marineimaging

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Dear Marine: Au contraire. "You did not choose Me, I chose you..."

Your next assignment should you be willing to accept it, define the koine "helkuo".
You sure seem bent on trying to convert some folks. I am pretty sure I am not one of them.
 
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FineLinen

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Jesus Christ didn't need faith, He is God. Hebrews calls Him the author and finisher of our faith. Why would God need Faith? In whom?

Dear Loyce: The Bible refers to our Lord as the "Author and Finisher of [our]faith." "Our" does not exist in the koine. He is the Author & Finisher of faith!
 
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Loyce KG

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You sure seem bent on trying to convert some folks. I am pretty sure I am not one of them.
He has skewed ideas and won't answer questions but responds with statements loaded with jargon.
 
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FineLinen

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You sure seem bent on trying to convert some folks. I am pretty sure I am not one of them.

Dear Marine: I regret to disclose to you, conversion is not in my dept. I have found how short lived conversions to my viewpoint survive. Conversion is in one glorious Dept of our God who raises the dead!

The whole of created life shall be delivered/ set free/emancipated..
 
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Lazarus Short

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There is an alternate reading of the texts concerning tge lake of fire. I think the body and soul are both destroyed in the lake of fire.

Are they? The first time we encounter God's Fire in the Bible is on a bush, but the Fire did not consume the bush. I think, therefore, that body and soul are NOT destroyed in the LoF...but what is? Our works, for which see I Corinthians 3:14-15.
 
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FineLinen

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So does Jesus need faith?

Dear Loyce: I know not how to put it clearer>>>>

Jesus Christ is "the Author & Perfecter of faith."

I do desire He will lead you into the expansive areas of His love, grace & glory as His grip on you cascades.
 
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lsume

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Why did God create a place like hell to put "damned souls and spirits" in it? Isnt it more merciful to control/alt/delete those souls from creation instead of punishing them and making them suffer forever?
There is a place with eternal torment but that doesn’t mean that any human will spend eternity in that place. On the other hand, there are the fallen and their judgement is coming.

Dan.12
  1. [2] And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
I want to awake to everlasting life and not to everlasting contempt.
 
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Why did God create a place like hell to put "damned souls and spirits" in it? Isnt it more merciful to control/alt/delete those souls from creation instead of punishing them and making them suffer forever?

First, I used to believe in Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) and even defended it on another Christian forum. But in time, after much study, I realized that both Scripture and morality support Conditional Immorality (CI). A hard thing for me to accept was answering this question: "How can the majority of Bible believing churches be wrong?" This was the reason why I was on the fence between ECT and CI for a time. I couldn't believe at the time that majority of Bible believing churches could be in error on such a thing.

Second, the majority of God's Word does not specifically say that the wicked will burn alive in flames for all time. Revelation 14:10-11 is the only passage that appears to say that at first glance (of which I explain below). Inferences or assumptions are made on the words used within a select few small verses (without looking at how those words are used elsewhere in Scripture).

Three, the fire is "everlasting" and or "unquenchable" for the amount of time that the Lake of Fire exists. But the Lake of Fire will not exist for all eternity. How so? Well, in the future, "...God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4). "...for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;.." (Revelation 21:1). The Lake of Fire is a part of the old heavens and old Earth and not the New Heavens and New Earth.

But how can the words like "forever" and "everlasting" be used in a temporal sense?

Well, in the Bible, we see the word "forever" clearly used in a temporal sense in Philemon 1:15.

For it says,

"For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;"
(Philemon 1:15 KJV).​

This is talking about Onesimus. Here is what it says in the New Living Translation,

15 "It seems you lost Onesimus for a little while so that you could have him back forever.
16 He is no longer like a slave to you. He is more than a slave, for he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord."
(Philemon 1:15-16 NLT).​

In other words, Onesimus did not return to his master for all eternity here upon this Earth. Onesimus is not still alive. He is not an immortal or anything of that nature. He was mortal and he died. So to assume that the word "forever" and it's related words always means forever does not work. Meaning, one has to re-examine what they believe the word "forever" means.

