One of the most controversial issues, is the DAY OF WORSHIP

klutedavid said:

You need to support your claims with historical evidence. Here is another baseless claim.

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It is not baseless. It is that a person amongst us, is simply ignorant of the sources/claims for it. I will let all decide who that person is after this response.

klutedavid said:

The church in Rome had nothing to do with moving the Sabbath to Sunday.

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They say that they did.

See:

"... Now in the matter of Sabbath observance the Protestant rule of Faith is utterly unable to explain the substitution of the Christian Sunday for the Jewish Saturday. It has been changed. The Bible still teaches that the Sabbath or Saturday should be kept holy. There is no authority in the New Testament for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday. Surely it is an important matter. It stands there in the Bible as one of the Ten Commandments of God. There is no authority in the Bible for abrogating this Commandment, or for transferring its observance to another day of the week.

For Catholics it is not the slightest difficulty. "All power is given Me in heaven and on earth; as the Father sent Me so I also send you," said our Divine Lord in giving His tremendous commission to His Apostles. "He that heareth you heareth Me." We have in the authoritative voice of the Church the voice of Christ Himself. The Church is above the Bible; and this transference of Sabbath observance from Saturday to Sunday is proof positive of that fact (1). Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday ..."

(1.) The Catholic Record of London, Saturday, September 1st, 1923 edition, Ontario, Canada, Volume XLV, #2342, appearing on page 4, section "Sabbath Observance", Column 2, -- Editor -- Rev. James T. Foley, D.D. ... The CATHOLIC RECORD has been approved and recommended by Archbishops Falconio and Sbaretti, late Apostolic Delegates to Canada, the Archbishops of Toronto, Kingston, Ottawa, and St. Boniface, the Bishops of London, Hamilton, Peterborough and Ogdensburg, N.Y., and the Clergy throughout the Dominion.", Column 1 - The Catholic Record, Sept. 1, 1923.

http://biblelight.net/Sources/Catholic-Record-6-shade.gif



Another:

Latin:

"... Similiter et feriae a fando dicuntur, ob quam causam Silvester papa primus apud Romanos constituit ut dierum nomina quae antea secundum nomina deorum suorum vocabant, id est, Solis, Lunae, Martis, Mercurii, Veneris, Saturni, feria deinceps vocarent, id est, prima feria, secunda feria, tertia feria, quarta feria, quinta feria, sexta feria, quia in principio Genesis scriptum est quod Deus per singulos dies dixerit : prima, Fiat Lux; secunda, Fiat firmamentum; tertia, Producat terra herbam virentem, similiter, etc. Sabbatum autem antiquo legis vocabulo vocare praecepit, et primam feriam diem Dominicam, eo quod Dominus in illa resurrexit. Statuit autem idem papa ut otium sabbati magis in diem Dominicam transferretur, ut ea die a terrenis operibus ad laudandum Deum vacaremus, justa illud quod scriptum est : Vacate et videte, quoniam ego sum Deus (Psal. XLV). ..." - Beati Rabani Mauri, Fuldensis Abbatis et Moguntini Archiepiscopi, de Clericorum Institutione, ad Heistulphum Archiepiscopum; Libri Tres. (Anno 819.) Ad Fratres Fuldenses Epigramma Ejusdem; Liber Secundus, Caput XLVI. Column 361 (Left; PDF page 35) - http://www.documentacatholicaomnia....eistulphum_Archiepiscopum_Libri_Tres,_MLT.pdf

"... The decree by Pope Sylvester I to call the days of the week feria was issued in the year 316 A.D. according to Medii ævi Kalendarium Or, Dates, Charters, and Customs of the Middle Ages, Volume Two, by Robert Thomas Hampson, published in London by H. K. Causten, 1841, entry on Day, page 66, and Feria, pages 137, 138. ..." - Exactly Which Pope Changed The Sabbath To Sunday?

