Was 1948 the Regathering of Israel in Bible Prophecy?

BABerean2 · Dec 2, 2018

Biblewriter said:
But, as to what Dispensationalists do or do not believe, you did not learn much when you called yourself a dispensationalist.

When my past Sunday-school teacher asked us to read "Things to Come" by Dr. Dwight Pentecost, I saw the doctrine for what it really is...

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Biblewriter · Dec 2, 2018

BABerean2 said:
When my past Sunday-school teacher asked us to read "Things to Come" by Dr. Dwight Pentecost, I saw the doctrine for what it really is...

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Dwight Pentecost did much damage to the understanding of end time prophecy. He took the studies from his past, and modified them to fit his interpretation of the meanings of a few passages. But in the process he failed to take into account many explicitly stated prophecies that showed his interpretations of these few passages to be incorrect.

Danoh · Dec 2, 2018

Biblewriter said:
This is just more disinformation, falsely pretending that Dispensationalism is new. The very oldest surviving Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) clearly taught that "the Jews" would be brought back to their land, and after being brought back they would be converted.

And both that document and the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on scripture (as opposed to a commentary on a scriptural subject) very clearly taught that the seventieth week (of Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks) remained to be fulfilled in the future.

So, in actual fact, Dispensationalism is as old as the church itself.

In addition, you have, as usual, accused us of teaching things we neither teach or believe.

Exactly.

For you have long since proven his errors...

Edward Irving;s Historicism

Rom. 5:6-8

Choose Wisely · Dec 2, 2018

keras said:
God will do it, He knows who His people are;

He will not forget his ELECT.

keras said:
Amos 9:9 He will assign His Christian people to the tribe most suited to each individuals characteristics. He will assign some to be His Levies;

When you make up statements like this it's easy to see why you are wandering around in total confusion. If we look at the other verses we can clearly see that God is talking about the nation of Israel and not the Gentiles.
Amos 9
8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord.
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.

keras said:
Isaiah 66:21 and some to be His priests and co-rulers;

Again.........when we read the other verses we can see that you are pulling things out of context. It really puzzles why some of you insist on making things up. You create a doctrine based on pulling verses out of context. I'm not sure what the purpose is unless you are trying to fool yourself because you have to realize the context.
Isa 66
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.

keras said:
Revelation 5:9-10

So is your goal to prove a pretribulation rapture of the church as we clearly see people in heaven from every every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. And we see they are in heaven before the seals are opened.
Rev 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

keras said:
O ye of little Bible knowledge!

O ye of little Biblical context

DavidPT · Dec 2, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
He will not forget his ELECT.

Speaking of elect, who do you think Jesus is meaning by the elect in the Discourse?

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Let's consider Matthew 24:24. What is this telling us about the elect meant here? It's telling us that the elect have to be someone not already deceived. Someone doesn't try and deceive someone already deceived, they try and deceive someone not already deceived. Can't be meaning unbelieving Jews then. But it can be meaning believing Jews though. But what are believing Jews? Are they not Christians? What are Christians? Are they not the church? What is the church? Is it not both believing Jews and believing Gentiles? Shouldn't that clearly mean the elect in the Discourse must mean the church then? I think so.

Choose Wisely · Dec 2, 2018

DavidPT said:
Speaking of elect, who do you think Jesus is meaning by the elect in the Discourse?

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Let's consider Matthew 24:24. What is this telling us about the elect meant here? It's telling us that the elect have to be someone not already deceived. Someone doesn't try and deceive someone already deceived, they try and deceive someone not already deceived. Can't be meaning unbelieving Jews then. But it can be meaning believing Jews though. But what are believing Jews? Are they not Christians? What are Christians? Are they not the church? What is the church? Is it not both believing Jews and believing Gentiles? Shouldn't that clearly mean the elect in the Discourse must mean the church then? I think so.