But what about words like "for ever and ever"? Surely this must be talking about an endless eternity, right? Again, this would not be true according to the Bible. For Jeremiah 7 says,

"Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever." (Jeremiah 7:7).​

Are we to assume that certain faithful Old Testament saints will dwell in the land here upon this Earth forever and ever while the rest of the saints dwell upon the New Earth? Surely not. "For ever and ever" is used in context to how long that promise will be fulfilled and will last (Which would be with the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ).

There are other examples where the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible.

Take Revelation 14:11 as an example.

It tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically.

In other words,, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 (as mentioned above) where it is contrasted with “for a while.”​


Here is the source for list above for the Scriptural examples used on the word "forever":
http://www.apttoteach.org/attjom/index.php

Side Note:

But what about those who worship the beast as not having rest day and night in Revelation 14:11? Well, this is saying that those who worship the beast will have no rest day and night WHILE or DURING the TIME they worship the beast. For Revelation 16:2 says they had painful boils.
 
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Why did God create a place like hell to put "damned souls and spirits" in it? Isnt it more merciful to control/alt/delete those souls from creation instead of punishing them and making them suffer forever?

Following the Millennium, & the Judgment: On the New Earth, after the city of New Jerusalem comes down from out of Heaven, the...

Saints Witness the Lifeless Remains of the Wicked:

The Saints View The Lifeless Remains (i.e. Corpses) of the Wicked:

Isaiah 66:22-24

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."​

For the Final Fate of the Wicked is Destruction (or Annihiation):

2 Thessalonians 1:9

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."​

Malachi 4:1-3


“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.”​

2 Peter 2:6 NHEB


"...and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.”​

• Psalms 68:2

"....as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God."

• Job 4:8-9

“Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.”​

Psalms 92:7 NLT

"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever."​

• Deuteronomy 7:10

“And repays them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hates him, he will repay him to his face.”​

Psalms 1:6

“For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.”​

Matthew 10:28

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. Gehenna or Lake of Fire].”​

Revelation 21:8

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."


The Final Fate of the Wicked Also Includes the Annihilation or:

A. Destruction of the Devil:

• Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19

12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” 19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”​
‭‭
• Ezekiel 28:14-15, Ezekiel 28:18

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”

“Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”
B. Destruction of the Entity Known As "Death":

• 1 Corinthians 15:26

“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”

...
 
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Why did God create a place like hell to put "damned souls and spirits" in it? Isnt it more merciful to control/alt/delete those souls from creation instead of punishing them and making them suffer forever?

God is into Fair Justice.

"Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."
(Matthew 5:25-26).

If the God of ECT was true, the above verse would say: Truly, I tell you, you will never get out and no amount of money you will ever pay will release you because of your sins done against me. But that's not what Matthew 5:25-26 says.

Luke 12:48 also confirms God is into fair justice, as well.

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:48).​

If the God of ECT was true, then all wicked people will be beaten equally for all eternity regardless of whether they committed things worthy of stripes or not.
 
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I think folks need to rethink their theologies based upon God being good, fair, and just in everything He does. Nobody who has logically thought it through will say that fair justice is: To punish a person for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes. That is not fair justice but that is overkill, and sadistic. God is love. God is not wrath. Granted, God can certainly be wrathful, but not at the expense of His loving and good character.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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Why did God create a place like hell to put "damned souls and spirits" in it? Isnt it more merciful to control/alt/delete those souls from creation instead of punishing them and making them suffer forever?

There is no eternal punishment, there is the eternal fire, there is punishment, there is the turning upside down, where those who had it good, have it bad... and those who had it bad, have it good. But, not to exploit them, as it was, in the old, bad world. But, to save them.

However, not everyone will believe this, many are all too willing to believe the worst, and have no problem with eternal torment for most of the earth's population. A fate which they will have to reconcile the truth of, as the days progress.

The nothings of this world will be empowered, like the stars shining in the sky, shaming the somethings. Equality will be found, and global repentance of a staggering magnitude -- after the lawless one is destroyed. (Figured in Revelation, after 'Babylon falls', after 'the beast' and 'the false prophet' are thrown into the 'lake of fire'.)

These concepts, misreadings, came from those who ran a very cold, heartless, dark environment, and persists, because those same systems persist. That Day will not come until those systems destroy themselves.

