What is the Scriptural Basis for Cessationism?

GoldenKingGaze said:

How does God heal in your thoughts? By a word from his throne, or a touch of his Spirit...?

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Any means that He chooses to do the healing, by medicine, scalpel, diet, etc.!

YeshuaFan said:

None of them can be confirmed though as actual encounters with the same Jesus that Paul saw!

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Paul had to be confirmed by Peter and those commissioned by Jesus in the flesh, we can now only confirm things by scripture, testing visions, and prophecies... by the word.

YeshuaFan said:

Any means that He chooses to do the healing, by medicine, scalpel, diet, etc.!

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The scalpel is man's method. Angels carry God's presence and power, such as healing. Angels like Raphael.

GoldenKingGaze said:

The scalpel is man's method. Angels carry God's presence and power, such as healing. Angels like Raphael.

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Who is not mentioned in the Bible even!

YeshuaFan said:

Who is not mentioned in the Bible even!

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All the holy angels have God's presence in them.

Raphael is mentioned in Tobit. A Jewish historical book written before Christ birth, about times in exile. This was part of the first canon. Luther rejected it.

tdidymas said:

I completely agree.
TD

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And so do I!

GoldenKingGaze said:

There is word stiving over the meaning of "perfect is come", from 1 Corinthians 13, regarding the Greek word "teleios".

It cannot be a book. It cannot be that everyone had one of the books and could read it. What should be included in the Bible is a matter of question. The Bible under scrutiny by Lutheran scholars for the sake of Muslim questions, has errors. Just a few. And there were three letters written to the Corinthians, and surely many oral preachings with important knowledge in them, that are not in the letters and are lost in time.

So you like the idea that from Christ via the apostles came something perfect. Why not agree something perfect will come from Christ when he returns?

If Paul in this chapter refers to his own perception of Christ light and form as in a mirror dimly, then like teacher to student, there is at best us seeing in a mirror dimly. Unless we see the Christ himself, which happens when we die, or Christ returns. "Then I will fully know as I myself am known." Paul.

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Do you actually think that Jesus Christ would be called “that which is perfect?”
Is there any other Scriptures where Paul calls Jesus "that which is perfect"?????

That right there should tell us something.

Now instead of accepting the commentaries of men and our denominational doctrines, why not take another look at the verse itself whose phrase is in question: …………..
Verse #10......“But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away”.

Notice that this verse says nothing about us going anywhere, so that fact alone rules out HEAVEN as the perfect thing.

However, it does teach that something is coming to us. Something coming to us and us going somewhere are two completely different situations.

It is then assumed by some that 1 Corinthians 13:10—-------
“when that which is perfect is come”—is descriptive of us going to heaven and seeing Jesus for who He really is, when we no longer wonder what He looks like but when we actually see Him “face to face.” Yet, beloved, a hymnal is not our authority; it is not inspired of God.

Now as I have stated before, the phrase “when that which is perfect is come” has nothing to do with us dying and going to heaven. It is talking about something coming to us, not us going to a place.

The real reason why people take the view of us dying going to heaven or Jesus coming the 2nd time in reference to 1 Corinthians 13:10 is so that the spirituals gifts—especially the gift of tongues—can be viewed as still operating (for, it is said, the spiritual gifts will not cease until we go to heaven).

This is a very faulty position to take, for there is nothing in 1 Corinthians chapter 13 about dying and going to heaven or Jesus coming the 2nd time.

On the authority of the Scriptures, we must reject this view.

“When that which is perfect is come” is a reference to when partial knowledge and partial prophesying are done away. Verses 9 and 10 again:...…..
“[9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
[10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”

This is talking about the completion of the Bible’s canon of books, which was settled in God’s mind in the first century A.D

It is quite clear that this phrase is referring to an inanimate object, not a person.

The phrase “that which is perfect is come” of 1 Corinthians 10:13 can not refer to Jesus Christ or His return.

But that is just me reading the Bible.

GoldenKingGaze said:

All the holy angels have God's presence in them.

Raphael is mentioned in Tobit. A Jewish historical book written before Christ birth, about times in exile. This was part of the first canon. Luther rejected it.