Who are the elect in this case? They are the church that is gathered from heaven.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

And they are the twelve tribes that are gathered from the earth.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This verse has to be talking about the twelve tribes as the church will already be raptured as the church will escape ALL THE THINGS that will come to pass.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The church will escape all the things that will come to pass.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

BABerean2 · Dec 2, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
Who are the elect in this case? They are the church that is gathered from heaven.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

And they are the twelve tribes that are gathered from the earth.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This verse has to be talking about the twelve tribes as the church will already be raptured as the church will escape ALL THE THINGS that will come to pass.

Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

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Choose Wisely · Dec 2, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

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Okay, I agree with you that there will be a pretribulation rapture. As to the twelve tribes I guess we somewhat agree.

keras · Dec 2, 2018

Biblewriter said:
But it says nothing about an end time program for the "Jews."

The 'Jews' are the House of Judah, which comprises the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin; plus some of Levi and a few 'strangers' from the other tribes and foreigners.

I find it very strange that you fail to see the many prophesies that tell of the final Judgement of the House of Judah and their virtual demise. There are more that 20 specific prophesies that describe the final decimation of the Jews. They have had nearly 2000 years to repent and get right with God. They refuse to do so and God will destroy them; smash them like clay pots. Jeremiah 19:1-15, Isaiah 6:11-13, Ezekiel 21:1-7, + proved by Romans 9:27...only a remnant will be saved.

Biblewriter · Dec 2, 2018

keras said:
The 'Jews' are the House of Judah, which comprises the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin; plus some of Levi and a few 'strangers' from the other tribes and foreigners.

I find it very strange that you fail to see the many prophesies that tell of the final Judgement of the House of Judah and their virtual demise. There are more that 20 specific prophesies that describe the final decimation of the Jews. They have had nearly 2000 years to repent and get right with God. They refuse to do so and God will destroy them; smash them like clay pots. Jeremiah 19:1-15, Isaiah 6:11-13, Ezekiel 21:1-7, + proved by Romans 9:27...only a remnant will be saved.

I did not say anything about the judgment of the house of Judah. I was speaking of the usage of a term.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 2, 2018

keras said:
If you really think that God will redeem the citizens of the State of Israel, who are 50% atheists and the rest a mish-mash of Judaism, LBGT and Muslim, then you have a very wrong belief of the teachings of Jesus.
The New Testament sequence is plain: the Jews had the opportunity to keep the Kingdom, but they rejected and killed Jesus. The parable of the Landowner, Matthew 21:33-43, is just what happened then and the result is the Kingdom was taken from them.
It now belongs to the nation [peoples] who bear the proper fruit; that is: every faithful, born again Christian from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10

It is total unbiblical nonsense to say that the Jews have any kind of special place with God. Many prophesies tell of their Judgement and virtual demise.

keras said:
The question of who is Israel, is a difficult one. Christians are Israelites by faith, Galatians 3:26-29
jgr is correct in that genetically, we are all one people. But Amos 9:9 makes it clear that God knows who all the true Israelites are.
Remember that the House of Judah and the House of Israel separated soon after King Solomon. They have not yet rejoined; proved by the blessings promised in Ezekiel 37, remain unfulfilled.

So Israel is not the Church, but all of God's faithful people; every born again Christian, from every tribe, race, nation and language, are the true church and the true Israel. Galatians 6:14-16, Revelation 5:9-10
THEY; WE, are the inheritors of the holy Land, Ephesians 3:6, and of the Kingdom. Luke 12:32

keras said:
The 'Jews' are the House of Judah, which comprises the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin; plus some of Levi and a few 'strangers' from the other tribes and foreigners.

I find it very strange that you fail to see the many prophesies that tell of the final Judgement of the House of Judah and their virtual demise. There are more that 20 specific prophesies that describe the final decimation of the Jews. They have had nearly 2000 years to repent and get right with God. They refuse to do so and God will destroy them; smash them like clay pots. Jeremiah 19:1-15, Isaiah 6:11-13, Ezekiel 21:1-7, + proved by Romans 9:27...only a remnant will be saved.

