What is the Scriptural Basis for Cessationism?

Major1 said:

Can you post ONE Scripture that confirms the "continuation theology" where there is direction that there will be a continuation of the office of Apostle?

We all understand that the Sign Gifts were given to the ELEVEN, so where in the Scriptures is it said that those gifts will continue after the ministry of Apotles are finished.

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You are conflating two things. The "Apostles" were those listed (plus Paul) and they complete the Canon of scripture. However the sign gifts - and all other gifts of the Holy Spirit - are not limited to Apostles, nor does scripture support this position. No, the sign gifts were not only to the 11. ALL of the disciples spoke in tongues and prophesied when the Holy Spirit fell on Pentecost. Acts 2:1-4. That's 120 right there.

2 And suddenly a sound came from heaven like the rush of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Peter then begins speaking and his very first message includes this:
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy."

He also tells them in Acts 2:39:

“Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”

All these who are "your children and all that are far off (generations)" are getting the same Holy Spirit the original disciples got. There is no watered-down version for today. It is our lack of belief and the infiltration of the world into the church that has so watered down the gospel to a "get out of hell free" card and not much else.

There is never any change in the Holy Spirit. That's man's tradition, not the gospel.

The Holy Spirit coming with signs occurs repeatedly throughout of Acts as Paul goes place to place. The Samaritan believers in Acts 8. When Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit (scripture talks at length about how he speaks in tongues "more than you all", nevertheless in church he will speak with his mind - he does both). Acts 19, the believers in Ephesus are filled with the Spirit, speak in tongues, and spread the word in the same way that it is being spread elsewhere. The Kingdom moves outward organically; it was never intended to be an empire built by man. In Acts 10, the house of Cornelius receives the Holy Spirit. These are not limited incidents, but they are the ones recorded. Scripture itself tells us the books could not contain all that happened.

Acts 6:8
And Stephen, full of grace and power, was doing great wonders and signs among the people. (NOT an apostle, by the way).

Acts 8 Phillip performed signs as well. (NOT an apostle).

The Holy Spirit empowered the disciples at Pentecost (which included the Apostles but was not limited to them) for the express purpose of being His witnesses in the same way to the ends of the earth. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

1 Corinthians 13 says that the gifts will continue until the end of the church age, when Jesus appears. The gifts end when you "know fully, even as you are fully known."

You aren't there yet, nor am I, nor are any of us. We do NOT "know FULLY, even as we are fully known." We are still seeing in a mirror dimly; we are not yet seeing face to face.

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

(That's Paul, the Apostle writing that, by the way -even HE says that he sees dimly but will see face to face. Knowledge has not passed away either, so we know the other two haven't because scriptures says they all go when we see face to face. We aren't there yet).

Major1 said:

Didn't Jesus come to seek and save the lost and in fact didn't He come to Israel first.

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Yes. So? Jesus came to Israel first. The early disciples quickly learned that the Holy Spirit was to fall on Jews and gentiles alike. Paul, a learned Jew, was sent to the gentiles. Peter, an unlearned fisherman, was sent to Israel. Everyone doesn't have the same assigned area but everyone has the same job of spreading the good news.

tdidymas said:

By the statement underlined, are you meaning that the Pharisees saw the miracles but did not believe they were miracles? This meaning appears to be what you are saying in the context of this discussion, since it is about cessationism.

If this is your meaning, then you have come to a false conclusion. The Pharisees actually did believe they were miracles, since they acknowledged them as such. The Pharisees understood the miracles Christ did as miracles, but did not believe in Him.

So then, are you trying to use this example as an argument against cessationism, to suggest that a cessationist does not believe in Christ?

I'm just saying that your communication lacks clarity.
TD

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And Bible validity as well.

RestoreTheJoy said:

You are conflating two things. The "Apostles" were those listed (plus Paul) and they complete the Canon of scripture. However the sign gifts - and all other gifts of the Holy Spirit - are not limited to Apostles, nor does scripture support this position. No, the sign gifts were not only to the 11. ALL of the disciples spoke in tongues and prophesied when the Holy Spirit fell on Pentecost. Acts 2:1-4. That's 120 right there.

2 And suddenly a sound came from heaven like the rush of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Peter then begins speaking and his very first message includes this:
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy."

He also tells them in Acts 2:39:

“Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”

All these who are "your children and all that are far off (generations)" are getting the same Holy Spirit the original disciples got. There is no watered-down version for today. It is our lack of belief and the infiltration of the world into the church that has so watered down the gospel to a "get out of hell free" card and not much else.

There is never any change in the Holy Spirit. That's man's tradition, not the gospel.

