Salvation of non-Catholics

Rhamiel · Dec 7, 2018

Jesus says that He gives eternal life to those who follow Him, His sheep, but that those who do not follow Him are not His Sheep

John 10:24-28
24 The Jews therefore came round about him, and said to him: How long dost thou hold our souls in suspense? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them: I speak to you, and you believe not: the works that I do in the name of my Father, they give testimony of me.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep.

27 My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me.

28 And I give them life everlasting; and they shall not perish for ever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand.

He says that those who reject Him also reject God the Father

John 8:42-47
[42] Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me. For from God I proceeded, and came; for I came not of myself, but he sent me: [43]Why do you not know my speech? Because you cannot hear my word. [44] You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. [45] But if I say the truth, you believe me not.

[46] Which of you shall convict me of sin? If I say the truth to you, why do you not believe me? [47] He that is of God, heareth the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because you are not of God.

1 John 2:23
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son, hath the Father also.

That those who reject Jesus lack understanding of the Prophets

John 5:46-47
46 For if you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?

And rejecting His Church is a rejection of Him
Luke 10:16
He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.

Please add other verses that add light to this topic as well as quotes from the great saints

Unofficial Reverand Alex · Dec 7, 2018

The Catechism does not give a completely clear answer for this; however, it does establish that salvation is possible for people away from the Church, even those who have rejected Him entirely. We must not rule out the incredible power of Christ's mercy!

From Catholic Answers:

Non-Catholics can be saved, as the Church affirms (CCC 846-48), but we should not presume that this will necessarily happen, lest we fall into the sin of religious indifferentism. Regarding the level of their purgation, God will judge in a mercifully just way in each person’s case (cf. 1 Cor. 3:10-15).

Certainly Catholics have the fullness of the faith and graces in living the life of Christ. This puts them in a better position to attain greater heavenly rewards. On the other hand, to whom much has been given, much will be expected, Jesus says (Luke 12:48).

Jesus' words to Sr. Faustina in her Diary:

"I often attend upon the dying and through entreaties obtain for them trust in God's mercy, and I implore God for an abundance of divine grace, which is always victorious. God's mercy sometimes touches the sinner at the last moment in a wondrous and mysterious way. Outwardly, it seems as if everything were lost, but it is not so. The soul, illumined by a ray of God's powerful final grace, turns to God in the last moment with such a power of love that, in an instant, it receives from God forgiveness of sin and punishment, while outwardly it shows no sign either of repentance or of contrition, because souls [at that stage] no longer react to external things. Oh, how beyond comprehension is God's mercy! But - horror! - there are also souls who voluntarily and consciously reject and scorn this grace! Although a person is at the point of death, the merciful God gives the soul that interior vivid moment, so that if the soul is willing, it has the possibility of returning to God. But sometimes, the obduracy in souls is so great that consciously they choose hell; they [thus] make useless all the prayers that other souls offer to God for them and even the efforts of God Himself."
(Diary No.1698)

God be with you.

Rescued One · Dec 7, 2018

concretecamper · Dec 7, 2018

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:
The Catechism does not give a completely clear answer for this

Yes, the CCC is gray.

Dogmas of the Catholic Church

The Sacramental confession of sins is ordained by God and is necessary for salvation

For children before the age of reason, the reception of the Eucharist is not necessary for salvation.

I hope for the salvation of all Christians and those we honor with that name.

However, one could certainly argue that children of protestants, by virtue of their Baptism are incorporated into the body of Christ. And they remain there until they reject His Church.

anna ~ grace · Dec 8, 2018

Can a Christian who has faith and does the works of salvation, but who has been taught and believes horrible lies about the Church (and therefor hates Her) be saved?

concretecamper · Dec 8, 2018

Gracia Singh said:
Can a Christian who has faith and does the works of salvation, but who has been taught and believes horrible lies about the Church (and therefor hates Her) be saved?

A couple of thoughts:
1. Your question is above my pay grade.
2. Is God's grace sufficient to bring all to Him? If it is, then those who stay out of His Church are resisting His grace.
3. Gospel of Luke: "He that heareth you heareth Me: and he that despiseth you despiseth Me: and he that despiseth Me despiseth Him that sent Me."
4. Christ said to Paul "Why do you persecute Me?

chevyontheriver · Dec 8, 2018

concretecamper said:
Yes, the CCC is gray.

Dogmas of the Catholic Church

The Sacramental confession of sins is ordained by God and is necessary for salvation

For children before the age of reason, the reception of the Eucharist is not necessary for salvation.

I hope for the salvation of all Christians and those we honor with that name.

However, one could certainly argue that children of protestants, by virtue of their Baptism are incorporated into the body of Christ. And they remain there until they reject His Church.

Today, at mass, our new associate priest spoke of the Immaculate Conception as dogma that must be believed to be saved. He didn't say anything about other Christians who aren't Catholic. Do they all really go to hell unless they believe all the dogmas?

concretecamper · Dec 8, 2018

chevyontheriver said:
Do they all really go to hell unless they believe all the dogmas?

Dogmas are those truths that are revealed by God to His Church. Its sort of like saying I'm not believing what God has revealed. I'll leave it to you to determine the destination of such a person.

Rescued One · Dec 8, 2018

People are not Christians unless they have been given faith in Christ.