Good posts.
Not forgetting that 4 of the sons of Jacob/Israel were born of the 2 maid-servants of Rachel and Leah.

The Priestly tribe of Levi was joined with Judah and Benjamin[the Apostle Paul's tribe] to form the Southern Kingdom of Judah.

In essence, Judah and Benjamin appear to be only entitled to 2 plots of land in Israel.
[I believe the Levites are apportioned some land in each of those divisions? Numbers 35]

According to the map below, Jerusalem appears to be in Benjamin's land and outside of Judah.
Judah practically takes up the whole southern half of the country of Israel[the tribe of Simeon is also included it looks like].

The other tribes of Israel/Jacob, including non-Jewish Israelites and Christians, get the entire land east, west and north of Benjamin.

My oh my.........

Jeremiah 1:15
For behold! I am calling
all the families of the Kingdoms of the North,” says the LORD;
“They shall come and each one set his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem,
Against all its walls all around, And against all the cities of Judah.
[Luke 19:31-44 Luke 21:20-24 Revelation 17:12-18 ]

Daniel 11
15 “So the king of the North shall come and build a siege mound, and take a fortified city; and the forces[fn] of the South shall not withstand him.
40 “At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him;
and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships;
and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through.

Interesting that Dan and Ephraim are in the middle [those tribes are missing in Revelation 7]

.................

Kingdom of Judah - Wikipedia

The Kingdom of Judah (Hebrew: מַמְלֶכֶת יְהוּדָה‬ Mamléḵeṯ Yehudāh; Akkadian: Ya'uda; Aramaic: ‬‬‬‬‎ bytdwd) was an Iron Age kingdom of the Southern Levant.

According to the Hebrew Bible, the kingdom of Judah resulted from the break-up of the United Kingdom of Israel (1020 to about 930 BCE) after the northern tribes refused to accept Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, as their king.
At first, only the tribe of Judah remained loyal to the house of David, but soon after the tribe of Benjamin joined Judah.
The two kingdoms, Judah in the south and Israel in the north, coexisted uneasily after the split until the destruction of the Kingdom of Israel by Assyria in c. 722/721.

The major theme of the Hebrew Bible's narrative is the loyalty of Judah, and especially its kings, to Yahweh, which it states is the God of Israel. Accordingly, all the kings of Israel and almost all the kings of Judah were "bad", which in terms of Biblical narrative means that they failed to enforce monotheism.

Of the "good" kings, Hezekiah (727–698 BCE) is noted for his efforts at stamping out idolatry (in this case, the worship of Baal and Asherah, among other traditional Near Eastern divinities),[15] but his successors, Manasseh of Judah (698–642 BCE) and Amon (642–640 BCE), revived idolatry, drawing down on the kingdom the anger of Yahweh. King Josiah (640–609 BCE) returned to the worship of Yahweh alone, but his efforts were too late and Israel's unfaithfulness caused God to permit the kingdom's destruction by the Neo-Babylonian Empire in the Siege of Jerusalem (587 BCE).

For the first sixty years, the kings of Judah tried to re-establish their authority over the northern kingdom, and there was perpetual war between them.

Israel and Judah were in a state of war throughout Rehoboam's seventeen-year reign. Rehoboam built elaborate defenses and strongholds, along with fortified cities. In the fifth year of Rehoboam's reign, Shishak, pharaoh of Egypt, brought a huge army and took many cities.

In the sack of Jerusalem (10th century BCE), Rehoboam gave them all of the treasures out of the temple as a tribute and Judah became a vassal state of Egypt.[/quote]

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usexpat97 · Dec 3, 2018

Who are the elect in this case? They are the church that is gathered from heaven.

