Going "Undercover" as a "Mormon" question for non LDS christians

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Ironhold

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I didnt have missionary lessons because i was brought to the church by my gf at the time, who tought me plenty and kinda took charge of that so i really didnt have much contact with missonaries other than hello and goodbye during and after the sacrament meeting...

That's... another red flag, actually.

You should have gotten the lessons regardless.
 
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Ironhold

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In any evangelical church you are not expected to learn soley from missonaries or pastors,

1. That's the exact *opposite* of what I've seen happen in the past, with mainline Christian ministers basically making anything they don't approve of off-limits.

2. You should have been actively encouraged to study on your own, especially since Salt Lake City's been urging people to do the same for decades now.

Regarding the book on the principles, i read as my classes went, and frankly, you might not realize, but for someone not well versed at all in LDS doctrine its not as clear cut i frankly needed someone to explain many parts, specially since i had little background even in mainstream christianity. And i need to clarify, my questions moslty arose during said classes, before and after meetings maybe i'd ask something, but 90% of my questions arose while reading such book, so in part yeah, i read it, thats where my questions came from.

Then you had a teacher who wasn't up to snuff, as a proper Gospel Principles teacher is supposed to drop everything to answer those questions that can be answered.

I actually taught that class for a little over a year, so I know how it works.

Yes, it once took me three weeks to get through one lesson because of how many questions I kept getting asked.
 
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gordonhooker

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Hello, first of all, for all my members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints, I want to say, I have NOTHING against y'all as people, I REPEAT, NOTHING. and also sorry for using "Mormon", I know the presidency has said to not use it, i will though, because its much easier to the full name, and also clearer. I wanna say that I'm not hateful in any way, and only want to learn more, and if i tell the local chappel who I truly am, they will inevitably hold stuff back, and not talk as openly, its only natural since i will be seen as an outsider.

To fellow non-mormon christians, i need an opinion:
This is my situation, I spent 8 months in a chappel, almost becoming a mormon before i knew much of the bible. I started reading the bible and came out, now I love researching and learning about apologetics and talk to members of the mormon church (I specially enjoy Jeff Durbin's apologetics videos and I've started doing something similar). However, I would really like to know more about how mormons truly believe, what they struggle with, and what they are confident in.

This is not some diabolical plan to use their weakness against them, but to better understand mormons as to not missrepresent them, and not waste time on trivial issues, really to be able to be on the same page, to understand what they mean when they talk.

Because of this, I have an opportunity, to go to a mormon chappel where no one except one person knows me (and knows nothing of my past or theology) and frankly, sit there, contribute in as much as its according to the bible, and simply, be a discreet mormon. I'm not gonna say i was baptized into the church, or lie really. my story is:

"I spent 8 months in a chappel, moved cities, and now i started comming here, i havent been baptized into the church, but want to learn more."
this is EXACTLY TRUE.

I already went to a meeting, and frankly I was myself, of course biting my lips not to talk about how the bible doesnt support becoming Gods or such, but stil. And when asked about my story, I was complety open and sincere, but vague enough as not to talk of what i currently believe other than "The Gospel of Jesus Christ" I felt good, i'm not being evil, I simply wanna understand better, but from a point of apologetics, and not a possible convert.
I dont think that what i'm doing is wrong, sitting in the back and really not talking much of theology but i still want a (few) second opinion(s) on the matter. and again, i'm simply not flat out open about it, since last time i did (when i was starting to become a convert) they would not tell me some stuff, like how mormons believe you can be Gods, or that they dont fully trust the bible (or in their words, they trust the bible in as much as its translated correctly which seems to be code for "doesnt contradict the BoM)

Anyways, thanks!!

If you are serious about researching the faith I would suggest you read deeply and widely on the differing views of those inside and outside of the LDS church, personally my look into it many years ago made me turn away from pursuing it any further but I was young and dipped my toe into all types of faith based systems.

I stumbled across book recently that I have since purchased from Amazon for the kindle it is about a family that were all very heavily involved in the church of LDS, the sons were missionaries the father was an teacher and a pastor and the mother was a professor at the LDS university. I watched a few reviews on youtube of the book and decided I would read it over the next month or so up to chapter 4 at the moment. Anyway the book is called Unveiling Grace: How we found our way out of the Mormon Church by Lynn K. Wilder.