The Holy Spirit coming with signs occurs repeatedly throughout of Acts as Paul goes place to place. The Samaritan believers in Acts 8. When Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit (scripture talks at length about how he speaks in tongues "more than you all", nevertheless in church he will speak with his mind - he does both). Acts 19, the believers in Ephesus are filled with the Spirit, speak in tongues, and spread the word in the same way that it is being spread elsewhere. The Kingdom moves outward organically; it was never intended to be an empire built by man. In Acts 10, the house of Cornelius receives the Holy Spirit. These are not limited incidents, but they are the ones recorded. Scripture itself tells us the books could not contain all that happened.

Acts 6:8
And Stephen, full of grace and power, was doing great wonders and signs among the people. (NOT an apostle, by the way).

Acts 8 Phillip performed signs as well. (NOT an apostle).

The Holy Spirit empowered the disciples at Pentecost (which included the Apostles but was not limited to them) for the express purpose of being His witnesses in the same way to the ends of the earth. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

1 Corinthians 13 says that the gifts will continue until the end of the church age, when Jesus appears. The gifts end when you "know fully, even as you are fully known."

You aren't there yet, nor am I, nor are any of us. We do NOT "know FULLY, even as we are fully known." We are still seeing in a mirror dimly; we are not yet seeing face to face.

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

(That's Paul, the Apostle writing that, by the way -even HE says that he sees dimly but will see face to face. Knowledge has not passed away either, so we know the other two haven't because scriptures says they all go when we see face to face. We aren't there yet).

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I appreciate your thinking and input.

However, I would point out to you that there are no direct examples recorded
in the New Testament of a believer receiving the miraculous gifts of the
Holy Spirit except by laying on of hands of an apostle.

The events of Acts chapter two and Acts chapter ten might appear to be an exception, but these events were one-time occurrences, and there is no evidence that
those on whom the Holy Spirit was poured in Acts chapter ten received the
long-term ability to perform these gifts.

Acts 8:9-17 seems to imply that apostles were required for the miraculous gifts to be given.

Now a great many people place their theology on the 120 present in
the upper room on the Day of Pentecost received the baptism of the Holy
Spirit. But when you read the event carefully you actually do not see any evidence that anyone other than the apostles received the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the upper room.

I am not sure why anyone would assume that all 120 people had the Spirit poured out on them. The passage says that fire was on the apostles, but not on anyone
else. I cannot state absolutely, unambiguously that only the apostles
received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but to assume that anyone else
did is not supported by the evidence.

What that means is that a lot of people WANT the Scriptures to say what they want them to say instead of accepting them as what they actually do say.

Therein lies the difference in denomination teachings instead of correct Bible exegesis.
IMO!

Of course, anyone and everyone is free to disagree with me.

RestoreTheJoy said:

Yes. So? Jesus came to Israel first. The early disciples quickly learned that the Holy Spirit was to fall on Jews and gentiles alike. Paul, a learned Jew, was sent to the gentiles. Peter, an unlearned fisherman, was sent to Israel. Everyone doesn't have the same assigned area but everyone has the same job of spreading the good news.

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I do not agree with that my brother.

I personally think that they did not realize that until Jesus was gone from them.

Rom. 11:25...…….
"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in."

Arriving in Caesarea, he was greeted by a large group of Gentiles that Cornelius had gathered in his home there. They all wanted to hear about Jesus, and so he began to speak. While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit came upon all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, for they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said in Acts 10:44-48...…
“Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days".

Major1 said:

I do not agree with that my brother.

I personally think that they did not realize that until Jesus was gone from them.

Rom. 11:25...…….
"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in."

Arriving in Caesarea, he was greeted by a large group of Gentiles that Cornelius had gathered in his home there. They all wanted to hear about Jesus, and so he began to speak. While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit came upon all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, for they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said in Acts 10:44-48...…
“Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days".

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I am confused as to the nature of your disagreement. I agree with everything you say here.

W2L said:

So if a person goes to a doctor instead of being healed by God, this means they are not saved? Thats basically what you're saying.

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I am saying no such a thing...God will give you what you believe Him for according to scripture, if preachers when they preach salvation keep back part of the truth concerning all that is included in salvation then people can't believe in those things which are not preached.

No Jew would ever expect that God would pardon their sin but leave them sick or not delivered from evil.

tdidymas said:

By the statement underlined, are you meaning that the Pharisees saw the miracles but did not believe they were miracles? This meaning appears to be what you are saying in the context of this discussion, since it is about cessationism.

If this is your meaning, then you have come to a false conclusion. The Pharisees actually did believe they were miracles, since they acknowledged them as such. The Pharisees understood the miracles Christ did as miracles, but did not believe in Him.

So then, are you trying to use this example as an argument against cessationism, to suggest that a cessationist does not believe in Christ?

I'm just saying that your communication lacks clarity.
TD

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No but you must admit that miracles happen today for the evidence is overwhelming, but you doubt somewhat by whose power they are wrought...