(The last ones, the lawless one, will be destroyed by their own actions, but destroyed by Christ and the unbelievable to the earth magnificence of the glory of the Kingdom. Kingdom come, on earth, as it is in Heaven. Jesus returns with innumerable Holy Ones.)
 
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Why did God create a place like hell to put "damned souls and spirits" in it? Isnt it more merciful to control/alt/delete those souls from creation instead of punishing them and making them suffer forever?

But does Bible say people suffer eternally? I don’t think so. Bible tells:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

I think what is destroyed, doesn’t live and what does not live, doesn’t suffer.
 
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FineLinen

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I think folks need to rethink their theologies based upon God being good, fair, and just in everything He does. Nobody who has logically thought it through will say that fair justice is: To punish a person for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes. That is not fair justice but that is overkill, and sadistic. God is love. God is not wrath. Granted, God can certainly be wrathful, but not at the expense of His loving and good character.

Dear Jason: we know a remarkable man of God. Many years ago while still in the clutches of eternal damnation, the Lord spoke into his depths>>>>>"Do you really believe that of Me?"

John Gavazzoni

Index Of The 2018 Writings Of John Gavazzoni

The Fullest Meaning of Christ's Indwelling

Quid Pro Quo? No, NO! NO!!

A Call to (Major) Repentance

With Discontinuance Comes Dissonance

Inept False Witness

Wrath

Gehenna: Yes; Hell: No

Death: Yes; Hell: No

Proclamation vs Exhortation

On the Receiving End

He Comes; He Calls; We Follow

Staking Out a Claim in Godness Territory

All Things Are Of God

There's Clearly a Difference

Peeks into a Refreshed Orthodoxy

The Judgment of God

Regarding John G.

Testimony: John Gavazzoni
 
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FineLinen

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I think folks need to rethink their theologies based upon God being good, fair, and just in everything He does. Nobody who has logically thought it through will say that fair justice is: To punish a person for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes. That is not fair justice but that is overkill, and sadistic. God is love. God is not wrath. Granted, God can certainly be wrathful, but not at the expense of His loving and good character.

Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy; for thou renderest to every man according to his work.--PSALM lxii. 12.

Some of the translators make it kindness and goodness; but I presume there is no real difference among them as to the character of the word which here, in the English Bible, is translated mercy.

The religious mind, however, educated upon the theories yet prevailing in the so-called religious world, must here recognize a departure from the presentation to which they have been accustomed: to make the psalm speak according to prevalent theoretic modes, the verse would have to be changed thus:

--'To thee, O Lord, belongeth justice, for thou renderest to every man according to his work.'

Let the reason of my choosing this passage, so remarkable in itself, for a motto to the sermon which follows, remain for the present doubtful. I need hardly say that I mean to found no logical argument upon it.

Let us endeavour to see plainly what we mean when we use the word justice, and whether we mean what we ought to mean when we use it--especially with reference to God. Let us come nearer to knowing what we ought to understand by justice, that is, the justice of God; for his justice is the live, active justice, giving existence to the idea of justice in our minds and hearts. Because he is just, we are capable of knowing justice; it is because he is just, that we have the idea of justice so deeply imbedded in us.

Continued below

Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: Justice
 
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FineLinen

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I do believe that the Bible shows the lost will be for eternity cast into the lake of fire and tormented there. They will not be consumed into ashes.

John 3:3 shows that except a man is born again- He cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:36 shows the believers hath everlasting life. The unbelievers as the wrath of God-abideth-on them and shall not
see life.

Dear Vin: Being born anew is a fact. "God is the Saviour of ALL mankind, especially those who believe/trust in Him. Command this & teach this", is also a fact. "I will draw all mankind unto Me" is a fact. The angelic announcement of our Saviour's birth & "glad tidings which shall be to ALL people is a fact. The polus "made sinners" in Adam1 is a fact. The identical polus "made righteous" is also a fact with "all the more added" in the Last Adam.

My friend, read Romans 5 before your Father to behold the comparison.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has crowned us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ; even as, in His love, he chose us as His own in Christ before the creation of the world, that we might be holy and without blemish in His presence.

For He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure-- to the praise of the splendour of His grace with which He has enriched us in the beloved One. It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will.

And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him..."
 
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