If absolutely everything is predestined, and there is no choice, then wouldn't all have to be saved?

redleghunter said:

Romans 9: NASB
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

There goes that theory.

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I think the whole idea behind Rom 9 is to show that Jew and Gentile are justified the same way, not by works of the Law of Moses but through faith, and that faith is given us by His mercy. I don't think Rom 9 got much to do with predestination, rather that it's about God's power to choose in any given situation.

31 and Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, at a law of righteousness did not arrive; 32 wherefore? because -- not by faith, but as by works of law

Paul is using Esau and Jacob as an example how we aren't chosen by works but through mercy. When Jacob wasn't born how could he have been chosen by works to be of the bloodline of Jesus? How can we be chosen to salvation through works? Instead Paul says we are saved by His mercy through righteousness which God bestows to those who not work for righteousness through the Law of Moses but by faith (v.32, 30).

30 What, then, shall we say? that nations who are not pursuing righteousness (works of the Law) did attain to righteousness, and righteousness that [is] of faith,

What part we play in having faith it does not say ... only that it's not by works of the Law.

Neogaia777 said:

I would like to suggest also, that maybe only from the moment one is "saved" that the Lord then, orders all his steps from there maybe...?

Or the only real true choice is our salvation, either accepting or rejecting, and maybe the Lord predestines all of everyone's steps, but around that choice, only one real true choice, to either accept him or reject him, and that he uses the bad (ones) for, or for the furthering of, the good (ones)...

What do you think...?

For example I don't know if I really have my own choice(s) "now", but wonder if it has always been that way or not...?

Beyond that, I sometimes wonder if I have been chosen for bad or good sometimes as well...?

Or are we all running off of (our supposed choices and choosing) are not all running off of past "programming", so to speak...?

Thoughts...?

God Bless!

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God gave us free will. Remember Cain and Abel? Genesis 4:6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” How can we rule over temptation if we have no free will? Here are a few more verses that support free will:
Deuteronomy 5:29 Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever!
Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, let us settle the matter,” says the Lord. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. 19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the good things of the land; 20 but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword.” For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.
John 7:17 Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed.[a] Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.
If I had to believe it is true that God predestines some people to hell without their doing anything to deserve it, I would rather be an atheist. I think double predestination is what is fueling the atheism in this country.

zoidar said:

I think the whole idea behind Rom 9 is to show that Jew and Gentile are justified the same way, not by works of the Law of Moses but through faith, and that faith is given us by His mercy. I don't think Rom 9 got much to do with predestination, rather that it's about God's power to choose in any given situation.

31 and Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, at a law of righteousness did not arrive; 32 wherefore? because -- not by faith, but as by works of law

Paul is using Esau and Jacob as an example how we aren't chosen by works but through mercy. When Jacob wasn't born how could he have been chosen by works to be of the bloodline of Jesus? How can we be chosen to salvation through works? Instead Paul says we are saved by His mercy through righteousness which God bestows to those who not work for righteousness through the Law of Moses but by faith (v.32, 30).

30 What, then, shall we say? that nations who are not pursuing righteousness (works of the Law) did attain to righteousness, and righteousness that [is] of faith,

What part we play in having faith it does not say ... only that it's not by works of the Law.

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I think Romans 9 is saying that God does give talents and gifts to some people, but not to all. We should not feel like we are being cheated of something because we don't deserve anything or mercy. If he leaves some in their sins, they are only punished according to what they deserve.
God, says St. Augustine. is said to harden men's hearts, not by causing their malice, but by not giving them the free gift of his grace, by which they become hardened by their own perverse will. For example: Pharaoh's hard heart toward the requests of Moses was unreasonable because Pharaoh could have known the one true God if he wanted to.
St Paul wants to teach men that they ought not to complain against God and his providence so when they cannot comprehend his works, he reminds them of their origin.

Individually



Romans 9:17-24

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



To understand what Paul is saying here we have to look at the potter and the clay. This is found in Jeremiah 18.


