Is Mary the Mother of the Church or of all Christians?

ToServe

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Is Mary mother of the Church?

If only the Apostle who was charged to be a son to Mary by Jesus, would address her in his letter to the 7 churches within his Prologue, Greetings and Doxology.

Read and accept please,

1The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Rev 1:1-2)

Everything he saw and was instructed to dispense to THE CHURCH, OK fair enought!

Where is Mary?

MIA (missing in action)

Therefore, Mary cannot be the mother of THE CHURCH, since the last book summarises and reveals the entire faith of the entire Biblios by the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Got it!
 
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Saint Steven

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It is an ancient Christian Tradition.
What are the writing dates for the veneration of Mary? (how ancient is "ancient"?)
We see nothing in the New Testament that comes anywhere close to the extent in Tradition. (capital "T")
 
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Saint Steven

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I don't see Mary mentioned as the mother of them. Also Joseph is mentioned as his father, does that mean Jesus didn't come from God?
That's an interesting point.
But what do you do with this? (see scripture below)
The marriage was consummated. The natural outcome would be having children.
Unless you are claiming that Mary was infertile after the birth of Christ?

Matthew 1:24-25
When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
 
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Jerusalem here means the Church. However both the Church and Mary can be considered "Mother" since Mary is a type of Church like Ambrose said:
“Well [does the Gospel say]: married but a virgin; because she is the type of the Church, which is also married but remains immaculate. The Virgin [Church] conceived us by the Holy Spirit and, as a virgin, gave birth to us without pain. And perhaps this is why holy Mary, married to one man [Joseph], is made fruitful by another [the Holy Spirit], to show that the individual churches are filled with the Spirit and with grace, even as they are united to the person of a temporal priest.” – Expositio in Lucam
The word "perhaps" indicates speculation. Is this the platform of Tradition? (capital "T")
 
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Catholic and Orthodox don't recognize the siblings as blood relatives. They believe Mary died a virgin and is perpetually a virgin, despite the verses that Joseph didn't 'know her' in the biblical since until after Jesus was born. They believe the siblings were Joseph's from another marriage, or in some cases they believe the reference to his 'brethren' meant countrymen or even 'cousins.' Virginity was also associated with purity. They prefer Mary to be spotless and without blemish, like the Lamb of God.
Yes. What they have established by Tradition (capital "T") is in conflict with both scripture and reason.

Since Joseph consummated the marriage, she was not a perpetual virgin. And the natural outcome of a consummated marriage is childbirth. Unless they are claiming Mary was infertile after giving birth to Christ. Which further confirms the case against perpetual virginity.

Matthew 1:24-25
When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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I don't see Mary mentioned as the mother of them. Also Joseph is mentioned as his father, does that mean Jesus didn't come from God?
I understand your church's position on these verses but to me they suffice to demonstrate Mary had other children in the usual way.
 
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Is Mary mother of the Church?

If only the Apostle who was charged to be a son to Mary by Jesus, would address her in his letter to the 7 churches within his Prologue, Greetings and Doxology.

Read and accept please,

1The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Rev 1:1-2)

Everything he saw and was instructed to dispense to THE CHURCH, OK fair enought!

Where is Mary?

MIA (missing in action)

Therefore, Mary cannot be the mother of THE CHURCH, since the last book summarises and reveals the entire faith of the entire Biblios by the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Got it!

Is Mary the mother of all Christians?

The title spiritual mother has never been advocated throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament and it has to be scrutinised in relation to the implausibility of the first question Is Mary the Mother of the Church?.

The absence of Mary within the addressing of the Church and the advocation of a title "mother of the Church" context is most disconcerting, to say the least.

Did God hold back revealing this title until the 3rd or 4th centuries or is it a case of mistaken in identity and that she has no place in all of the Apostolic writings, that would at least even hint at the possibility that she is a spiritual mother in any sense of the title mother of the Church.

How could have the apostles missed such an important title and forgot to mention her as the mother of the Church in their prologue, greetings and doxology letters that account for the majority of the New Testament formal letters, in addressing the entire Church?

Apostle Peter did not mention her in his prologue, greetings and doxology letters.
Apostle Paul did not mention her in his prologue, greetings and doxology letters.
Apostle John did not mention her in his prologue, greetings and doxology letters.
Apostle James did not mention her in his prologue, greetings and doxology letters.
Apostle Jude did not mention her in his prologue, greetings and doxology letter.