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Raphael is NOT AN angel found in the Bible. His name is found in the Apocrypha (Enoch)which is NOT Biblical in any way.

Luther rejected it as should you because it is "Occultic".

GoldenKingGaze said:

How does God heal in your thoughts? By a word from his throne, or a touch of his Spirit...?

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The problem with by a word from His throne is simply...…..HOW would you know that is where it came from????

Satan and his demons can mask themselves as angels when in fact they are demons.

YeshuaFan said:

Jesus created all things that were evr created, and he is God, eternal!

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May I say to you that you are demonstrating excellent Bible knowledge to help those in need.

GoldenKingGaze said:

There is word stiving over the meaning of "perfect is come", from 1 Corinthians 13, regarding the Greek word "teleios".

It cannot be a book. It cannot be that everyone had one of the books and could read it. What should be included in the Bible is a matter of question. The Bible under scrutiny by Lutheran scholars for the sake of Muslim questions, has errors. Just a few. And there were three letters written to the Corinthians, and surely many oral preachings with important knowledge in them, that are not in the letters and are lost in time.

So you like the idea that from Christ via the apostles came something perfect. Why not agree something perfect will come from Christ when he returns?

If Paul in this chapter refers to his own perception of Christ light and form as in a mirror dimly, then like teacher to student, there is at best us seeing in a mirror dimly. Unless we see the Christ himself, which happens when we die, or Christ returns. "Then I will fully know as I myself am known." Paul.

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The only sound view—in light of context, in light of grammar, in light of Scripture—is that 1 Corinthians 13:10 is referring to the completed canon of Scripture of the first century A.D. There are no spiritual gifts
operating today because we have the completed 66-book Holy Bible. If we are to people of faith, we must throw away our doctrinally-deficient hymns, we must discard our faulty theological systems, and we must break away from our pre-conceived ideas. We are to embrace the simple truths of the English Bible. In the end, God’s Word—not theological systems, not Bible commentaries, not preachers or teachers—alone will matter.

Major1 said:

Do you actually think that Jesus Christ would be called “that which is perfect?”
Is there any other Scriptures where Paul calls Jesus "that which is perfect"?????

That right there should tell us something.

Now instead of accepting the commentaries of men and our denominational doctrines, why not take another look at the verse itself whose phrase is in question: …………..
Verse #10......“But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away”.

Notice that this verse says nothing about us going anywhere, so that fact alone rules out HEAVEN as the perfect thing.

However, it does teach that something is coming to us. Something coming to us and us going somewhere are two completely different situations.

It is then assumed by some that 1 Corinthians 13:10—-------
“when that which is perfect is come”—is descriptive of us going to heaven and seeing Jesus for who He really is, when we no longer wonder what He looks like but when we actually see Him “face to face.” Yet, beloved, a hymnal is not our authority; it is not inspired of God.

Now as I have stated before, the phrase “when that which is perfect is come” has nothing to do with us dying and going to heaven. It is talking about something coming to us, not us going to a place.

The real reason why people take the view of us dying going to heaven or Jesus coming the 2nd time in reference to 1 Corinthians 13:10 is so that the spirituals gifts—especially the gift of tongues—can be viewed as still operating (for, it is said, the spiritual gifts will not cease until we go to heaven).

This is a very faulty position to take, for there is nothing in 1 Corinthians chapter 13 about dying and going to heaven or Jesus coming the 2nd time.

On the authority of the Scriptures, we must reject this view.

“When that which is perfect is come” is a reference to when partial knowledge and partial prophesying are done away. Verses 9 and 10 again:...…..
“[9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
[10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”

This is talking about the completion of the Bible’s canon of books, which was settled in God’s mind in the first century A.D

It is quite clear that this phrase is referring to an inanimate object, not a person.

The phrase “that which is perfect is come” of 1 Corinthians 10:13 can not refer to Jesus Christ or His return.

But that is just me reading the Bible.

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That which is perfect as I said several times is the light or message of Christ that comes from him when he returns. Not Christ himself. I quoted the passage about the son of man returning and the lighting like lightning, from east to west.