"... Pope Sylvester I (also Silvester, died 31 December 335), was Pope of the Catholic Church from 314 to his death in 335. ..." - Pope Sylvester I - Wikipedia

Translated English (of the Latin above):

"... Pope Sylvester first among the Romans ordered that the names of the days [of the week], which they previously called after the name of their gods, that is, [the day] of the Sun, [the day] of the Moon, [the day] of Mars, [the day] of Mercury, [the day] of Jupiter, [the day] of Venus, [the day] of Saturn, they should call feriae thereafter, that is the first feria, the second feria, the third feria, the fourth feria, the fifth feria, the sixth feria, because that in the beginning of Genesis it is written that God said concerning each day: on the first, "Let there be light:; on the second, "Let there be a firmament"; on the third, "Let the earth bring forth verdure"; etc. But he [Sylvester] ordered [them] to call the Sabbath by the ancient term of the law, [to call] the first feria the "Lord's day," because on it the Lord rose [from the dead], Moreover, the same pope decreed that the rest of the Sabbath should be transferred rather to the Lord's day [Sunday], in order that on that day we should rest from worldly works for the praise of God.7 ..." - Exactly Which Pope Changed The Sabbath To Sunday?

Further:

“...yet we find St. Cæsarius of Arles in the sixth century teaching that the holy Doctors of the Church had decreed that the whole glory of the Jewish Sabbath had been transferred to the Sunday, and that Christians must keep the Sunday holy in the same way as the Jews had been commanded to keep holy the Sabbath Day. … From the eight century the law began to be formulated as it exists at the present day, and the local councils forbade servile work, public buying and selling, pleading in the law courts, and the public and solemn taking of oaths. There is a large body of civil legislation on the Sunday rest side by side with the ecclesiastical. ...” [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Sunday] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sunday

“... Jesus exercised his sovereign power to abrogate the sabbath law in at least some way. … The sabbath command is the only one of the Ten Commandments which can be altered in any way, because only it is a part of the ceremonial law. This is taught by the Roman Catechism issued after the Council of Trent:

The other commandments of the Decalogue are precepts of the natural law, obligatory at all times and unalterable. Hence, after the abrogation of the Law of Moses, all the Commandments contained in the two tables are observed by Christians, not indeed because their observance is commanded by Moses, but because they are in conformity with nature which dictates obedience to them.

This Commandment about the observance of the sabbath, on the other hand, considered as to the time appointed for its fulfillment, is not fixed and unalterable, but susceptible of change and belongs not to the moral, but the ceremonial law. Neither is it a principle of the natural law; we are not instructed by nature to give external worship to God on that day, rather than on any other. And in fact the sabbath was kept holy only from the time of Israel from the bondage of Pharaoh.

The observance of the sabbath was to be abrogated at the same time as the other Hebrew rites and ceremonies, that is, at the death of Christ. . . .” [Roman Catholic Online Library; Quick Questions (1994)] - CATHOLIC LIBRARY: Quick Questions (1994)

“... Today Jews and other groups who keep the sabbath, such as the Seventh-Day Adventists, continue to celebrate it from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. This way of reckoning time was not the only one in the ancient world. For example, the Romans reckoned days from midnight to midnight--the system we use today. … Sunday is often spoken of as "the Christian sabbath," but this is not a technical description. Sunday is not a strict replacement for the sabbath (which has been abolished), but a day the Church instituted to fulfill a parallel function. ...” [Roman Catholic Online Library; Quick Questions (1994)] - CATHOLIC LIBRARY: Quick Questions (1994)

“...With regard to the exposition of this commandment, the faithful are to be carefully taught in what it accords with, and in what it differs from the others, in order that they may understand why Christians observe not the Sabbath, but the Lord's day. … all the commandments contained in the two tables are observed by Christians … whereas this commandment, if considered as to the time of its fulfillment, is not fixed and unalterable, but is susceptible of change, and belongs not to the moral but ceremonial Law. … ” [The Catechism of the Council of Trent published by command of Pope Pius The Fifth, translated into English by the Rev. J. Donovon, Professor, &c Royal College, Maynooth; Baltimore: Published by Lucas Brothers. No. 170 Market Street; Printed By James Young, Baltimore; On The Third Commandment; pg 264] - The catechism of the Council of Trent

“...But the Church of God [Roman Catholic church] has in her wisdom ordained that the celebration of the Sabbath should be transferred to “the Lord's day:” …” [The Catechism of the Council of Trent; On The Third Commandment; pg 267] - The catechism of the Council of Trent

The catechism of the Council of Trent : Catholic Church : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

“...Now the Scriptures alone do not contain all the truths which a Christian is bound to believe, nor do they explicitly enjoin all the duties which he is obliged to practice. Not to mention other examples, is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify. ...” [The Faith Of Our Fathers “Being a Plain Exposition and Vindication of the Church Founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ” By James Cardinal Gibbons; Archbishop of Baltimore, Ninety-third Carefully Revised and Enlarged Edition; John Murphy Company; Publishers; Baltimore, MD. New York; R. & T. Washbourne, Ltd.; 10 Paternoster Row, London, and at Manchester.; Birmingham and Glascow; 1917; Chapter VIII [8]. The Church And The Bible; Online Pg 97, also side notation pagination as [089]] - http://www.gutenberg.org/files/27435/27435-pdf.pdf

klutedavid said:

The historical record tells us that church leaders met in Laodicea (Turkey).

