One of the most controversial issues, is the DAY OF WORSHIP

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ace of hearts

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Not trying to be rude---that's ridiculous! You seem to be simply going out of your way to be obtuse!
We are saved by grace---we keep the commandments our of love for God.
we keep them because we are saved, not to be saved. If you can't fathom that--sorry.
Come judgment day---I'd rather have God tell, me---"Well, you really didn't have to keep that fourth one."---instead of--"What part of "remember" didn't you understand?"

I suppose every time you don't steal, commit murder, commit adultry or lie you are dropping coins into your salvation machine.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Not so. Do you read the sabbath and law part of the forum?
 
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ace of hearts

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At this point---all I can say is "Are you must be trolling??"---You don't know how adultery in a marriage is possible??? Ask any 10 year old. Nowadays---they are all pretty well acquainted with it.
Adultery is committed with someone outside of marriage.
 
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ace of hearts

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You are taking that out of context-----God wrote the 10 again--Exo 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
Please tell us how the quote was taken out of context.
 
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ace of hearts

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OK---You guys seem to just want to disagree with whatever an SDA says regardless of what is said---you are twisting things around. I never said the Holy Spirit led the Mormons astray--the Holy Spirit doesn't do that. I say we are saved by grace and you say I said we are saved by works because I choose to follow what the bible says instead of what the Catholic church instituted. I don't expect you to understand--we can't even agree on creation. You church teaches evolution, I believe in a 6 day creation. We are polar opposites.
I don't expect others to think as I do---I know they don't! To say you are a "Sabbatarian" is bad enough, add SDA to your profile and its a sure thing no one is going to agree with you!
OK--we are getting nowhere--I will leave it at this---show me the verse that states Jesus said to change Sabbath to Sunday. That is all I am asking for. Other than that---nothing left to say. You can't seem to understand the concept of Jesus working through us with His love to keep all His ways (not just what is convenient for us) so there is no sense in continuing to try. You go by your Holy Spirit and I will go with mine and soon enough we will both find out. God bless---I won't hold my breath waiting for that verse---no one has ever found it.
You need to show any passage in the NT saying there's an obligation to the sabbath.
 
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ace of hearts

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Yes, as I said the Ten Commandments are God's "my covenant" (Exodus 19:5), but they are not called the 'old covenant', which Hebrews 8:6-9 identifies as those words in Exodus 19:8, "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do.", being the "promises" of "them" which were at "fault".

The Ten Commandments are never faulty. They are "sure", and stand fast for ever and ever (Psalms 111:7, 119:44).

I said there are many "covenants" in scripture, and that the issue is men applying their own definitions upon each.

You are eisigetically reading into the text of Exodus 34:28 'old covenant', but the context and words are not present to support that, at all.

Also, this whole route is merely to confuse the issue of the sabbath of God. Instead of speaking about the 7th Day, the 4th Commandment, the issue is suddenly bait and switched to 'covenants'. The 7th Day the sabbath of the LORD thy God, is from Genesis 2:1-3, before there ever was an 'old covenant' (Exodus 19:8; Hebrews 8:6-9) to speak of. It, the 7th day the sabbath (rest) of the LORD God, was made for man (Adam, 1st and 2nd/last), Mark 2:27-28 (see also Ecclesiastes 12:13-14; 'whole duty of man (Adam)').
Jeremiah does by saying that covenant would be replaced by a new covenant. The simple truth is that means there's an old (previous) covenant.
 
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liberty of conscience

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Verse 24 is a great verse. I take the "sayings of mine are those" of Jesus.

Joh_8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Joh_12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Joh_12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
 
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Dkh587

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While I don't agree that new covenant Christians are obligated to observe old covenant sabbath as a day of the week, I *do* agree that the first day of the week is not the same as the seventh day sabbath. Christians are celebrating the day of the Lord's resurrection on the first day of the week, not observing the sabbath. The argument from people in this thread is that Constantine/Roman Catholic Church moved the sabbath to the first day of the week and that's simply not true. The old covenant sabbath has always been on the seventh day of the week and still is today.
The commandment is clear: keep the 7th day set-apart.

New covenant Christians, even though that term does not exist in the Bible, “old” or “new” testament, are not instructed by Jesus or the Apostles to disobey and disregard God’s commands.
 
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gordonhooker

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The commandment is clear: keep the 7th day set-apart.

New covenant Christians, even though that term does not exist in the Bible, “old” or “new” testament, are not instructed by Jesus or the Apostles to disobey and disregard God’s commands.

Well there you go everybody we have been told..... :D
 
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liberty of conscience

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News to me. Would you mind posting some specific passages? ...

You mean you need verses where in Jesus is leading the people out of Egypt into the Promised land?

Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

The same Personage who stood before Moses: Exodus 3:5-6;

Exo 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
Exo 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

It is mentioned in Acts:

Act 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
Act 7:31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,
Act 7:32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.
Act 7:33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.
Act 7:34 I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt.

Even the NT says so:

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Compare to the OT:

Deu_32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

Again:

Neh 9:9 And didst see the affliction of our fathers in Egypt, and heardest their cry by the Red sea;

(Exo 3:7 And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;)

Neh 9:10 And shewedst signs and wonders upon Pharaoh, and on all his servants, and on all the people of his land: for thou knewest that they dealt proudly against them. So didst thou get thee a name, as it is this day.
Neh 9:11 And thou didst divide the sea before them, so that they went through the midst of the sea on the dry land; and their persecutors thou threwest into the deeps, as a stone into the mighty waters.
Neh 9:12 Moreover thou leddest them in the day by a cloudy pillar; and in the night by a pillar of fire, to give them light in the way wherein they should go.
Neh 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
Neh 9:14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

Psa 77:16 The waters saw thee, O God, the waters saw thee; they were afraid: the depths also were troubled.
Psa 77:17 The clouds poured out water: the skies sent out a sound: thine arrows also went abroad.
Psa 77:18 The voice of thy thunder was in the heaven: the lightnings lightened the world: the earth trembled and shook.
Psa 77:19 Thy way is in the sea, and thy path in the great waters, and thy footsteps are not known.
Psa 77:20 Thou leddest thy people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron.

Exo_14:24 And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians,

Consider that these verses are dualistic, speaking of Joshua the son of Nun (perpetual/eternal) and Jesus the son of God the Father, the Eternal:

Act_7:45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;

Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

For it was truly Jesus who led Joshua and the peoples into the promised land as we have seen in Joshua 5.

Isa_63:9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

The "angel" (office, not meaning nature (ie not Created)) is Jesus Christ, the Highest messenger of the Father's love, and everywhere the Son is, it is as the presence of God the Father (see Gal. 4:14, etc).

The Bible says:

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him (the Word); and without him (the Word) was not any thing made that was made.

Thus, it was Jesus who made the Tables of Stone:

Exo_32:16 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.
 
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mmksparbud

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You need to show any passage in the NT saying there's an obligation to the sabbath.

No, I do not---what I need and everyone else--is a passage in the NT that states "we do not need to keep the Sabbath anymore"-- otherwise, it stands as God commanded--that is all I am going to say.
 
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Dkh587

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No, I do not---what I need and everyone else--is a passage in the NT that states "we do not need to keep the Sabbath anymore"-- otherwise, it stands as God commanded--that is all I am going to say.
That’s exactly right. Only the devil challenges what God has spoken and attempts to diminish & destroy it.
 
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liberty of conscience

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... The verse you posted doesn't mean Jesus was on the scene at Mount Sinai.
Actually it does since it is His church that was at Mt. Sinai. However, I also provided as many other texts, and here is another:

Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

Exo 24:11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Jesus upon the mountain (Sinai), and a meal with the Elders. (OT)

Jesus upon the mountain (Moriah), and meal with the Apostles. (NT)

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and for ever.

When Jesus came the law was over.

No. Isaiah 42:21.

Gal 3:19.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Sin is the transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4), which means the 10C existed before Mt. Sinai, since there was there a law "added" "because of transgressions". Read Exodus to Deuteronomy and all kinds of laws were "added" to the Ten Commandments, and why? because people were transgressing God's law, and so more law was given in every detail. They did not understand the full broad and depth of the Law of God (10C); Psa. 119:96.

The Ten Commandments did not 'end'. That's blasphemous. That would effectively end God's own character; Exodus 33:12-23, 34:1-9, 20:5-6. Merciful (Mercy) and by no means clearing the guilty (Just).

The "seed" was the promise (Gen. 3:15; Gal. 3:16) pointing to Christ Jesus. Thus all the shadows were no longer needed as shadows.

Galatians ties into Colossians 2, Ephesians 2 and Hebrews 9-10.

The shadow things came to an end, because of the reality of Christ Jesus (the real Lamb). The Law of God, the 10C, are always "light", never shadow; Proverbs 6:23; Isaiah 8:20, etc. They are eternal (Psa. 119:44), permanent (Psa. 111:7), never temporary.

Moses brought the law, not Jesus.
That is a misunderstanding of "law". You are eisegeting the text with what you want it to say.

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

What "law" was given my Moses? not the 10C, as that was spoken by God Himself from Heaven:

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,

Exodus 20:2-17 (10 Commandments)


Exo_20:22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

The Law of God (10C), was given by Jesus Christ:

Psa_119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

Psa 119:151 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.