Jeremiah 18:1-6



The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.


The Septuagint has verse 4 and the vessel which he was making with his hands fell:


So we see that the vessel God was making fell, so God picks up the clay and makes another vessel out of it.


Now read in Romans 9:21


Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Now keep in mind that it is the SAME LUMP.


The vessel unto dishonour we are told in verse 22 is fitted to destruction.


What does it mean to be fitted to destruction?


Destruction is the Greek word apoleia, which is rooted in apollumi. Apollumi, as most Universalist knows is a corrective word or a word of correction. When God Apollumi’s someone God is correcting that person.


Fitted is the Greek word katartizo and means to make one as he ought to be made.


So when the scriptures state that the vessels of dishonour are fitted to destruction it is saying that the vessels of dishonour are made how they ought to be made through correction.


What is Gods aim for every vessel?


It is Gods aim that every vessel is made unto honour.


Now remember the vessel of dishonour and the vessel of honour are the SAME LUMP.


What these scriptures are telling us when we compare Paul with Jeremiah is that God will take man and remould and remould man as many times as it takes to make man into a vessel of honour. Out of the SAME LUMP a vessel of honour and a vessel of dishonour.


Collectively


Jeremiah 18:11-12 states


11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.


Here we see God pronounces evil against Judah and Jerusalem and the people say there is no hope. They seemed to believe like many reading this that because God prophesied there doom and nothing can change Gods prophecy there was no hope for them so they might as well walk after their own devices. Doom was prophesied, doom must come.


However, is that what God wanted them to believe? Or was He showing them that prophesy can be changed through repentance.


Jeremiah 18:7-10

7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.


Here we can see few things.

Repentance changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy

Obedience changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy

Disobedience changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy


So how does Jeremiah apply to what Paul told us?


Romans 9 through 11 has to be taken as a whole. And the whole is all about election.


Paul summarizes everything he said in Romans 9 this way


Romans 9:30-33

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.



This summery by Paul here he goes on to explain in Romans 11.


Romans 11 tells us that the Jews were broken off because of unbelief and the Gentiles were grafted in because of faith.


The Jews are vessels of dishonor through their unbelief; they are the vessels, which fell from the potter’s hand.


Jeremiah 18:10

10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.



The Gentiles are vessels of Honor by faith.



The Jews were hardened the Gentiles received mercy.


Ro.11:23

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.


Jeremiah 18:8

If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.



The Jews are the vessels fitted to destruction because of their unbelief. They are the vessels who will be grafted back into the tree if they abide not in their unbelief. Thus, they are the vessels made as they ought to be made through correction, being grafted back in, vessels of honor.

zoidar said:

I think the whole idea behind Rom 9 is to show that Jew and Gentile are justified the same way, not by works of the Law of Moses but through faith, and that faith is given us by His mercy. I don't think Rom 9 got much to do with predestination, rather that it's about God's power to choose in any given situation.

31 and Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, at a law of righteousness did not arrive; 32 wherefore? because -- not by faith, but as by works of law

Paul is using Esau and Jacob as an example how we aren't chosen by works but through mercy. When Jacob wasn't born how could he have been chosen by works to be of the bloodline of Jesus? How can we be chosen to salvation through works? Instead Paul says we are saved by His mercy through righteousness which God bestows to those who not work for righteousness through the Law of Moses but by faith (v.32, 30).

30 What, then, shall we say? that nations who are not pursuing righteousness (works of the Law) did attain to righteousness, and righteousness that [is] of faith,

What part we play in having faith it does not say ... only that it's not by works of the Law.

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Hello @zoidar

I read your essay about what Eastern religions and Christianity offer, thank you for sharing that.
Hinduism teaches karma, suffering and rebirth. Buddhism believes the same; the founder of buddhism was a prince of an ancient Indian hindu kingdom, and he grew up under the influence of Hinduism. Later, he developed his own belief Buddhism but because he was brought up with Hindu belief, Buddhism had many similarities with Hinduism.