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That is only one record, of a specific 'catholic' (not Christian) 'synod' in the mid 300's (circa 363, the 4th Cent.).

"... The Laodicea at which the Synod met is Laodicea in Phrygia Pacatiana, also called Laodicea ad Lycum, and to be carefully distinguished from the Laodicea in Syria. ..." - CHURCH FATHERS: Synod of Laodicea (4th Century)

"... The Council of Laodicea was a regional synod of approximately thirty clerics from Asia Minor that assembled about 363–364 AD in Laodicea, Phrygia Pacatiana. ..." - Council of Laodicea - Wikipedia

It was in 'turkey'. True, yet if you consider the material in those 'canons', you will see that their decisions were based upon things that already existed previously.

klutedavid said:

At the Laodicea council a church law was passed, which reads as follows.

Canon XXIX.
Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honoring the Lord’s Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians.

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Do you know why 'canon XXIX' was made?

Canon 16 'XVI' (Laodicea):

"The Gospels are to be read on the Sabbath [i.e. Saturday], with the other Scriptures.

... Neander (Kirchengesch., 2d ed., vol. iij., p. 565 et seq.) suggests ... that it was the custom in many parts of the ancient Church to keep every Saturday as a feast in commemoration of the Creation. ...

... Among the Greeks the Sabbath was kept ..." - CHURCH FATHERS: Synod of Laodicea (4th Century)

The 'pope' of Rome (there were other 'popes'), didn't have to be at Laodicea as Sylvester I had already issued a statement on the thing before this 'synod'.

klutedavid said:

The bishop of Rome did not attend the council of Laodicea.

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True. So?

klutedavid said:

Hence, the Roman church had nothing to do with enforcing that Christians gather on Sunday.

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You just stretched the evidence you gave beyond what it gives.

klutedavid said:

See how I support my statements with historical references, I encourage you to do the same.

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I saw how the source you used was stretched to support your a priori.

Yet, see the evidence I provided is against your stretching?

klutedavid said:

In future, place the source that your quoting from, cite the source for your claims.

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Done.

One week, and over 200 posts later, I don't think anyone has actually answered my question, how do I keep the Sabbath - see post #80. The only response I had was, "why don't you work?"
Does this mean that people prefer academic argument to practical advice/support?

Strong in Him said:

One week, and over 200 posts later, I don't think anyone has actually answered my question, how do I keep the Sabbath - see post #80. The only response I had was, "why don't you work?"
Does this mean that people prefer academic argument to practical advice/support?

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Apologies, I had not read that, and jumped in where I did so many posts ago.

No, I actually prefer practical, & useful to the endless war with hard-hearted persons in their theological gymnastics of self-justification.

Jesus is the example. Follow the Lamb. Look at all the texts in which Jesus keeps the sabbath. He is the perfect example:

1Pe_2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Read Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11. Read Isaiah 58-61.

Then look at the examples of Paul in Acts 13, 15, 16, 17, 18.

Then look at John's example on the Isle of Patmos in Revelation 1.

Some basics, no common/profane labour (like mowing your lawn, or your neighbours lawn, washing your car, laundry, shopping, etc of like things; have as much of the food prep done as possible before sabbath starts).

Meet with other Christians in holy convocation to worship God in spirit and in truth, not forsaking the gathering together.

You can read the scriptures. You can minister to others who are poor, sick, etc. Visit other members, neighbours, friends, family. Preach/share the Gospel. You can sing hymns, psalms and spiritual songs or listen to godly music. Walk out in nature and consider the things God has made. Spend time with family. Prayer, public, family and private. Bible study. Live the Gospel.

klutedavid said:

You said the following in your post.

The historical record indicates that Gentile churches were gathering on Sunday to celebrate the risen Christ.

Your claiming that Gentile churches honored the Sabbath day, which the historical record does not support.

Your claim is baseless and you cannot support that claim.