Guess what? the evil does not do compassion, the evil tree does not do good fruit.

Major1 said:

Correct!

1 Cor. 14:1...….
"Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy."

Prophesy in the original Greek means...…"TO TEACH".

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So prophesying [preaching] one of the gifts along with tongues and interpretations is not in your opinion done away with.

Major1 said:

You said...……..
"We all know that our souls are the most important...yet God specifically does not give priority emphasis to that, the church does but she has no right to, it is presumptious. "

Are you real sure that you want to say that my friend????

I would encourage you to re-think your thinking on this comment.

A. W. Tozer, the dean of modern writers on this subject, said...…….
“What comes into our minds when we think about God is the most important thing about us…. We tend by a secret law of the soul to move toward our mental image of God.”

David Jeremiah said...……
"According to the Bible, our God is the Everlasting Father, the God of hosts, the Lord of heaven and earth, the Author and Finisher of our faith AND THE SAVIOUR OF OUR SOULS. He is the Comforter, the Counselor, the Creator. He is the Great Physician and the God of all grace. His Name is I AM, the Alpha and Omega, and the Holy One of Israel. We can call Him Jehovah, the Most High, and the Lord of the living and the dead. He is Maker, Mediator, and Man of sorrows. He is our Prophet, Priest, and King; our Redeemer, Refuge, and Rock. He is Ruler of heaven and earth. He is the Friend of sinners."

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The church is not wiser than her Master, I did not say that the salvation of the soul is not more important, I said that the emphasis upon it is neither scriptural or right.

Multiplied multitudes more are saved when preaching is accompanied by the power and demonstration of the Holy Spirit simply because so many more people are attracted to it.

Samaria turned to the Lord when they saw miracles of Phillip's ministry.

Major1 said:

Correct!

1 Cor. 14:1...….
"Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy."

Prophesy in the original Greek means...…"TO TEACH".

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Not in strongs numbers. Not teach.
1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
1Co 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

The 12 apostles had a great revelation of God and special places in God and grace. But without the office of apostle, church planting is slow and crumbling. Church planter ministers have the role of the apostles, apart from knowing Jesus in the flesh. If apostles stop, church growth depends on believers having children.

Apostles are needed in China and India, and Russia, and Africa...

GoldenKingGaze said:

Not in strongs numbers. Not teach.
1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
1Co 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

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The Greek word translated “prophesying” or “prophecy” in the New Test. properly means to “speak forth” or declare the divine will, to interpret the purposes of God, or to make known in any way the truth of God which is designed to influence people.

Many people misunderstand the gift of prophecy to be the ability to predict the future. While knowing something about the future may sometimes have been an aspect of the gift of prophecy, it was primarily a gift of proclamation (“forth-telling”), not prediction (“fore-telling”).

Jude 3 speaks of …..
“the faith which was once delivered unto the saints”.

In other words, the faith to which we hold has been settled forever, and it does not need the addition or refinement that comes from extra-biblical revelations from men.

It is very important to remember 2 Peter 2:1...…..
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign LORD who bought them-bringing swift destruction on themselves."

GoldenKingGaze said:

The 12 apostles had a great revelation of God and special places in God and grace. But without the office of apostle, church planting is slow and crumbling. Church planter ministers have the role of the apostles, apart from knowing Jesus in the flesh. If apostles stop, church growth depends on believers having children.

Apostles are needed in China and India, and Russia, and Africa...

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You do realize that a True Apostle, according to the Scripture had to be...……..
1). Acts 1:21-26...………
"Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us...….

2).
"beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become A WITNESS WITH US OF HIS RESURRECTION."

Because of those Bible qualifications to be an Apostle, there can not be any Apostles today.

Billy Evmur said:

So prophesying [preaching] one of the gifts along with tongues and interpretations is not in your opinion done away with.

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NO sir. That is not what I said.

"Prophesying" is the ability to TEACH the Word of God and not to FORTELL the Word of God.
Again, if we read the Scriptures we see that God said those gifts would end. I only believe what God actually said, NOT what I want Him to have said.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10...….
"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears."

Major1 said:

The Greek word translated “prophesying” or “prophecy” in the New Test. properly means to “speak forth” or declare the divine will, to interpret the purposes of God, or to make known in any way the truth of God which is designed to influence people.

Many people misunderstand the gift of prophecy to be the ability to predict the future. While knowing something about the future may sometimes have been an aspect of the gift of prophecy, it was primarily a gift of proclamation (“forth-telling”), not prediction (“fore-telling”).

Jude 3 speaks of …..
“the faith which was once delivered unto the saints”.

In other words, the faith to which we hold has been settled forever, and it does not need the addition or refinement that comes from extra-biblical revelations from men.