I am sure that if you searched you would also find a book about how a family found its way into the Mormon Church so as I said research deep and wide.
 
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Ironhold

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by Lynn K. Wilder.

If that's who I think it was, there were some *very* significant red flags raised in her account, such as her claiming that a jewelry store had to keep their crosses hidden for fear of reprisal (BYU is open to people of all faiths, so one would think a jewelry store would be keen on keeping such merchandise handy).

Fact-check her and her accounts as well.
 
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gordonhooker

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If that's who I think it was, there were some *very* significant red flags raised in her account, such as her claiming that a jewelry store had to keep their crosses hidden for fear of reprisal (BYU is open to people of all faiths, so one would think a jewelry store would be keen on keeping such merchandise handy).

Fact-check her and her accounts as well.

If you had took the time to read my post you would have seen I suggesting the original poster read deeply and widely and I suggest here is a book and you would probably find one that the opposite. And I am not about to get into a discussion about the pro's and con's of the Church of LDS.
 
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Undercover_mormon

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If you are serious about researching the faith I would suggest you read deeply and widely on the differing views of those inside and outside of the LDS church, personally my look into it many years ago made me turn away from pursuing it any further but I was young and dipped my toe into all types of faith based systems.

I stumbled across book recently that I have since purchased from Amazon for the kindle it is about a family that were all very heavily involved in the church of LDS, the sons were missionaries the father was an teacher and a pastor and the mother was a professor at the LDS university. I watched a few reviews on youtube of the book and decided I would read it over the next month or so up to chapter 4 at the moment. Anyway the book is called Unveiling Grace: How we found our way out of the Mormon Church by Lynn K. Wilder.

I am sure that if you searched you would also find a book about how a family found its way into the Mormon Church so as I said research deep and wide.

been researching for a "Long time" now, almost 2 years of constant learning both in my faith including finishing the whole bible and having a deep grasp on what i believe, and also deep lerning of the LDS church as i truly feel a calling to minister to them, and its not only because i love to argue or such.. if so, I'd have an easier time with JWs since they are more open (no closed off temples for starters) and they regularly set up shop by the beach 1 block from my house and also close to my church. Yet I feel this burden for the LDS people. but now, I want to learn more while i was there, i didnt learn as much as i could... as some point out:

They should have been automatic.

for whatever reason, they never offered any missonary classes maybe they are doing stuff diferently here, remember, i'm not in the us, if you see my profile it clearly says argentina.

but because i didnt pay attention as i should have, now i feel i need to go back, learn from them and see how mormons live when among brothers... see what drives them, what makes them tick, which issues are big right now and which are non-issues. I guess also part of this comes from my background in biology as observing everything in its natural state its at the center of biology but even then, I really feel i need to learn more.

To give you an idea, I know its going to sound dumb, but after last weeks "first contact" where i went in, i realized something, their youth group, even if structured differently, is no different from my church's yourh group... and for sure, they might quote the books of Nephi or Mosiah instead of the bible... but it felt "normal" I know its stupid, but i honestly came in with the idea that because the church is much more structured and conservative, i would also find a more structured and conservative youth group... they even blew me out of the water when at the end bought pizza and played some cumbia! (10000% non christian music, but very trendy, like very club like music) This is dumb, but only shows how much i need to learn about them as people and not only their theology, because their culture does differ.. being mormon does mean being part of a different culture, so I really feel this need to "observe" and also, I dont want to go and sit as an outsider in every youth meeting, in every group and for them to know that i'm there not to convert, but to learn about them.. I dont know, it would feel weird having an atheist studying me while in church, so i'd rather go in, learn and at the precise moment leave as a mormon that left, and not as an outsider that fullfilled a mission even if true... I dont want to make that space weird or different for them either
 
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Undercover_mormon

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Wrong answer.