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Great, so they started keeping sunday at laodicea... still havent counter that Jesus directly alludes to sabbath rest and worship for a mixed crowd and in the future after his death and resurrection...


secondly, sunday observance started to happen yes as a way to separate christians from jews, but also as a cultural thing, after emperor constantine passed the following law:


supporting my claim also, in the Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, we read:

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (AD 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday….

Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.

Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her!
—Rev. Peter Geiermann, C.SS.R., (1946), p. 50.


Also the idea that "The pope didnt attend, so it has nothing to do with the catholic church" is bollocks. The council was a gathering of ministers, bishops and other leaders from asia minor, which were catholic.

Also in Catholic Christian Instructed we read:

Q. Has the [Catholic] church power to make any alterations in the commandments of God?
A. ...Instead of the seventh day, and other festivals appointed by the old law, the church has prescribed the Sundays and holy days to be set apart for God’s worship; and these we are now obliged to keep in consequence of God’s commandment, instead of the ancient Sabbath.
—The Catholic Christian Instructed in the Sacraments, Sacrifices, Ceremonies, and Observances of the Church By Way of Question and Answer, RT Rev. Dr. Challoner, p. 204.

In An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine,

Q. How prove you that the church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
A. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.

Q. How prove you that?
A. Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the church’s power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power.
–Rev. Henry Tuberville, D.D. (R.C.), (1833), page 58.

In the Catechism of the Council of Trent,

The Church of God has thought it well to transfer the celebration and observance of the Sabbath to Sunday!
–p 402, second revised edition (English), 1937. (First published in 1566)

In "The early Sabbath" we read,

“For centuries millions of Christians have gathered to worship God on the first day of the week. Graciously He has accepted this worship. He has poured out His blessings upon Christian people as they have sought to serve Him. However, as one searches the Scriptures, he is forced to recognize that Sunday is not a day of God’s appointment… It has no foundation in Scripture, but has arisen entirely as a result of custom,” says Frank H. Yost, Ph.D.

Finally, from the book, The Faith of Millions, p. 473.

“But since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn’t it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not from the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistency but this change was made about fifteen centuries before Protestantism was born, and by that time the custom was universally observed. They have continued the custom even though it rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text from the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair.”


The transition begun with constatine, and quickly the Roman Catholic church adopted this day by its own authority, and protestants have since followed that wrong doctrine from fear of being "Judeaziers" whereas the bible says we are spiritual Israelites! (Galatians 3:7) when we got up from the water of our baptism we were born to the same people to whom Moses, Solomon, David, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Jesus were born.

So trying to make this hard distinction not only lead to us protestants accepting part of the Catholic church's authority, but also it lead us to deny the bible


BTW I'm not SDA if wondering

Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel that is not binding on Christians under the New Testament.

*Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Even when Sabbatarians set out to worship on the Sabbath, are they truly "keeping the Sabbath?" To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant would involve compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

If Sabbath day observances are still required, so would the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). So no kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). Every man must remain in his place on the sabbath (Exodus 16:29). No trading (Amos 8:5). No marketing (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19).

These were commanded by God to Israel (Exodus 35:1).

If the seventh day Sabbath is still in affect, then why do not the Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person keep a certain law when he keeps only part of it?

If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people.

Who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh day Adventist church? The Government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did under the Old Covenant, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under these Mosaic regulations.

klutedavid said:

When the Pharisees state,“Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” They are actually saying that Gentiles must adhere to the law as Christians to be saved.

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i agree. circumcision was greater than the sabbath and the 10 commandments (within which the sabbath law sat). a male was to be cut off from his people if not circumcised on the eighth day, before he can even understand to obey any of the 10 commandments. the command to circumcise on the eighth day over-ruled the command not to work on the sabbath.

therefore, by the apostles concluding that circumcisoin is unnecessary for believers, it follows that the 10 commandments and the rest of the law - lesser than circumcision - were and are also unnecessary.

Danthemailman said:

Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel that is not binding on Christians under the New Testament.

*Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Even when Sabbatarians set out to worship on the Sabbath, are they truly "keeping the Sabbath?" To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant would involve compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

If Sabbath day observances are still required, so would the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). So no kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). Every man must remain in his place on the sabbath (Exodus 16:29). No trading (Amos 8:5). No marketing (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19).

These were commanded by God to Israel (Exodus 35:1).

If the seventh day Sabbath is still in affect, then why do not the Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person keep a certain law when he keeps only part of it?

If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people.

Who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh day Adventist church? The Government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did under the Old Covenant, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under these Mosaic regulations.