People who accept Christ as their Lord, but got fooled into believing someone ELSE is God's chosen people? Who watched a few too many televangelists preaching that Israel is this wonderful fulfillment of prophecy, and therefore we must support them? Only to have Israel turn around and usher forth their own false messiah and cause all the plagues Jesus said would happen...thanks to the help of those very elect?

That fits the bill as Jesus described it.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 3, 2018

usexpat97 said:
People who accept Christ as their Lord, but got fooled into believing someone ELSE is God's chosen people? Who watched a few too many televangelists preaching that Israel is this wonderful fulfillment of prophecy, and therefore we must support them? Only to have Israel turn around and usher forth their own false messiah and cause all the plagues Jesus said would happen...thanks to the help of those very elect?
That fits the bill as Jesus described it.

And those that Christ has chosen/accepted.......the firstfruits

Matthew 24:3
He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `be tell us! when? shall these be
and what? the sign of Thy Parousia<3952>,
and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV<5055> of the Age?'

1 Corinthians 15
23 and each in their proper order, a first-fruit<536> Christ,
afterwards those who are the Christ’s, in His parousia<3952>,
24 then — the end<5056>,........

Luke 21:27
‘And then they shall see the Son of Man, coming in a cloud, with power and much glory;

The harvest of the sheep/wheat and goats/tares:

Revelation 14:14
And I looked and behold! a white cloud and upon the cloud like-as a Son of Man sitting, having a golden crown upon His head and in His hand, a sharp sickle

Revelation 11:12
And they hear a great Voice out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!
And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud and their enemies behold them.

Revelation 14:4
These are those with women not polluted, for virgins they are,
these are the ones following to the Lambkin where ever it may be *leading,
these are purchased from the men a firstfruit/aparch <536> to the God and to the Lambkin.

First Fruits - Wikipedia

Christian perspective
Although some Christian churches do celebrate harvest time, the idea of giving the First Fruits to the church has been for the large part not actively observed in Western Christianity.
In Eastern Orthodox Christianity, the 'first fruits' tradition is kept during the Great Feast for the Transfiguration of Our Lord, held on August 6/19.

In the Canonical Gospels, the concept of the harvest of First Fruits is used metaphorically and allegorically.
In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus is described as stating that “in the time of harvest” he would instruct the harvesters (i.e., the angels) to gather the “tares”, bind them into bundles, and burn them, but to "gather the wheat into [his] barn" (Matthew 13:30).

Some argue that this teaching is about the Last Judgment rather than offering any thanksgiving to a deity, the “tares” being sinners or unbelievers of God and his son Jesus and the “wheat” being believers of God, although it also fits the rapture as noted in (Matthew 24:31) and (Revelation 14:4).

Hebrew perspective
Main article: Bikkurim (First-fruits)
In Ancient Israel, First Fruits was a type of offering that was akin to, but distinct from, terumah gedolah. While terumah gedolah was an agricultural tithe, the First-fruits, discussed in the Bikkurim tractate of the Talmud, were a sacrificial gift brought up to the altar (Bikkurim 3:12). The major obligation to bring First Fruits (henceforth: Bikkurim) to the Temple began at the festival of Shavuot and continued until the festival of Sukkot (Bikkurim 1:6).

This tithe was limited to the traditional seven agricultural products (wheat, barley, grapes in the form of wine, figs, pomegranates, olives in the form of oil, and dates) grown in Israel.[6] This tithe, and the associated festival of Shavuot, is legislated by the Torah.[7] Textual critics speculate that these regulations were imposed long after the offerings and festival had developed..........

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DavidPT · Dec 3, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The church will escape all the things that will come to pass.

So who is the elect meaning here if not the church? Let me guess. It's meaning those that were left behind after the rapture of the church prior to the GT, and that they become saved, thus no longer deceived. Even if that were true, though it isn't, if they become saved that makes them of the church unless you want to claim one can become saved post Christ's death and resurrection, yet not be part of the church. And guess what? These left behinders, once they are saved after the rapture of the church, they go through the GT since there would be no rapture to spare them of this if the rapture already occurred. Either way you look at it, the church goes through the GT after all, yet Pretribbers are claiming it doesn't. Pretrib is a contradiction. No contradiction could possibly be of the truth.