No its not. What i do or dont its between me and God, i published this not as a necessity to rationalize, but to see what others thought because i might have forgotten about a story of smth similar (which i did, samuel and the heifer) or a tip (someone recomended to let my church know so they can be praying, which is a must but that i already had thought of after speaking with them)

At the end of the day, some details have been ommited or slightly altered as to make it that even if a guy from my chappel were to stumble upon this thread, he wouldnt immediatly think of me.... is it easy to figure it out? yes, is it slightly harder than starting with "i'm xxxxxx from city yyyyyyy in chappel zzzz and this is my exact story" ? also yes. and this small details might be the ones setting your alarms off... while for example the interactions were 100% true, its also true that during my first day i declined what now i recognize were missonary classes (they told me if I wanted to have some missonaries go to my house and talk, at the time i didnt realize what it was, but very honestly i said i lived with my family and that i wasnt home most of the time, so i had to decline) but even then, when i started asking more questions months and months down the line, they could have asked again, which i would frankly said yes to. (even then, the tiptoeing around certain issues and dodging more exotic explanations at first is not justified)



Now. Thanks for you input, i doubt you will trust what i'm saying, which is fine, i created a fresh account so to speak freely in anonimity, if you dont want to believe me or if you want to blame a very naive me who denied what i thought was a friendly visit for a whole chruch dodging exotic issues and such, then go ahead. Anyways, will probably delete this soon, It has devolved into theological debate which i never meant to and also my conclusions have been drawn. from non mormon christians it seems to be pretty 50 50... some saying that mormon secretiveness justifies my own as a way to be able to preach, and that Samuel too in order to carry out his duty mislead guards, or that any kind of omitting information is bad and i should not (to which i respond : remember that Jesus only said he was the Son of God when he was asked in the Name of God to provide a direct answer, which lead him to the cross... not even close the danger and outcome, but its not unheard of)
 
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Undercover_mormon

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They should have been automatic.
in any case brother, May the one and true God, the God who is from everlasting to everlasting God, bless you and everyone aroud you, you have been very skeptical but polite, which i thank profusely.
 
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Jane_Doe

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in any case brother, May the one and true God, the God who is from everlasting to everlasting God, bless you and everyone aroud you, you have been very skeptical but polite, which i thank profusely.
UM, it doesn't make any sense that you were "never offered" the missionary lessons, especially if you were seriously considering baptism. It is international policy that all going-to-be-baptized adults take the missionary lessons over several weeks before being baptized. If you told me "I had to beat the missionaries off with a stick, the kept offering to teach me", I would believe you readily-- because that's LDS and missionary culture ESPECIALLY in South America. Saying "I was seriously looking at being baptized and attend the Gospel Principles class for months, be never saw the missionaries but in passing..." it just doesn't make any sense and leaves me with a lot of questions.
 
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DamianWarS

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...And that's the operative word.
correct, we must not go against the will of God but creatively entering a space where the gospel is corrupted so that it may be restored is a good cause. @Undercover_mormon should ensure he is called by God first to reach LDS, then he needs to ensure that is "undercover" platform is the right method to reach these people.

There is a lot of discussion on this within the Muslim world or areas of the word where the gospel is restricted. There are those who have done just this, gone into the country undercover such as entered a Muslim community, looking like a Muslim, praying alongside of them and participating in their festivities but not really telling people they are Christian (because no one asks), then once "they're in" they tell them about Jesus.

It's actually not a successful model and it tends to upset people rather than lead them to Christ. You may enter a space with a missional agenda but under a different platform like business or teaching but tell people you are a Christian or a follower of Jesus is a must from the onset. This can be creative too as some people when they hear "Christian" and interpret it as something else like what they see in the movies so being identified through Christ first may take on some creative titles.

In Samuel's case he was a prophet and so it was normal for him to come to make a sacrifice but he also carried a divine mission that he did not let others know. Samuel didn't need to say he was a follower of the most high God because he was already an insider and everyone carried the same faith.

With LDS it's complicated because they follow Christ too so you may call yourself a Christian or follower of Christ and this is a term they too can identify with. Perhaps with @Undercover_mormon's case he should come saying he is a seeker of Christ and wishes to follow him above all other things without affirming LDS doctrine but if people assume this is under a LDS context then I'm fearful it will not be well received and it will take a very specific person to be able to reach people through that context and it might not be very effective nor a novice.