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CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT read colossians 2:18... its talking about asceticism. Colossia was experiencing a wave of "Christians" that said you had to abstain and never enjoy anything physical. in this way, Paul is saying "Dont let anyone say you are less a christian because of you enjoying eating drinking, or because of festivals or a sabbath" yes, the word itself "enjoying" isnt there, but asceticism, which is what the following verses says were the problem, were attacking the enjoying of such things.

regarding Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32 and Jeremiah 17:21, except for the verse in Exodus, the verses like Leviticus 23:32 are talking about holyday sabbath, or sabbaths appointed by the ritual law (remember, 2 sets of law, one set in stone written by God, carried inside the Ark of the Covenant, another writen by Moses, in paparyus, carried OUTSIDE the Ark, one is the eternal law which Jesus Refers to which are merely explanations on "Love God and Love neighbor" and one that deals with the shadows of Christ, ie offerings, washings, etc.) so again, CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT

Regarding offerings.. again, ceremonial law, not the 10 commandments. No buying or selling... yup, every sabbatarian that i know doesnt trade between friday sundown and saturday sundown unless its a necessity, just like picking grain for eating in the apostles case (this was the case of a friend of mine, who calculated food portions badly, and he had to buy food during the sabbath which is no different from the apostles picking and eating during the sabbath) }

regarding death penalty... well, that was before Jesus Cleaned us... bearing false witness bore the death penalty and so did having sex outside marriage, yet we dont kill 17 year olds for getting too frisky with their hs sweetheart

Why not keep all? simply there's a distinction. I wonder do you murder? because that was part of the 10 commandments.. so if the 4th passed, so must the 6th... or God is picky and some pass away and some dont? can you now have idols? I mean, its in the same set of 10 laws.... See the problem? not only saturday Worship was insituted by a roman emperor as a culture thing, and later by the catholic church as an ordinance...


Also, didnt you see how Jesus re taught the 10 commandments at the sermon on the mount? he taught how "Do not kill" doesnt refer to only stabbing, but also your heart, how "do not commit adultery" doesnt refer to only penis in vagina but also your heart...



Remember Matthew 5?
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Jesus tought that yes, we are not saved by the law, but if we are transformed, our heart should long for obeying God. I myself find peace in keeping the sabbath, even when I have to later study or work harder to compensate, I find great joy in doing what God said

Phil.Stein said:

i agree. circumcision was greater than the sabbath and the 10 commandments (within which the sabbath law sat). a male was to be cut off from his people if not circumcised on the eighth day, before he can even understand to obey any of the 10 commandments. the command to circumcise on the eighth day over-ruled the command not to work on the sabbath.

therefore, by the apostles concluding that circumcisoin is unnecessary for believers, it follows that the 10 commandments and the rest of the law - lesser than circumcision - were and are also unnecessary.

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We were circumsiced in our hearts explains the bible, so too the sabbath is not a matter of salvation, but a matter of living according to God's plan. God rested during creation, it pre dates circumsition, also the laws that God deemed important enough to write himself with his own finger, didnt mention circumsition. The Jews made circumsition a big deal, not the law of God. and again, paul kept keeping the sabbath, and he taught to gentiles in the synagogue on the sabbath, and gentiles attended the synagogue during the sabbath

Undercover_mormon said:

We were circumsiced in our hearts explains the bible, so too the sabbath is not a matter of salvation, but a matter of living according to God's plan. God rested during creation, it pre dates circumsition, also the laws that God deemed important enough to write himself with his own finger, didnt mention circumsition. The Jews made circumsition a big deal, not the law of God. and again, paul kept keeping the sabbath, and he taught to gentiles in the synagogue on the sabbath, and gentiles attended the synagogue during the sabbath

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two different issues. circumcising flesh or circumcising hearts. obligation to keep sabbath or blessing from keeping sabbath.

God was prepared to kill moses, the lawgiver to israel, over the issue of not circumcising his son, until his wife saved his life by circumcing with a rock. so again, if God was prepared to kill the instrument through which he gave the 10 commandments due to uncircumcision of the flesh, hard to argue God didn't deem it important. no circumcision, no 10 commandments, due to God slaying moses (exodus 4).

are we obliged to keep the sabbath? i'd say no. is the sabbath blessed, and more beneficial than the other days for resting? i'd say yes. but this is an opinion based on faith, not explicitly stated in scripture.