Not to mention the authors of the four gospels and the bookend, that is the Revelation of Jesus Christ that encapsulates the entire Biblios concerning the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

We cannot entertain a title that is not explicitly and repeatedly mentioned and clarified by the mouth of at least two 1st Century Apostolic witnesses and this is something that all devote and God-fearing Christians should apply as the litmus test to the questions of the thread topic. I do not see any rationale headways being made towards those who are set in their religious dogmatic doctrinal ways that are at odds with the 1st Century apostolic teachings and this to the entire Christian world should be of most important concern.

We contend with JWs and Mormons all the time and we note their dogmatic approach in the face of overwhelming truth being revealed to them in spades, but they continue in their errors, so what can we do for the Marians (Mary Camp) that we cannot do for the JWs and the Mormons?

I do not know and I believe that I have done all I am permitted to do whilst being shunned and treated unrespectfully because I love Christ and love not Mary. I do not know Mary on a personal relationship spiritual basis and do not wish to either because salvation is not about her. I can only give her the respect that God gave her and nothing more.

If God and the Apostles explicitly stated that she is our spiritual mother then we are obligated under instruction to all be Marians.
 
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A devote Christian ought not bring into the Temple of their Hearts a person of veneration, glorification and worship other than the one substance (Nicene Creed) who is the Trinity.

To bring something other than the Trinity into the Temple of God is to put in it what should not be put into it, as it desecrates the Temple of God.

No one wants to desecrate the Temple of God, because the Temple of the Christian Heart is where the Daily Sacrifice offering is made onto God. Replacing the Daily Sacrifice as Jesus pointed to Daniel is an Abomination that results in spiritual destruction of that person who carries in their heart a person outside of the Trinity.

They shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. And such as do wickedly against the Christ Blood Covenant shall they corrupt by flatteries.

It took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

1 Peter 2:5
You also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Romans 12:1
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God--this is your true and proper worship.

The hosts given it to remove the Daily Sacrifice owing to true veneration, glorification and worship is within the New Testament Holy Spirit Temple Construct and this becomes clearly observable through the Christian host who embraces an object or a person outside of the Trinity.
 
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That's an interesting point.
But what do you do with this? (see scripture below)
The marriage was consummated. The natural outcome would be having children.
Unless you are claiming that Mary was infertile after the birth of Christ?

Matthew 1:24-25
When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
Except for the fact that it was a Jewish tradition to abstain from sex after an encounter with God.
Ezek. 44:2 – Ezekiel prophesies that no man shall pass through the gate by which the Lord entered the world. This is a prophecy of Mary’s perpetual virginity. Mary remained a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus.
 
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I understand your church's position on these verses but to me they suffice to demonstrate Mary had other children in the usual way.
If it doesn't say "children of Mary", your verse confirms nothing.
 
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Is Mary the mother of all Christians?

The title spiritual mother has never been advocated throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament and it has to be scrutinised in relation to the implausibility of the first question Is Mary the Mother of the Church?.

The absence of Mary within the addressing of the Church and the advocation of a title "mother of the Church" context is most disconcerting, to say the least.

Did God hold back revealing this title until the 3rd or 4th centuries or is it a case of mistaken in identity and that she has no place in all of the Apostolic writings, that would at least even hint at the possibility that she is a spiritual mother in any sense of the title mother of the Church.

How could have the apostles missed such an important title and forgot to mention her as the mother of the Church in their prologue, greetings and doxology letters that account for the majority of the New Testament formal letters, in addressing the entire Church?

Apostle Peter did not mention her in his prologue, greetings and doxology letters.
Apostle Paul did not mention her in his prologue, greetings and doxology letters.
Apostle John did not mention her in his prologue, greetings and doxology letters.
Apostle James did not mention her in his prologue, greetings and doxology letters.
Apostle Jude did not mention her in his prologue, greetings and doxology letter.

Not to mention the authors of the four gospels and the bookend, that is the Revelation of Jesus Christ that encapsulates the entire Biblios concerning the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

We cannot entertain a title that is not explicitly and repeatedly mentioned and clarified by the mouth of at least two 1st Century Apostolic witnesses and this is something that all devote and God-fearing Christians should apply as the litmus test to the questions of the thread topic. I do not see any rationale headways being made towards those who are set in their religious dogmatic doctrinal ways that are at odds with the 1st Century apostolic teachings and this to the entire Christian world should be of most important concern.

We contend with JWs and Mormons all the time and we note their dogmatic approach in the face of overwhelming truth being revealed to them in spades, but they continue in their errors, so what can we do for the Marians (Mary Camp) that we cannot do for the JWs and the Mormons?