I would say it would be better to move to a dominate LDS residential neighbourhood and tell people you are not an LDS but love Christ and follow him above all else, then develop relationships with them, pray with them, celebrate with them and use this to show the gospel. This way there is no deception because people already know who you are but you still can develop friendships for the purpose of showing them authentic faith in Christ.
 
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gordonhooker

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UM, it doesn't make any sense that you were "never offered" the missionary lessons, especially if you were seriously considering baptism. It is international policy that all going-to-be-baptized adults take the missionary lessons over several weeks before being baptized. If you told me "I had to beat the missionaries off with a stick, the kept offering to teach me", I would believe you readily-- because that's LDS and missionary culture ESPECIALLY in South America. Saying "I was seriously looking at being baptized and attend the Gospel Principles class for months, be never saw the missionaries but in passing..." it just doesn't make any sense and leaves me with a lot of questions.

Yikes you really beat off missionaries with sticks.... Whodafunk dat? :D
 
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mmksparbud

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If I was to take the material I was given for that one 500-level finance course and drop it in the lap of someone who had never had a finance class before, would I be able to reasonably expect that they could complete everything I personally would have been required to do?

Ask yourself that, and you'll have your answer.

And what would you give to one that has a 300 level course--or a 450 level finance course? The question isn't what to give to someone who needs milk, but what to give to someone who already has ground beef and wants steak.
 
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Undercover_mormon

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UM, it doesn't make any sense that you were "never offered" the missionary lessons, especially if you were seriously considering baptism. It is international policy that all going-to-be-baptized adults take the missionary lessons over several weeks before being baptized. If you told me "I had to beat the missionaries off with a stick, the kept offering to teach me", I would believe you readily-- because that's LDS and missionary culture ESPECIALLY in South America. Saying "I was seriously looking at being baptized and attend the Gospel Principles class for months, be never saw the missionaries but in passing..." it just doesn't make any sense and leaves me with a lot of questions.

Jane, When i said i was close to baptism i wasnt refering to being weeks away, i hadnt talked much with anyone, but by the rate at which i was going, 2 months more and i would have definetly sought to start the process for baptism. I was close in the sense that I was more mormon than not, although not yet calling myself one. Even when i left and my gf left me and all of that, I thought of going back, thinking maybe to give it a second chance maybe praying harder... , thats how close i was, but i was still some time away from beginning THE PROCESS but in my mind i was already thinking of it as a possibility
 
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Undercover_mormon

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correct, we must not go against the will of God but creatively entering a space where the gospel is corrupted so that it may be restored is a good cause. @Undercover_mormon should ensure he is called by God first to reach LDS, then he needs to ensure that is "undercover" platform is the right method to reach these people.

There is a lot of discussion on this within the Muslim world or areas of the word where the gospel is restricted. There are those who have done just this, gone into the country undercover such as entered a Muslim community, looking like a Muslim, praying alongside of them and participating in their festivities but not really telling people they are Christian (because no one asks), then once "they're in" they tell them about Jesus.

It's actually not a successful model and it tends to upset people rather than lead them to Christ. You may enter a space with a missional agenda but under a different platform like business or teaching but tell people you are a Christian or a follower of Jesus is a must from the onset. This can be creative too as some people when they hear "Christian" and interpret it as something else like what they see in the movies so being identified through Christ first may take on some creative titles.

In Samuel's case he was a prophet and so it was normal for him to come to make a sacrifice but he also carried a divine mission that he did not let others know. Samuel didn't need to say he was a follower of the most high God because he was already an insider and everyone carried the same faith.

With LDS it's complicated because they follow Christ too so you may call yourself a Christian or follower of Christ and this is a term they too can identify with. Perhaps with @Undercover_mormon's case he should come saying he is a seeker of Christ and wishes to follow him above all other things without affirming LDS doctrine but if people assume this is under a LDS context then I'm fearful it will not be well received and it will take a very specific person to be able to reach people through that context and it might not be very effective nor a novice.