Undercover_mormon said:

CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT read colossians 2:18... its talking about asceticism. Colossia was experiencing a wave of "Christians" that said you had to abstain and never enjoy anything physical. in this way, Paul is saying "Dont let anyone say you are less a christian because of you enjoying eating drinking, or because of festivals or a sabbath" yes, the word itself "enjoying" isnt there, but asceticism, which is what the following verses says were the problem, were attacking the enjoying of such things.

regarding Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32 and Jeremiah 17:21, except for the verse in Exodus, the verses like Leviticus 23:32 are talking about holyday sabbath, or sabbaths appointed by the ritual law (remember, 2 sets of law, one set in stone written by God, carried inside the Ark of the Covenant, another writen by Moses, in paparyus, carried OUTSIDE the Ark, one is the eternal law which Jesus Refers to which are merely explanations on "Love God and Love neighbor" and one that deals with the shadows of Christ, ie offerings, washings, etc.) so again, CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT

Regarding offerings.. again, ceremonial law, not the 10 commandments. No buying or selling... yup, every sabbatarian that i know doesnt trade between friday sundown and saturday sundown unless its a necessity, just like picking grain for eating in the apostles case (this was the case of a friend of mine, who calculated food portions badly, and he had to buy food during the sabbath which is no different from the apostles picking and eating during the sabbath) }

regarding death penalty... well, that was before Jesus Cleaned us... bearing false witness bore the death penalty and so did having sex outside marriage, yet we dont kill 17 year olds for getting too frisky with their hs sweetheart

Why not keep all? simply there's a distinction. I wonder do you murder? because that was part of the 10 commandments.. so if the 4th passed, so must the 6th... or God is picky and some pass away and some dont? can you now have idols? I mean, its in the same set of 10 laws.... See the problem? not only saturday Worship was insituted by a roman emperor as a culture thing, and later by the catholic church as an ordinance...

Also, didnt you see how Jesus re taught the 10 commandments at the sermon on the mount? he taught how "Do not kill" doesnt refer to only stabbing, but also your heart, how "do not commit adultery" doesnt refer to only penis in vagina but also your heart...

Remember Matthew 5?
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus tought that yes, we are not saved by the law, but if we are transformed, our heart should long for obeying God. I myself find peace in keeping the sabbath, even when I have to later study or work harder to compensate, I find great joy in doing what God said

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You may find this helpful - Sabbatismos Ministries: Finding Our Rest in Christ - Is the Sabbath Still Required for Christians?

Frankly, its an option because we are not saved by works, but God punsished moses harshly because he screamed and hit at a rock instead of being polite... So not getting angry with rocks is super important? nope. its a matter of CONTEXT. God killed early christians who "cheated" the offerings.. so is never exagerating or remotely misleading about our offerings more important? nope

its context brother. But God from the get go created the sabbath for rest, not for common work and Jesus echoed this. saying that its alright to keep the sabbath, but that the spirit of its its not "not tying your sandals" but rather devoting yourself to God and God's work 100%. Circumsition of the flesh was important to Jews by flesh, but even then, that commandment comes after the sabbath.

You can see the 10 commandments reflected in the garden of eden, but not the ceremonial law
in the Garden: they worship God only
they were respectful towards God
they didnt build idols,
the first full day of adam was the sabbath while God rested
they didnt murder
and so on....

yet they DIDNT:
Cover their nakedness
There's no mention of them washing in a specific way before eating
They didnt wear clothes with no mixed fabrics
There werent circumcised (as they would have tought that and abraham would have known)
and so on...

Where they sinning? no, they were following God's original plan, which included non of the ceremonial "acts" yet they reflected the 10 commandments

Is this the smoking gun? no, but it does show how the ceremonial law wasnt there in the beggining and how it isnt here now, yet the 10 commandments were perfectly followed.


And again, Jesus does imply that the sabbath ought to be kept in 24:20 when speaking to a mixed crowd of Jews and Gentiles and talking about the future. Why Jesus isnt more direct... well, maybe he was, but those who w

Danthemailman said:

You may find this helpful - Sabbatismos Ministries: Finding Our Rest in Christ - Is the Sabbath Still Required for Christians?

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"What is striking is that Jesus deliberately healed on the Sabbath. Healing is what he “ought” (dei) to do on the Sabbath day (Luke 13:16). It seems that he did so to demonstrate his superiority to the Sabbath and to hint that it is not in force forever"

That alone shows a lack of understanding about the Sabbath. Jesus didnt break God's rules about the sabbath, but rather man made rules.
Jesus spoke against traditions in every aspect, whether cleaning and washing, not healing on the sabbath, etc.
As God, Jesus is Lord over the Sabbath thats correct, but even then, God is shown to be voluntarily resting during the sabbath during creation.