It is very important to remember 2 Peter 2:1...…..
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign LORD who bought them-bringing swift destruction on themselves."

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KJV
Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

The context here looks at the saints of Jude's church in the first century. Not all saints for all time. Jude mentions the past in the next verse. The deliverer here must be Jude. They were converted knowing the fundamental tenets of the faith and prepared for endurance and holiness and that was then. Each new generation needs the delivery of the faith and strengthening... Peter and Paul died in Nero's persecution, however John lived on past the time of Jude's letter and gained even more REVELATION! There is more.

Sola Scriptura is a man made teaching, and while good working it is not perfectly correct. Prophecy is something as quoted, that has the ability to see the secrets of men's hearts. Some youth need this. Not to mention people of any age.

Because there was no publishing and not all could read anyway, prophecy would still be needed for most in Greece, and later in Austria and France and India...

Major1 said:

You do realize that a True Apostle, according to the Scripture had to be...……..
1). Acts 1:21-26...………
"Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us...….

2).
"beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become A WITNESS WITH US OF HIS RESURRECTION."

Because of those Bible qualifications to be an Apostle, there can not be any Apostles today.

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The first apostles apart from Paul had a great experience and revelation, but apostles plant churches, not only bear witness of His resurrection. Today we can still to a lesser extent witness the resurrection.

Major1 said:

NO sir. That is not what I said.

"Prophesying" is the ability to TEACH the Word of God and not to FORTELL the Word of God.
Again, if we read the Scriptures we see that God said those gifts would end. I only believe what God actually said, NOT what I want Him to have said.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10...….
"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears."

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I would put "but when the vastly brighter light comes" as a better translation, paraphrase.

When Jesus returns we will have more than a complete book or a dim mirror revelation, as Jesus said, it will be like lightening, lighting all from east to west at once.

Neo4257 said:

One thing I don't understand about cessationism. Throughout the Book of John, Jesus constantly points to the miracles and good works performed as an indication that He was from The Father, because generally speaking the religious leaders didn't accept the words He spoke concerning His identity. The same thing happened in Acts with the early church. If Jesus used the Gifts of the Spirit to reach the lost and He is our model, even saying we would do greater works than Him, what is the scriptural basis for the gifts ceasing after the Scripture was complete? Does the completion of Scripture somehow belittle the need for healing the sick, raising the dead and casting out demons? Why would we divorce ourselves from the spiritual gifts if they were and are so effective in reaching the lost? Furthermore, if even John said the entire record of Jesus couldn't be contained in the word, why do we make such an emphasis on the word instead of Jesus who is the Word incarnate?

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The Gospels and Acts were recording down to us a Transistion period between the Old and New Covenants, as jesus ministered under the Old One, and the church in Acts was still switching over fully into the New.
We need to focus on the teachings and doctrine of the Epistles, and where do they tell us to cast out demons, to walk in signs and wonders for example?
And we must define what is meant by ceasing, as many still see God able to heal and do miracles Himself as he wills them, just not gifted any person to do that as Apostles were, and see no ongoing revelations have come forth by God since Book of Revelation.

Billy Evmur said:

No but you must admit that miracles happen today for the evidence is overwhelming, but you doubt somewhat by whose power they are wrought...

Guess what? the evil does not do compassion, the evil tree does not do good fruit.

Click to expand...

I agree with you on this, and I do believe that miracles happen today, although not near as prolific as it was in the days of the early church (the 1st Century). But the writer of Hebrews excludes himself in the working of signs and wonders which he mentioned in Heb. 2:4, and he does not identify himself as one of the apostles.

The issue is not whether or not miracles happen today. The issue is about whether or not any Christian today HAS one of those gifts of the Spirit mentioned in 1 Cor. 12. One workaround for the lack of evidence is the theory going around that those gifts were temporary bestowments given to individuals at a particular meeting. IOW, the gift was given only for the purpose of that meeting, and after that meeting those individuals no longer had that gift. However, I can't see this as a valid theory, the way that I read the scripture. If this was the case, Paul would not have said "I speak in tongues more than you all." Paul HAD the gift of tongues, and he used it at his own discretion, of course according to God's will.

In my mind, the crux of the issue surrounds modern day Pentecostalism, and whether or not the "tongues" of today is the same kind of "tongues" mentioned in 1 Cor. The question at hand is, does modern day Pentecostalism actually practice the authentic gifts of the Spirit, or is the movement merely playing with religious activity made to look like it? Does the movement have a miraculous spiritual source, or is it a fleshly source?

I do not want an answer to these questions, as they are rhetorical by nature. I am merely stating what I believe to be the core of the issue, and the essence of the debate on cessationism. It does not mean that a cessationist believes that Pentecostalism is evil or of the devil. Neither does it mean that a Pentecostal who exhibits good fruit in their life authenticates the movement's claim.
TD