I mentioned from Paul's context, the mirror, being dim, meaning the Bible being dim and not perfect. And further in this context, Paul said he will know or we will know, as fully as he is known. He is not talking about going to Heaven I know, but only pointed out that this full knowledge cannot come from the Bible, but from being in Heaven, which most of us experience instead of the second coming, or by the second coming, when from Christ, a thing comes that is a greater revelation than the Bible, or what Paul had then, and greater than the gift of prophecy.

You also ignore that what is in God's mind is not the issue, but that we hear it is. And so the second century Christians, not able to read and no mass publishing meant that for them and others like them, including all pagans, there was need for spiritual gifts. And it is God's great passion and purpose for them to believe in Jesus Christ. So omitting gifts and ministers acting as apostles means no converts. One can see snail pace conversion outside Europe and conversion by the sword within. God is grieved!

The old Church, the RCC, is continuist. And cessationism, is a strange new doctrine.

Major1 said:

Good points all.

However I did not say and do not believe that the Bible is a thing of the past. In fact my thoughts and teaching on this subject IS ROOTED in what the Bible tells us and NOT what we want to believe.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10...….
"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears."

The PERFECT in the KJV is correctly translated in the ESV as COMPLETNESS/MATURITY.

Jesus was the God-MAN, not a "thing". The Greek grammar demands that the "Perfect be a THING" and the only thing that is perfect is the Bible.

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Neuter Pneuma and Neuter Pronouns Mean Not a Person: Bad Arguments against the Personhood of the Holy Spirit #1

Major1 said:

NO sir. That is not what I said.

"Prophesying" is the ability to TEACH the Word of God and not to FORTELL the Word of God.
Again, if we read the Scriptures we see that God said those gifts would end. I only believe what God actually said, NOT what I want Him to have said.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10...….
"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears."

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You love to play with God's word don't you, a little twist here and slight bending there...make it fit your doctrine.

Prophesying beside being predictive is preaching, even if you insist it is teaching, brother has teaching ceased in the church? is knowledge at all perfect or even complete?

Or do we still see as through a glass darkly?

Paul goes on to say "when I was a child I thought as a child, I spake as a child, I reasoned as a child, when I became a man I gave up childish ways" oh we love to beat the Pentecostals with that one don't we.

Tell me when the Apostle Paul "spake in tongues more than ye all" was he behaving childishly?

"Now I know in part" says Paul "then I shall understand fully" are you incredibly claiming to understand more or better than Paul did? whereas he saw as through a glass darkly, you say we see clearly?

How come when what you claim to be that perfect came, that is to say the canon of scripture, it exhorted us to earnestly covet the gifts, especially that we may prophesy, which prophesying you claim the canon superceded.

How come this perfect you claim was followed by more than a 1,000 years of utter darkness in the church with the rise of the RCC?

tdidymas said:

I agree with you on this, and I do believe that miracles happen today, although not near as prolific as it was in the days of the early church (the 1st Century). But the writer of Hebrews excludes himself in the working of signs and wonders which he mentioned in Heb. 2:4, and he does not identify himself as one of the apostles.

The issue is not whether or not miracles happen today. The issue is about whether or not any Christian today HAS one of those gifts of the Spirit mentioned in 1 Cor. 12. One workaround for the lack of evidence is the theory going around that those gifts were temporary bestowments given to individuals at a particular meeting. IOW, the gift was given only for the purpose of that meeting, and after that meeting those individuals no longer had that gift. However, I can't see this as a valid theory, the way that I read the scripture. If this was the case, Paul would not have said "I speak in tongues more than you all." Paul HAD the gift of tongues, and he used it at his own discretion, of course according to God's will.

In my mind, the crux of the issue surrounds modern day Pentecostalism, and whether or not the "tongues" of today is the same kind of "tongues" mentioned in 1 Cor. The question at hand is, does modern day Pentecostalism actually practice the authentic gifts of the Spirit, or is the movement merely playing with religious activity made to look like it? Does the movement have a miraculous spiritual source, or is it a fleshly source?