I would say it would be better to move to a dominate LDS residential neighbourhood and tell people you are not an LDS but love Christ and follow him above all else, then develop relationships with them, pray with them, celebrate with them and use this to show the gospel. This way there is no deception because people already know who you are but you still can develop friendships for the purpose of showing them authentic faith in Christ.


the moving thing would be great, except there are no mainly mormon neighborhoods that i know off, plus here i live in a developed city, so neighborhoods arent exacly tight knit.
Also, i'm in university so its not really an option to be moving around.

My focus is not to reach people inside the church, but rather, attend, learn, and thus, understand mormons. To have a better picture of what a mormon cares about, what does he mean when he says "Holy father" what does he mean when he says x or y and so on. Then, with that knowledge in had, be able to better engage mormons be it in the street, among friends, or outside the temple or chappel. Also, for the people i will inevitably become friends to, I will at its time, start talking about the issues and minister to them in a subtle way as i start to show the problems i have, basically "Starting to doubt" and finally leaving the church, while in the process ministering to friends there as an equal.

I wont say "I'm LDS" but rather "I'm a christian, who spent this time back in 2016 in this city attending the chappel back there and who didnt get to be baptized, and now i'm back to keep learning."
 
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Jane_Doe

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Jane, When i said i was close to baptism i wasnt refering to being weeks away, i hadnt talked much with anyone, but by the rate at which i was going, 2 months more and i would have definetly sought to start the process for baptism. I was close in the sense that I was more mormon than not, although not yet calling myself one. Even when i left and my gf left me and all of that, I thought of going back, thinking maybe to give it a second chance maybe praying harder... , thats how close i was, but i was still some time away from beginning THE PROCESS but in my mind i was already thinking of it as a possibility
For starters, I'm sorry you had a bad break up. Those suck.

I'm just trying to make sense of your story here, which is... with all due respect there's a lot not making sense.
 
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Undercover_mormon

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For starters, I'm sorry you had a bad break up. Those suck.

I'm just trying to make sense of your story here, which is... with all due respect there's a lot not making sense.

As i said earlier, some details are missing out and some are slightly changed for privacy concerns. if one of the guys at my chappel happens to come across with this i dont want him saying "wait... the new guy had the exact same story! he must be the undercover guy!" as my country is already visible, so that might be muddying up the story, and i'm sorry for it, but i wont stop doing so for privacy.

the core of the idea is I arrived at the chappel after having had close to a month of introduction to mormonism 101 by my gf, her main points were the first vision, and how the church fell away, why Joseph was a true prophet and some history of the church, also some cultural stuff, like activities, and the structure, what was the BoM, D&C and so on, also some about the pre existance but not much, i didnt know much of christanity so it seemed odd, but hey, i knew nothing, for all i knew the pre existance could be a very normal and established thing.
Be mindful, we were in a relationship, so its not like we spent all day talking doctrine, but rather regular old dating stuff.
First day, all goes well, and I'm approached by 2 gals from the US, they offered me to be visited by missonaries and sit down for a talk, i thought they ment like a "welcome to the gang, lets hang out!" and frankly, i declined bc of living with my parents, not being home all that often and so on, fast forwards 4 months later, they are still tiptoeing, when talking about exaltation, they would never refer to it as such, but as "getting to be in the celestian kingdom" or "reaching the third degree of glory" I was given by my gf a book on the principles of the scripture, and in class, i would question some of it but i would be met with responses that today i wouldnt accept as they are out of context or not supported by the bible, but at the time i didnt know much better, so it seemed off but alright, keep going.

4 months after that, they dropped that round about language and by the time i was leaving. they were at that time openly talking about the preexistance in more detail, about temple ordinances, about baptism for the dead, how the BoM says salvation is faith + works, about sealing in the temple and so on...

Thats the short story, I then leave, my best friend tells me my gf is spewing bs about me cheating and how my gf did actually cheat, later we break up, and even later my "best friend" turn and denies such claims once i finally leave the church for good and my "best friend" in turn gets baptized into the church (she entered the church about 4 months before), also, as i begun leaving and finally left for good, "friends" started not replying to messeges and finally ignorning me.

if you wanna know a little bit more detail, PM me and i can provide some, but the gist is, I experienced that way of hiding some stuff from the outsider at first, and while the lessons by the missonaries could have gotten me up to speed fairly quickly, i dont think any church should hide its beliefs and let a few do all the work, I also experienced the shunning afterwards
 
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Undercover_mormon

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For starters, I'm sorry you had a bad break up. Those suck.