I do not know and I believe that I have done all I am permitted to do whilst being shunned and treated unrespectfully because I love Christ and love not Mary. I do not know Mary on a personal relationship spiritual basis and do not wish to either because salvation is not about her. I can only give her the respect that God gave her and nothing more.

If God and the Apostles explicitly stated that she is our spiritual mother then we are obligated under instruction to all be Marians.
God also commanded his followers to be one, and Jesus said that he who not hears the Church let him be a gentile and tax collector. Paul calls the Church "the foundation and pillar of Truth". None of your schismatics ideas are confirmed by any of the Apostolic Churches.
 
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Saint Steven

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Except for the fact that it was a Jewish tradition to abstain from sex after an encounter with God.
Ezek. 44:2 – Ezekiel prophesies that no man shall pass through the gate by which the Lord entered the world. This is a prophecy of Mary’s perpetual virginity. Mary remained a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus.
Sorry. That doesn't hold water. (not valid)
The gate in this scripture is a literal gate, not figurative one.
And says nothing about messiah passing through it.
Unless I am missing something here.

Ezekiel 44:2
The Lord said to me, “This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered through it.
 
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Sorry. That doesn't hold water. (not valid)
The gate in this scripture is a literal gate, not figurative one.
And says nothing about messiah passing through it.
Unless I am missing something here.

Ezekiel 44:2
The Lord said to me, “This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered through it.
Isn't Jesus God?
 
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Saint Steven

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If it doesn't say "children of Mary", your verse confirms nothing.
But this scripture says the marriage was consummated.
You can't really steer around that fact. Right?

Matthew 1:24-25
When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
 
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Saint Steven

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Isn't Jesus God?
That doesn't make it say what you are claiming.
I've seen this kind of logic before.

A duck has a bill
My cap has a bill
Therefore my cap is a duck.
 
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But this scripture says the marriage was consummated.
You can't really steer around that fact. Right?

Matthew 1:24-25
When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
Jesus said "I will be with you until the end of the world", does the "until" means that he would stop be with us after that?
 
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That doesn't make it say what you are claiming.
I've seen this kind of logic before.

A duck has a bill
My cap has a bill
Therefore my cap is a duck.
I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of
heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of
God, begotten of the Father before all ages;

Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten,
not created, of one essence with the Father
through Whom all things were made.
 
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Saint Steven

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Jesus said "I will be with you until the end of the world", does the "until" means that he would stop be with us after that?
This is the scripture in question. What is your point?

Matthew 1:24-25
When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
 
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Saint Steven

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I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of
heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of
God, begotten of the Father before all ages;

Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten,
not created, of one essence with the Father
through Whom all things were made.
That's great, but...
This is the scripture in question. What is your point?

Ezekiel 44:2
The Lord said to me, “This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered through it.
 
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This is the scripture in question. What is your point?

Matthew 1:24-25
When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
I like this explanation from "Scripture Catholic":
Matt. 1:25 – this verse says Joseph knew her “not until (“heos”, in Greek)” she bore a son. Some Protestants argue that this proves Joseph had relations with Mary after she bore a son. This is an erroneous reading of the text because “not until” does not mean “did not…until after.” “Heos” references the past, never the future. Instead, “not until” she bore a son means “not up to the point that” she bore a son. This confirms that Mary was a virgin when she bore Jesus. Here are other texts that prove “not until” means “not up to the point that”:

Matt. 28:29 – I am with you “until the end of the world.” This does not mean Jesus is not with us after the end of the world.

Luke 1:80 – John was in the desert “up to the point of his manifestation to Israel.” Not John “was in the desert until after” his manifestation.

Luke 2:37 – Anna was a widow “up to the point that” she was eighty-four years old. She was not a widow after eighty-four years old.

Luke 20:43 – Jesus says, “take your seat at my hand until I have made your enemies your footstool.” Jesus is not going to require the apostles to sit at His left hand after their enemies are their footstool.

1 Tim. 4:13 – “up to the point that I come,” attend to teaching and preaching. It does not mean do nothing “until after” I come.

Gen. 8:7 – the raven flew back and forth “up to the point that” [until] the waters dried from the earth. The raven did not start flying after the waters dried.

Gen. 28:15 – the Lord won’t leave Jacob “up to the point that” he does His promise. This does not mean the Lord will leave Jacob afterward.

Deut. 34:6 – but “up to the point of today” no one knows Moses’ burial place. This does not mean that “they did not know place until today.”

2 Sam. 6:23 – Saul’s daughter Micah was childless “up to the point” [until] her death. She was not with child after her death.

1 Macc. 5:54 – not one was slain “up to the point that” they returned in peace. They were not slain after they returned in peace
 
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