I do not want an answer to these questions, as they are rhetorical by nature. I am merely stating what I believe to be the core of the issue, and the essence of the debate on cessationism. It does not mean that a cessationist believes that Pentecostalism is evil or of the devil. Neither does it mean that a Pentecostal who exhibits good fruit in their life authenticates the movement's claim.
TD

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Hi

It is a big mistake to look at the church and assume that this is what the church should be. If you had walked into a church in the 14th century you would feel yourself I an alien world, almost nothing was what the church is meant to be.

It is a modern mistake also to think that the western church is still in the vanguard of what God is doing in the world today, we are actually in the backwaters.

If God does a thing once and it is beyond question God then the case is proved. If it can be shown that in one instance the Holy Spirit has been poured out in apostolic power today then the doctrine is proved.

Billy Evmur said:

You love to play with God's word don't you, a little twist here and slight bending there...make it fit your doctrine.

Prophesying beside being predictive is preaching, even if you insist it is teaching, brother has teaching ceased in the church? is knowledge at all perfect or even complete?

Or do we still see as through a glass darkly?

Paul goes on to say "when I was a child I thought as a child, I spake as a child, I reasoned as a child, when I became a man I gave up childish ways" oh we love to beat the Pentecostals with that one don't we.

Tell me when the Apostle Paul "spake in tongues more than ye all" was he behaving childishly?

"Now I know in part" says Paul "then I shall understand fully" are you incredibly claiming to understand more or better than Paul did? whereas he saw as through a glass darkly, you say we see clearly?

How come when what you claim to be that perfect came, that is to say the canon of scripture, it exhorted us to earnestly covet the gifts, especially that we may prophesy, which prophesying you claim the canon superceded.

How come this perfect you claim was followed by more than a 1,000 years of utter darkness in the church with the rise of the RCC?

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No my friend, you are incorrect---again.

I love to correct do exegesis of the Word of God WITHOUT any twisting and bending.

The ONLY reason YOU said that is because you do not agree with my understanding and YOU want to continue in speaking in tongues. Please do so!!!!!!!!!
However, you can not do so and pretend that it is what the Scriptures say.

1 Corinthians 14:3 ACTUALLY says...………...
"....he that prophesies speaks to men for edification, exhortation, and comfort."

As YOU have personally done just several times on this site by bragging about what you think you have as a gift.

Now when you read the Scriptures posted from 1 Corinthians 14, please notice that NO mention of "foretelling the future' is even mentioned here.

YES - it is true that the prophets of Old Test. economy did in fact foretell future events by inspiration of the Holy Spirit - the MAJORITY of their ministry consisted of preaching and teaching the Word of God.

If one takes the time to examine the Word of God - we can easily discover this to be true. MOST of the messages delivered to the people by the Old Testament Prophets were NOT 'predictions of the future" - but rather messages of:
• Edification: (building up of the people by way instruction in righteousness)
• Exhortation: (Warnings and Admonishment to Obey the Lord)
• Comfort: (Encouragement to be strong and courageous and to Trust in the Lord)

Most people however believe that the job of the prophet is to "foretell the future" - yet a simple study of the old Testament prophets will show that to be only a small portion of their ministry. Yet as we see in 1 Corinthians 14:3 - prophesy today consists primarily of "speaking to men for edification, exhortation, and comfort."

May I also say to you that the Holy Spirit will NEVER speak anything that is contrary to the Word of God as already revealed in the Scriptures.

Now why is there so much confusion on such a simple thing????
The reason why there is so much confusion and error about this is because too many have run off spouting nonsense out of their heads - instead of by inspiration of the Holy Ghost!

This has led to false doctrines, divisions in the church, arguments, and strife - not to mention false 'predictions' of Christ's return, erroneous 'words from God' as to what the 'so-called' prophet tells a person to do - etc! All because instead of being moved by the Holy Ghost - they blabber out of their heads!

Hazelelponi said:

Neuter Pneuma and Neuter Pronouns Mean Not a Person: Bad Arguments against the Personhood of the Holy Spirit #1

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I am not sure what you are trying to say but I am NOT an anti-Trinitarian.