Furthermore, and for the 10th time, Jesus hinted at the sabbath still being relevant to even gentiles when in matthew 24:20 he tells people to pray that their fleeing might not be during a sabbath. This ofcourse refers to the destruction of the temple in AD 71, so Jesus does point out that 40 years after his death, Gentiles should worry about the sabbath ALONGSIDE JEWS.
Nevermind the fact that sunday worship and rest didnt come to being until the roman church and constatine in the 4th century. as the early christian church kept the sabbath.

The push to change to sunday arose from desiring to follow constatine's rule, but also from not wanting to be "Judeaizers" and thus separated themselves from jews in this manner, yet, how many times Jesus told us to not make such distinctions? that everyone that believes is one, that everyone who believes has been born again in abraham, ie being israelites now?

that page also commits the same flaw that previous people have,

It is clear in Paul’s letters that the Sabbath is not binding upon believers. In Colossians Paul identifies the Sabbath as a shadow along with requirements regarding foods, festivals, and the new moon (Col. 2:16–17).

to the above claim, I have already responded with CONTEXT, read also verse 18, it talks about asceticism, which attacked enjoying anything physical. Paul isnt addressing people Keeping the sabbath, but rather Paul addresses people saying you should not keep or enjoy the sabbath

another lack of CONTEXT can be found in:
Another crucial text on the Sabbath is Romans 14:5: “One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.”

the problem here is that Paul is talking about the practice of esteeming one day above others for fasting. Some said that Monday and Thursday were the best says to fast or eat certain things in certain days, or that you should fast 3 days, and so on. Paul here says "If you wanna fast, do it, conviced in your own mind"

here's the text:


Do you see it? it talks about eating and fasting and eating meat (side note, here is talking also about the issue of eating meat offered to idols, as the issue of eating unclean meats is a whole another issue, which this verse does not address)



Now, I'm not saying you are not well meaning, but will you accept that in context, and fully understanding the text, the new testament never supports not keeping the sabbath?? because this doesnt seem different than arguing with a mormon who takes passages out of context to prove that we can become gods or smth like that... or the Jehova Witness who pulls passages out of context to prove Jesus is Michael the archangel, first and greatest creation of Jehova God

Strong in Him said:

One week, and over 200 posts later, I don't think anyone has actually answered my question, how do I keep the Sabbath - see post #80. The only response I had was, "why don't you work?"
Does this mean that people prefer academic argument to practical advice/support?

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In my case... try to start the sabbath (as per the bible, during friday sundown) with bible reading, listening to sermons, etc. maybe a song. If i'm with friend who also keep the sabbath, then a meal, sing, praise, so on. saturday morning, go to church, arrive home and rest, either a nap if i'm tired or simply get away from my weekly duties.

Saturday afternoon, go out, walk, enjoy what the Lord created, a walk by the beach or through my city or a park. Go out with family, enjoy.
Finally closer to sundown, i make my way back home, where i read the bible, pray, and end the sabbath happily. I will also help out if i can, maybe do some volunteer work (it is lawful to do good on a sabbath)

Really, the main take aways is, Praise, do good, enjoy and rest. eat a good meal, spend some quality time, forget about work, bills, school, cleaning and such, and through out the day, prayer and worship. I heard someone say "The temple was a place when heaven and earth met in space, and what the temple is to space, the sabbath is to time" I also heard "The sabbath is our Heavenly father saying: good job throughout the week, now take a break and lets share some special time together" I guess the sabbath is like that meal at the end of the day with your family, you rest, you eat, you enjoy company, you tell eachother how you are and share whats on your mind, and the end of it, you go to sleep and restart your day. You wouldnt work while in a family dinner, neither would you be on the phone with other friends, its disrespectful, its annoying, and it shows a lack of interest and love, that dinner time, its the sabbath

to be able to do that, I like cleaning everything real well during friday, if up to me, even leave the food prepped or almost done.

Undercover_mormon said:

In my case... try to start the sabbath (as per the bible, during friday sundown) with bible reading, listening to sermons, etc. maybe a song. If i'm with friend who also keep the sabbath, then a meal, sing, praise, so on. saturday morning, go to church, arrive home and rest, either a nap if i'm tired or simply get away from my weekly duties.