I'm just trying to make sense of your story here, which is... with all due respect there's a lot not making sense.
Regarding the break up... man, it had me [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed up... like fr, It had me praying for God to allow me to believe in the BoM so i could stay with her as otherwise we were fairly compatible and our only real issue was religion lol .. but oh well, that was almost 2 years ago already, so i'm over it... but damn it hit hard at the moment
 
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...In other words, he's condemning "Once Saved, Always Saved".

You see, it's been my unfortunate personal experience that the louder a member of a mainstream Christian faith is in establishing their status as a "good Christian", the less likely they are to actually be living in a fashion that reflects God's light. If they also profess OSAS, then all bets are off as to the level of debauchery their existence entails.

...And for one reason or another, the Christian Counter-Cult Movement seems to be a rather popular place for these people to hang out.

You see, in the 1970s it was a big thing for critics of the church to cite themselves as their credentials for everything. But then Walter Martin, who at the time was one of the leaders, opened his mouth up and declared that when dealing with a member of a "cult" the person themself was as much fair game as their beliefs.

In response, in the 1980s husband and wife team Robert & Rosemary Brown did a background check on D. J. Nelson, a critic of the church who claimed to have a doctoral degree in Egyptology. No dice. Nelson's degree came from a diploma mill, and none of the people he claimed to have done work for admitted to knowing him. When the Browns published their findings, Nelson's career collapsed.

Since then, it's pretty much been a re-enactment of the Marianas Turkey Shoot. Members of the Christian Counter-Cult have been outed for everything from openly lying about their histories with whatever "cult" they were arguing against to full-on sex crimes. This includes another anti-Mormon author, Loftes Tryk, who went out of his way to hide the fact that he was a convicted sex offender; he wasn't "saved" out of the church so much as he was excommunicated upon being convicted for his crime.

I've been doing apologetics work for almost 20 years now, and I can tell you from personal experience that these aforementioned individuals are not anomalies; some of the worst people I've dealt with, in person and online, were self-avowed "Good Christians". This included a minister whose hobbies included writing dirty limericks about religious figures he didn't like.



A decade or so back, while researching out such claims being made against church leaders I found an anti-Christian site that had something to say about it.

Specifically, they had a chart going.

Column A was a statement from Joseph Smith that wColumn C was a statement from infamous anti-Mormon pundit J. Edward Decker condemning the former but ignoring the latter.

I want to respont to the OSAS idea... i dont think James was attacking OSAS, but rather those who claim christianity yet dont know Jesus and therefore, their hearts havent been changed.

Jesus himself states that there will be people who claimed "Lord Lord, didnt we prophecised in your name and made great signs" yet Jesus will send them away never having known them. This could be the case of many sunday christians, or for an even simpler to grasp example, a rapper who has crosses and professes to know Jesus and to believe, yet lives in sin like if nothing had happen... Thats what James was critiquing in my opinion... fake christianity...

once that heart has been changed, you cant really go back. I have never heard of someone who had an encounter with Jesus, who changed for real, and that later left it.. i know plenty stories of people growing up in the church being on fire for Jesus, and when they arrived to college, girls, drugs, and alcohol were more enticing and they left that seems exactyl what James warns against those chrsitians who claim to know God and Jesus yet walk out and deny him with their lives. It makes sense, if you never knew Christ, then you never had the spirit, and thus Satan was able to steal you away, but once you do get to know Christ, and do get the spirit, then God Himself is dwelling in you, sure the flesh is weak, but even then, your mind, your soul longs for a sinnless existance, sin becomes a burden, something you feel bad about and that you try quitting, sometimes doing 5 steps forwards and one back, and sometimes doing 10 backs and 1 forwards, but overall, always moving to christ. At that point, the Power of God is in you, and Satan Cant defeat that... he can defeat our flesh, he can tempt us, but each time, we become even harder to tempt again, we become more sicken of our sin..

in my own case... i fought a very specific sin for a long time now... sometimes going long times doing good, and then long times of remisson, but overall, i always am moving in the right direction.
 
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