The Holy Spirit is the 3rd PERSON of the Trinity and HE is just as much God as is the Father and the Son.

GoldenKingGaze said:

That which is perfect as I said several times is the light or message of Christ that comes from him when he returns. Not Christ himself. I quoted the passage about the son of man returning and the lighting like lightning, from east to west.

I mentioned from Paul's context, the mirror, being dim, meaning the Bible being dim and not perfect. And further in this context, Paul said he will know or we will know, as fully as he is known. He is not talking about going to Heaven I know, but only pointed out that this full knowledge cannot come from the Bible, but from being in Heaven, which most of us experience instead of the second coming, or by the second coming, when from Christ, a thing comes that is a greater revelation than the Bible, or what Paul had then, and greater than the gift of prophecy.

You also ignore that what is in God's mind is not the issue, but that we hear it is. And so the second century Christians, not able to read and no mass publishing meant that for them and others like them, including all pagans, there was need for spiritual gifts. And it is God's great passion and purpose for them to believe in Jesus Christ. So omitting gifts and ministers acting as apostles means no converts. One can see snail pace conversion outside Europe and conversion by the sword within. God is grieved!

The old Church, the RCC, is continuist. And cessationism, is a strange new doctrine.

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Again, with all due respect, I can not agree with you.

The verse which refer to Christ 2nd Coming as like lightning and that He will be seen from east to west is out of CONTEXT and has nothing to do with "Continueism/Cessationism."

I appreciate your efforts to try and explain your wishes but my dear friend, what is IS and not what we want it to be. As for Paul's reference to seeing darkly now and lighter in the future is again taken out of CONTEXT and misapplied....IMO.

You are correct in that we can not see the glory of God today and we will when we see HIM. However the important element for us is that now, because of His merciful revelation of Himself to us, IN HIS WRITTEN WORD we do see a portion of His eternal glory, even if imperfectly. Others are totally blind to even the part we see imperfectly.

I think that the correct thinking here is that we as believers are in the process of becoming just like Him, and we will share His very life in glory, as 1 John 3:2 assures us:...…..
"Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."

Now, can you quote ONE single BIBLE Scripture that supports Apostolic Continueisim?

Billy Evmur said:

You love to play with God's word don't you, a little twist here and slight bending there...make it fit your doctrine.

Prophesying beside being predictive is preaching, even if you insist it is teaching, brother has teaching ceased in the church? is knowledge at all perfect or even complete?

Or do we still see as through a glass darkly?

Paul goes on to say "when I was a child I thought as a child, I spake as a child, I reasoned as a child, when I became a man I gave up childish ways" oh we love to beat the Pentecostals with that one don't we.

Tell me when the Apostle Paul "spake in tongues more than ye all" was he behaving childishly?

"Now I know in part" says Paul "then I shall understand fully" are you incredibly claiming to understand more or better than Paul did? whereas he saw as through a glass darkly, you say we see clearly?

How come when what you claim to be that perfect came, that is to say the canon of scripture, it exhorted us to earnestly covet the gifts, especially that we may prophesy, which prophesying you claim the canon superceded.

How come this perfect you claim was followed by more than a 1,000 years of utter darkness in the church with the rise of the RCC?

Click to expand...

God ALWAYS had during the Middle Ages His true Church comprised of born again believers though...

Billy Evmur said:

Hi

It is a big mistake to look at the church and assume that this is what the church should be. If you had walked into a church in the 14th century you would feel yourself I an alien world, almost nothing was what the church is meant to be.

It is a modern mistake also to think that the western church is still in the vanguard of what God is doing in the world today, we are actually in the backwaters.

If God does a thing once and it is beyond question God then the case is proved. If it can be shown that in one instance the Holy Spirit has been poured out in apostolic power today then the doctrine is proved.

Click to expand...

The vast majority of so called Apostolic power is shown to be either frauds or deceptions, and the basic truth still remains that MUCH of the fridge charismatic movement as in Wof and dominion/prosperity hold to doctrines not taught in the Bible!