John 3
18 No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God's only Son.
John - Chapter 3 - Bible - Catholic Online

Markie Boy · Dec 9, 2018

chevyontheriver said:
Today, at mass, our new associate priest spoke of the Immaculate Conception as dogma that must be believed to be saved. He didn't say anything about other Christians who aren't Catholic. Do they all really go to hell unless they believe all the dogmas?

The Immaculate Conception is a tough one - as you could have been a Catholic for 1800 years and really not paid much mind to it. Then in 1854 it gets defined and now you must consent.

So in 1853 a person could pay it no mind and be OK, but in 1855 the same person who did not change is in trouble.

There is much we can learn from the East - both Eastern Catholic and Orthodox. Is this an important teaching, so important it impacts your salvation - I'm slow to agree.

I think we may actually be able to teach much more, without defining and dividing so much. In things not essential, Paul seems to leave room for some liberty.

I have been reading early Church writings lately, and notice two things:

1. In some ways I see Catholic teachings and ways that we still do today.

2. But in this way not so much - the Church today has defined tons of stuff, but really does not teach much at all, or demand compliance. The early Church had very little mandatory beliefs, but they did demand that you actually follow them or they'd put you out.

BTW - I have no issue with the Immaculate Conception - but I do prefer how the East describes it.

concretecamper · Dec 9, 2018

Markie Boy said:
The Immaculate Conception is a tough one - as you could have been a Catholic for 1800 years and really not paid much mind to it.

And, for the first 350 years of the Church you could have not paid to much attention to "Mary Mother of God". But once His Church defines it, you must believe. So, every Dogma is a tough one.

I think it is a question of obedience rather than how a certain belief is salvific.

Rhamiel · Dec 9, 2018

2 Peter 3:14-18
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.
18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

Verse 16 speaks of distorting the teachings of scripture leads to destruction
Also the word “lawless” stands out, I can not help but think of how Christianity is viewed by the popular culture, just find a church that agrees with you, no rules, lawless

Markie Boy · Dec 9, 2018

concretecamper said:
And, for the first 350 years of the Church you could have not paid to much attention to "Mary Mother of God". But once His Church defines it, you must believe. So, every Dogma is a tough one.

I think it is a question of obedience rather than how a certain belief is salvific.

I do understand your point, and agree. To jus skip it we can loose sight of who Mary is.

concretecamper · Dec 9, 2018

Markie Boy said:
jus skip it we can loose sight of who Mary is.

absolutely. I believe the Immaculate Conception is implicit in Scripture and explicit in the teachings of the Church Fathers.

To celebrate the ordinary conception of the Blessed Virgin is odd to me.

zippy2006 · Dec 9, 2018

chevyontheriver said:
Today, at mass, our new associate priest spoke of the Immaculate Conception as dogma that must be believed to be saved. He didn't say anything about other Christians who aren't Catholic. Do they all really go to hell unless they believe all the dogmas?

Out of curiosity, what year was he ordained?

Rhamiel · Dec 9, 2018

Read all of Second Peter chapter two

While it covers a multitude of sins, such as coverting, rebellion, and lust, it starts out being very strong against false teachers and damnible heresies

I do not want to read too much into it but the way the chapter is set up it even seems to imply that bad doctrine will help lead to those things

I hope people notice that I am not just jumping to the words of Popes or visions of mystics

I am trying to give this a firm biblical foundation, then move on to how the Church has traditionally understood this teaching

chevyontheriver · Dec 10, 2018

zippy2006 said:
Out of curiosity, what year was he ordained?

I think he was in the crop from four years ago.

Markie Boy · Dec 12, 2018

Rhamiel said:
Read all of Second Peter chapter two

While it covers a multitude of sins, such as coverting, rebellion, and lust, it starts out being very strong against false teachers and damnible heresies

I do not want to read too much into it but the way the chapter is set up it even seems to imply that bad doctrine will help lead to those things

I hope people notice that I am not just jumping to the words of Popes or visions of mystics

I am trying to give this a firm biblical foundation, then move on to how the Church has traditionally understood this teaching

You know this is huge, and I give you credit. Catholics too often are so mixed up, and treat things like visions, dreams, and teaching of saints like they are infallible - but they are not.

We need more sound, Biblical foundations for things. That idea in 2 Peter applies much to Catholics as well, as I have seen them follow unapproved visions and apparitions like they were Gospel.

In this I am thankful for my Baptist foundation that taught me to check everything against Scripture. I have seen locally people do the 12 year St. Bridget prayers and think all those promises are true - they don't know the promises were shut down by the Vatican. The same people have gotten into the Charismatic movement and do and believe some unscriptural stuff too. Good folks for sure - but following false teaching.

Rhamiel · Dec 20, 2018

Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury,

20 Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects,

21 Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

Dissenting and sects
These do not lead to the Kingdom of God!

Rhamiel · Jan 11, 2019

Outside the Church there is no Salvation Archives - Catholicism.org

Here is an article with quotes from various Popes and links to more in-depth study on this topic

Also prayers for the members of the Slaves Of The Immaculate Heart of Mary who are being persecuted by Modernists within the Church hierarchy

Salvation of non-Catholics

Member of the Round Table

Pray in silence...God speaks softly

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Member of His Church

Newbie

Member of His Church

Well-Known Member

Member of His Church

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Well-Known Member

Member of His Church

Member of the Round Table

Well-Known Member

Member of His Church

Dragonsworn

Member of the Round Table

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member of the Round Table

Member of the Round Table

Similar threads