In Singapore (where I am from), there are people of the major religions (Buddhists (and Taoists) almost 60% , Christianity 15%, Muslims 12%, Hinduisms 5%, the rest have no religions), and I am familiar with different belief systems. In Christianity, God reach out to people and offer unconditional redemption, which is my faith and belief. I have Other regions stress good deeds: do good and good will come back to you (whether this life or next). The truth is there is no next life. Even though buddhism said there are rebirths , very few people, whether Buddhists or Hindus or whatever faith , could not claim they remember their former lives. Once in a while, a handful of people (out of 6 billion on earth) will say they remember something, but this just isn't in the least convincing.

roman2819 said:

Hello @zoidar

I read your essay about what Eastern religions and Christianity offer, thank you for sharing that.
Hinduism teaches karma, suffering and rebirth. Buddhism believes the same; the founder of buddhism was a prince of an ancient Indian hindu kingdom, and he grew up under the influence of Hinduism. Later, he developed his own belief Buddhism but because he was brought up with Hindu belief, Buddhism had many similarities with Hinduism.

In Singapore (where I am from), there are people of the major religions (Buddhists (and Taoists) almost 60% , Christianity 15%, Muslims 12%, Hinduisms 5%, the rest have no religions), and I am familiar with different belief systems. In Christianity, God reach out to people and offer unconditional redemption. Other regions stress good deeds: do good and good will come back to you (whether this life or next). The truth is there is no next life. Even though buddhism said there are rebirths , very few people, whether Buddhists or Hindus or whatever faith , could not claim they remember their former lives. Once in a while, a handful of people (out of 6 billion on earth) will say they remember something, but this just isn't in the least convincing.

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What I find curious about Bhuddism (and secondarily Hinduism, its parent) is the goal. According to the Bhudda once a person receives enlightenment, then the cycle of reincarnation is broken and one attains the goal of Nirvana, which is a state of nothingness. However, most branches of modern Bhuddism teach that the goal is prosperity and obesity in the next life. Thus, the obese statue of Bhudda that Westerners such as myself see as a joke, is really a serious evocation of a desired state in one's next reincarnation.

bbbbbbb said:

What I find curious about Bhuddism (and secondarily Hinduism, its parent) is the goal. According to the Bhudda once a person receives enlightenment, then the cycle of reincarnation is broken and one attains the goal of Nirvana, which is a state of nothingness. However, most branches of modern Bhuddism teach that the goal is prosperity and obesity in the next life. Thus, the obese statue of Bhudda that Westerners such as myself see as a joke, is really a serious evocation of a desired state in one's next reincarnation.

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It is all too common for people to practice differently from what they believe. In a secular and materialistic world, many Buddhists try to live well ( such as to proper or be happy) and at the same time do good deeds for next life (according to them, there is next life even though they seldom talk about it.).

Neogaia777 said:

They could be of the same spirit, but being flesh and never moving past or getting beyond the flesh, they are erased and wiped out, and maybe their "like spirit" (little s) is continual or has been continual, or is recycled and stays here, and has been here and will be here until this system of things is gone or destroyed or changed maybe...?

That would kind of go into my take on hell as well...

We also may all be, or "we all know we will be" "one Spirit with God" in Heaven, at that time, and maybe subsets or groupings of us will be of like or of similar Spirits also...

But that is in Heaven, not the ones here not ever moving past the flesh and not bound for Heaven...

God Bless!

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This is not at all the case in most modern forms of Bhuddism. Most Bhuddists are practicing precisely what their religion teaches, which is that the best thing that can happen to a Bhuddist is not that he will be freed from the cycle of reincarnation to enter the nothingness of Nirvana, but that the best thing that can happen to a good Bhuddist who goes to the temple and burns incense and donates money generously, is that he will be reincarnated as an extremely obese and extremely wealthy person (which seems to fit the stereotype of many Americans).