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Thank you for your reply.
I must admit that I disagree - if I kept the 7th day at all, it would start Saturday a.m, not Friday night. But I appreciate you responding.

liberty of conscience said:

You just proved what I said (and already demonstrated from scripture). They are two things, not one.

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I said what I said because sabbatarians seem to believe that the ten commandments are not a part of the covenant given to the Israelites at Sinai, despite that scripture clearly states that they are part of that specific covenant. They are not two different covenants. There were no sabbath laws given to the Israelites (or anyone else) in scripture before the Sinai covenant was made.

klutedavid said:

What were the better promises that the old covenant did not promise?

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They seem to like to conveniently ignore this point.

Strong in Him said:

One week, and over 200 posts later, I don't think anyone has actually answered my question, how do I keep the Sabbath - see post #80. The only response I had was, "why don't you work?"
Does this mean that people prefer academic argument to practical advice/support?

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You receive Christ into your heart, acknowledge him as your Lord and Savior, and put your full trust in him and allow the Holy Spirit to work internally to transform you from your old self into your new self in Christ. This is how you keep the sabbath as a new covenant Christian. If you are in Christ, you are not in disobedience or transgression of any old covenant laws, including the seventh day sabbath. New covenant sabbath-keeping isn't about observing any day of the week, but about a person, that person being Jesus Christ. Jesus is who gives us rest, and it is Jesus who needs to be central to our faith, not lawkeeping. If anyone attempts to tell you that we are saved by keeping the sabbath or any law or by anything else that we *do*, even in a roundabout way while claiming otherwise, then it is false. Jesus is our *only* salvation and we are saved by his grace alone.

Strong in Him said:

Thank you for your reply.
I must admit that I disagree - if I kept the 7th day at all, it would start Saturday a.m, not Friday night. But I appreciate you responding.

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I understand where you comming from, but the bible always counts days as starting at sundown, not at 00. so its really about consistency. the current notion of days starting at midnight is a Roman construct, not a biblical one. Anyways, even then, keeping the sabbath that way is still better than not

bekkilyn said:

You receive Christ into your heart, acknowledge him as your Lord and Savior, and put your full trust in him and allow the Holy Spirit to work internally to transform you from your old self into your new self in Christ. This is how you keep the sabbath as a new covenant Christian. If you are in Christ, you are not in disobedience or transgression of any old covenant laws, including the seventh day sabbath. New covenant sabbath-keeping isn't about observing any day of the week, but about a person, that person being Jesus Christ. Jesus is who gives us rest, and it is Jesus who needs to be central to our faith, not lawkeeping. If anyone attempts to tell you that we are saved by keeping the sabbath or any law or by anything else that we *do*, even in a roundabout way while claiming otherwise, then it is false. Jesus is our *only* salvation and we are saved by his grace alone.

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Except Paul addressed people asceticism which claimed that everything physical, including the sabbath was wrong, and tought that its not so.
Except Jesus pointed that even Gentiles ought to keep the sabbath in matthew 24:20
Except the early church kept the sabbath

Jesus is our sabbath rest in the sense that he lifts our burdens, he takes away our need for priests and sacrifices.
No one says you are being saved by keeping the sabbath just like you arent saved by not comminting adultery, yet both laws come from the same set of 10, and i think we both agree that just because we arent saved by not commiting adultery, doesnt mean we can now disreagard that and commit adultery right away...

Danthemailman said:

Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel that is not binding on Christians under the New Testament.

*Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Even when Sabbatarians set out to worship on the Sabbath, are they truly "keeping the Sabbath?" To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant would involve compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

If Sabbath day observances are still required, so would the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). So no kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). Every man must remain in his place on the sabbath (Exodus 16:29). No trading (Amos 8:5). No marketing (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19).

These were commanded by God to Israel (Exodus 35:1).

If the seventh day Sabbath is still in affect, then why do not the Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person keep a certain law when he keeps only part of it?

If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people.

Who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh day Adventist church? The Government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did under the Old Covenant, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under these Mosaic regulations.

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Yep, even the sabbatarians are in violation of old covenant sabbath law, even when they vehemently claim to be keeping it, but I guess as long as you go to church on Saturday instead of Sunday, it somehow cancels out the need to bother with any of those other details, and then you can rationalize away any other requirements with an argument that our culture is different now.

Or we as new covenant Christians can put our trust in Christ rather than in lawkeeping.