Notice, John 1:17, who did "grace" and "truth" come by? Moses or Jesus?

The Ten Commandments begin with Grace:

Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

The 10 Commandments are Truth (Psalms 119:142,151; etc)

The "law" which came by Moses was the hand written laws that Moses was mediator of:

Lev_6:9 Command Aaron and his sons, saying, This is the law of the burnt offering: It is the burnt offering, because of the burning upon the altar all night unto the morning, and the fire of the altar shall be burning in it.

Lev_6:14 And this is the law of the meat offering: the sons of Aaron shall offer it before the LORD, before the altar.

Lev_14:32 This is the law of him in whom is the plague of leprosy, whose hand is not able to get that which pertaineth to his cleansing.

Num_6:21 This is the law of the Nazarite who hath vowed, and of his offering unto the LORD for his separation, beside that that his hand shall get: according to the vow which he vowed, so he must do after the law of his separation.

Jos_23:6 Be ye therefore very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses, that ye turn not aside therefrom to the right hand or to the left;

etc.

I didn't God didn't give the law to Israel through Moses.

I do not know what you were saying here.
 
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liberty of conscience

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You need to show any passage in the NT saying there's an obligation to the sabbath.
Hebrews 3-4 (among many others; John 14:15; Exodus 20:6; Isaiah 56:1,8; John 10:16; Isaiah 56:2-7, Acts 4:24, 14:15; Revelation 10:6, 14:6-7, &c). - There's even a whole thread and study on it - Hebrews 3-4 [KJB], the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD JEHOVAH - "my rest" "remaineth" to My people.

Hebrews 3-4 is clear.

Hebrews 4:3, "my (God's) rest" and "the works were finished from the foundation of the world", which is a direct reference to Genesis 2:1-3. It even uses the word "finished". God rested the 7th day in Genesis 2:1-3. It is His rest, the 7th day, the sabbath (rest) of the LORD thy God, Exodus 20:8-11.

Hebrews 4:4, "he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works", which "certain place" is Genesis 2:1-3; re-cited in Exodus 20:8-11. The 7th day the sabbath (rest) of the LORD thy God.

Hebrews 4:5, "my (God's) rest)", citing Psalms 95, which is citing Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11, etc. Again, this is the 7th day the sabbath (rest) of God at Creation in Genesis 2:1-3.

Hebrews 4:6, "remaineth", from when? "from the foundation of the world" as per Hebrews 4:3 and thus it is not new, but has been around from the beginning.

Hebrews 4:9, "rest", sabbatismos, literally and truly sabbath keeping in scripture and in all known extant Greek sources, dictionaries, and so on and again "remaineth".

Hebrews 4:10, "his (God's) rest", which is the 7th day the sabbath (rest) of the LORD thy God from Genesis 2:1-3., "as God did from his (works)", which "works were finished from the foundation of the world" as per Hebrews 4:3.

Hebrews 4:11, "that rest" (ie God's rest), the 7th day the sabbath (rest) of the LORD thy God.

You may of course disagree, as is your prerogative, but that is no evidence of being correct, nor of being defensible from (or foundational upon) scripture itself.
 
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klutedavid

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You mean like footwashing (do you do this?):

Joh_13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

What do you understand the "new covenant" to be?

The "new" everlasting/eternal covenant existed even in eternity (“the everlasting covenant” or the covenant of life and peace, or the counsel of peace, ratified by the blood of the Son of God Himself and by the Father in Heaven, see Psalms 89:3,28,34, 105:8; Isaiah 13:12, 42:6; Malachi 2:5 [Jesus is the True Levi, meaning attached unto His Father], 3:1; John 19:30 [he finished laying the foundation, the words were unto His Father], 17:24 [the agreement in eternity past was made, Jesus kept His word, performed His vows, and now the promise from the Father was to be fulfilled]; John 3:16; John 19:28; Hebrews 13:20; Revelation 13:8; Psalms 40:7-8; Hebrews 10:7-9; Psalms 116:14-18; Ezekiel 38:23; John 17:19; John 10:18; 8:28; Psalms 110:4; Zechariah 6:13, etc), and thus was before the 'old' covenant, though it was ratified later (by the blood of Christ Jesus at Calvary, though promised from Genesis 3), and thus the 'old' was called 'first' (since that blood was shed at Sinai and ratified there).

The Commandments of God are the same (one lawgiver; James 4:12), they are eternal, unchanging as God is unchanging in character. Love to God and man is found in Deuteronomy 6:1-5; Leviticus 19:17-18, in the context of sin and the Ten Commandments (Deuteronomy 5), which is where Jesus, Paul and John were quoting from.

