yourself, even to the extent of initiating a behaviour or change thereof. The Scriptures seem to me to be very clear in stating categorically that in terms of our salvation it is all and always at the initiative of God, as Paul puts it, so no one can boast in front of God that it is his/her doing. No one seeks God, said the Psalmist, no not one; and Jesus said "No one comes to me, unless the Father draws Him." The most we can "do" is surrender to his prodding, to his giving, to his "drawing." And surrender is a "act of passivity." In one sense it is an act of giving up your own will, surrending to His. Perhaps the only 'free will' we have as spiritually DEAD sinners, enemies of God, is to give up what we think is our will, and simply 'give up.' To say "I give up, I can't do it; please take over. I surrender."

Neostarwcc said:

What are your opinions on predestination? Is it Biblical that God chose every single person who would come to faith in Jesus? Or do we all have freewill and every single person alive has the opportunity to find Christ? Needless to say, there are verses in the bible that support both views. So... idk which one to go with... what do you think?

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While it must be taken in context 'predestination' is a New Testament term. These are the verses that use that term:
It's virtually synonymous with being 'ordained' or 'foreknown'. Whatever it is, it comes from the mind of God. "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please." (Isaiah 46:10). Much is included in the foreknowledge and predestination of God in Christ:

Neostarwcc said:

Not to mention there is plenty of places in the Bible that say that God chose us before the foundation of the world. We didn't choose God but God chose us. I think freewill is just something somebody made up to make salvation sound more fair than it really is.

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If you read Romans 6 we do choose according to Who or who we serve.

Neostarwcc said:

I think freewill is just something somebody made up to make salvation sound more fair than it really is.

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I just don't see how this can be reconciled with the John 3:16 verse that is showing on your signature banner. Or should it have said, 'For God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son, that, relatively speaking, a handful of people who He decided upon before the beginning of time will believe in Him but not of their own free will but because He will compel them to believe, and those blessed few shall not perish but have eternal life. As for the rest, well, some may believe, but that won't be enough, but be fruitful and multiply anyway, since you'll never know. '

roman2819 said:

Yes @misput that is a very profound truth, you just said, it is what I wrote or impliy in my book "Understanding Prayer, Faith and God's will'

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Yes, it is difficult to understand but when we do it seems simple, like many other things in life.

mark kennedy said:

Ephesians 2:10 says that "we are created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Predestination)

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Statements like this are collective, not referring to individual salvation.

Monna said:

Read Romans 1. Paul maintains that there has always been ample evidence of God's presence, his glory and His power in creation and "in the heavens." But they did not acknowledge God for who He is, nor did they give thanks." He says nobody has any excuse.

However, God has always reached out to people, individually and collectively. (And that is part of Paul's argument - The heavens declare the glory of God ...He has already shown Himself in various ways. The numerous religions of ancient South America, Russia, China, North America, to say nothing of Africa and Europe, the Middle East, is evidence of humankind's awareness of there being something "more." But they created images and concepts of God that were merely extensions of themselves - their minds having become futile they cheapened the reality of god to become images of animals and humans. And today we have gone farther, either to declare him "dead," non-existent, or to dream up another religion of humanism.)

At the same time, I'm curious to know where the "doctrine" of free will comes from.

It is evident that Adam and Eve were presented with a prohibition, and immediately there was an option to disobey. At that moment they had "free will." But in making their wrong decision, they fell under the power and morality of DEATH, becoming "slaves to sin." So I'm wondering if they didn't lose true "free will" at that time. For many, I'm sure there is an almost unconscious assumption that "free will" is being able to decide for yourself, even to the extent of initiating a behaviour or change thereof. The Scriptures seem to me to be very clear in stating categorically that in terms of our salvation it is all and always at the initiative of God, as Paul puts it, so no one can boast in front of God that it is his/her doing. No one seeks God, said the Psalmist, no not one; and Jesus said "No one comes to me, unless the Father draws Him." The most we can "do" is surrender to his prodding, to his giving, to his "drawing." And surrender is a "act of passivity." In one sense it is an act of giving up your own will, surrending to His. Perhaps the only 'free will' we have as spiritually DEAD sinners, enemies of God, is to give up what we think is our will, and simply 'give up.' To say "I give up, I can't do it; please take over. I surrender."

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Romans 1 speaks of a time when men had a knowledge of God and turned from it.....God has revealed Himself in nature. That is not enough to save sinners who are bound in sin.
I do not do none biblical philosophy, but 5 times Lucifer said, I will ascend, I will be above God,etc...that rebellion is similar to unsaved persons seeking to be out from under God's control.
Isa14:12-15

Neostarwcc said:

That's true. But the saved people that John 3:16 talks about were already chosen by God. See Ephesians 1:4.

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'For he chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love'

Aren't the operative words in Ep 1:4 'in Him" His plan for us was set before the creation of the world, that 'in Him' we could be holy and blameless in his sight.
Ephesians 1:5
'having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will'

Couldn't this mean God foreordained a plan for us to be adopted thru Jesus Christ provided we do the will of the Father and repent. Why does the 'whosoever' in John 3:16 have to be a reference to an elect few? When God said He so loved 'the World' did He mean 'the World' or didn't He?

ICONO'CLAST said:

The idea of free will is a false carnal philosophical idea. Our will is bound by our nature.

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Libertarian free will is a false carnal philosophical idea, and it is biblical and true our will is bound by our nature. Where there is freedom and choices is in the nature of a will. In other words sinners having a sinful nature do freely sin according to the nature of a sinful will. It is impossible for the sinful will to go against the nature of the sinful will, to make a righteous choice pleasing to God. The Apostle Paul in Scripture tells us, that which is not of faith is sin. Obviously Paul is making a distinction between faith in Christ and the faith of the ungodly, the faith of the pagans and greek philosophers etc. Faith in Christ is righteous and living where faith in false gods is sinful and dead. What I wanted to emphasize here though is the freedom God gives of choices within the nature of a will, while expressing agreement with your statement.

Apologetic_Warrior said:

Libertarian free will is a false carnal philosophical idea, and it is biblical and true our will is bound by our nature. Where there is freedom and choices is in the nature of a will. In other words sinners having a sinful nature do freely sin according to the nature of a sinful will. It is impossible for the sinful will to go against the nature of the sinful will, to make a righteous choice pleasing to God. The Apostle Paul in Scripture tells us, that which is not of faith is sin. Obviously Paul is making a distinction between faith in Christ and the faith of the ungodly, the faith of the pagans and greek philosophers etc. Faith in Christ is righteous and living where faith in false gods is sinful and dead. What I wanted to emphasize here though is the freedom God gives of choices within the nature of a will, while expressing agreement with your statement.

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Sam Waldron does something similar as an accommodation to those who struggle with it. Thanks for your input brother.

misput said:

Statements like this are collective, not referring to individual salvation.

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"WE" is what? A group of individuals, a way of addressing more than I. The Apostle did not write a letter to himself.

Neostarwcc said:

What are your opinions on predestination? Is it Biblical that God chose every single person who would come to faith in Jesus? Or do we all have freewill and every single person alive has the opportunity to find Christ? Needless to say, there are verses in the bible that support both views. So... idk which one to go with... what do you think?

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Bible tells eternal life is for righteous. I believe all people have opportunity to be or to become righteous.


For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16


These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

I think predetermined and free will are possible at the same time. God knows all people so well that He knows what they will freely choose and therefore, because He knows all the situations, He knows what will happen. So, by setting everything to move, everything is already predetermined, set to move to certain direction. But still, we make our own choices on the way by our free will.