John 14:15; Exodus 20:6. Jeremiah 31:31-34 ("my law"); Hebrews 8:8-13, 10:16; Ezekiel 36:25-29, 37:26-28; 2 Corinthians 3:3, etc.

Lord's supper (in its seasons):

1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1Co_11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Going into all the world:

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

etc. fall under the Ten Commandments, such as Honouring our Father.
You seem to be getting very serious here.

Is Jesus really concerned about dirty feet?

1 Corinthians 9:9-10
For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing.” God is not concerned about oxen, is He? Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops.

Is God really worried about a hungry ox or someone's unwashed feet?

The Old Testament is the shadow that contains it's fulfillment in Christ.

Do I then say Lord, Lord, and then go out and misbehave (lawlessness) myself?

I do not wash people's literal feet, I always look for the spiritual meaning of every verse!

The verse about washing feet was the master washing the disciple's feet. Jesus did not arrive as the big boss, but as a humble servant. We do likewise, everyone else is considered first, more important than we are.
 
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liberty of conscience

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Jeremiah does by saying that covenant would be replaced by a new covenant. The simple truth is that means there's an old (previous) covenant.

That is not in contention in the least. Not one bit.

There is not argument that there is an 'old' and a 'new' covenant. In fact, I said there was, from scripture, on numerous occasions.

The disagreement is in the definition of 'old covenant' and 'new covenant'.

You assert that the 10 Commandments are the 'old covenant', but there is not a single scripture to state this, explicitly or implicitly. It is simply eisegeted.

I have shown, numerous times, from scripture, that the Ten Commandments are the eternal Covenant that existed from eternity. They are called God's "my covenant", or "His covenant". This is not the 'old covenant'.

In Exodus 19 there are two covenants mentioned.

[1] God's (10C, "my covenant"), Exodus 19:5, which are all perfect (Psalms 19:7) promises (Ephesians 6:2) and would never be altered or done away with (Psalms 89:34, 111:7-8.).

[2] the 'old' covenant, "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do.", with a Mediator Moses, based upon the "If", "then" condition set by God, Exodus 19:8. This is mentioned directly in Hebrews 8:6-9, "fault", "promises", "them".

The problem is, your eisegetical methods wherein everytime you read "covenant" surrounding Mt Sinai, you automatically substitute mentally (10C). That is the error and disagreement.

Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:8-13, 10:16, etc, state that God would write His law ("my law"; in context is the Ten Commandments, not only in Jeremiah, but all through scripture) upon the hearts.

2 Cor 3:3 states that it is the same law, same author, differing ministration, differing location, differing mediator.

The simple truth is that the 'old covenant' is not and cannot be the 10C (unless scripture be broken and it cannot be; John 10:35) as per Romans 3:31; Jeremiah 31:33, etc. Go ahead and substitute 'old covenant' with the word "the law" and "my law" there. You will see scripture broken.

Your present apriori is the issue. Not that there is an 'old covenant' and a 'new/everlasting/eternal covenant'.
 
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You seem to be getting very serious here.

Is Jesus really concerned about dirty feet?
It is a very serious matter to play word games with God as you are presently doing.

Jesus gave a commandment, and is concerned about real love, which is obedience to His literal commandment.

Real service to God and man, is to obey the commandment. Yes, I wash the other disciples feet (this is not to boast, this is to state I comply with what Jesus asked.)

Joh_13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

It is very clear. He is my Master and Lord.

Joh 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

Do I then say Lord, Lord, and then go out and misbehave (lawlessness) myself?

I do not wash people's literal feet, I always look for the spiritual meaning of every verse!...

Yes, you disobey God and do your own thing and make up what you 'think' it means (private interpretation and thus you spiritualize it away, and you might as well spiritualize away baptism in water also). It is self-righteousness.

Jesus said, "wash one another's feet". It is in comparison to Jesus actually washing their feet.

Jesus, through us, washes the feet of the other.

Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Joh 13:17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

Therefore if you do not do it, and do not allow others to wash you, you are in great danger:

Joh 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
 
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bekkilyn

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The commandment is clear: keep the 7th day set-apart.

New covenant Christians, even though that term does not exist in the Bible, “old” or “new” testament, are not instructed by Jesus or the Apostles to disobey and disregard God’s commands.

Still waiting to know where in the new testament is the verse where Jesus (or even anyone else) commands non-Jewish Christians to observe a seventh day sabbath.

The seventh day sabbath command was made to a very specific people...the nation of Israel and to their descendants (not their ancestors as was specified very clearly by Moses when he addressed those assembled to hear him. There is no such thing as disregarding a command that was never given to you in the first place.
 
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