Choose Wisely · Dec 3, 2018

DavidPT said:
So who is the elect meaning here if not the church?

As I told you, the elect in Matt 24:24 is the twelve tribes.

DavidPT said:
Let me guess.

Okay, you may guess.

DavidPT said:
It's meaning those that were left behind after the rapture of the church prior to the GT, and that they become saved, thus no longer deceived.

Wrong guess. They are the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. God will keep his promise to His people. Gods ELECT will be provoked to jealousy when the church is raptured. When that happens.............how much more their fullness.

Rom 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

DavidPT said:
Even if that were true, though it isn't, if they become saved that makes them of the church unless you want to claim one can become saved post Christ's death and resurrection, yet not be part of the church.

We agree. What you think.......that I think, though I don't......isn't true.

DavidPT said:
And guess what? These left behinders, once they are saved after the rapture of the church, they go through the GT since there would be no rapture to spare them of this if the rapture already occurred.

When the bridegroom comes for His church you best be ready because.....

Matt 25
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

DavidPT said:
Either way you look at it, the church goes through the GT after all, yet Pretribbers are claiming it doesn't. Pretrib is a contradiction. No contradiction could possibly be of the truth.

The church does not go through the tribulation. Noak is in the ark.......with the doors shut.....7 days before the flood. The church is raptured pre trib. The ELECT that you see in Matt 24:24 are the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth. They go through the tribulation but are raptured before the wrath of God. God is going to do EXACTLY what He says He would do.

Choose Wisely · Dec 3, 2018

usexpat97 said:
People who accept Christ as their Lord, but got fooled into believing someone ELSE is God's chosen people? Who watched a few too many televangelists preaching that Israel is this wonderful fulfillment of prophecy, and therefore we must support them? Only to have Israel turn around and usher forth their own false messiah and cause all the plagues Jesus said would happen...thanks to the help of those very elect?

That fits the bill as Jesus described it.

So Israel is going to cause all the plagues that Jesus said would happen? I didn't know that. Can you provide chapter and verse on that information as I would like to do a detailed study on this?

DavidPT · Dec 3, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
As I told you, the elect in Matt 24:24 is the twelve tribes.

Okay, you may guess.

Wrong guess. They are the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. God will keep his promise to His people. Gods ELECT will be provoked to jealousy when the church is raptured. When that happens.............how much more their fullness.

Rom 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

We agree. What you think.......that I think, though I don't......isn't true.

When the bridegroom comes for His church you best be ready because.....

Matt 25
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

The church does not go through the tribulation. Noak is in the ark.......with the doors shut.....7 days before the flood. The church is raptured pre trib. The ELECT that you see in Matt 24:24 are the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth. They go through the tribulation but are raptured before the wrath of God. God is going to do EXACTLY what He says He would do.

As to the 12 tribes.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

It's pretty obvious to some of us that the church is meant here. And this was already the case some 2000 years ago.

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Still speaking to these same brethren that he addressed as brethren in verse 2 of chapter 1, after greeting them, addressing them as the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad.

Let me ask this then. Let's say that there is a rapture of the church before the GT. And let's say, instead of the rapture having yet to occur, it occurs in James day during the time he is addressing the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad. Regardless that this is only hypothetical, the fact no such rapture took place at that time, but let's say had it, these that James is addressing, the twelve tribes scattered abroad, would they have been included in the rapture, or would they have been left behind?

usexpat97 · Dec 3, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
So Israel is going to cause all the plagues that Jesus said would happen? I didn't know that. Can you provide chapter and verse on that information as I would like to do a detailed study on this?

Do you have any UN-loaded questions you would like help with?

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 3, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
So Israel is going to cause all the plagues that Jesus said would happen? I didn't know that. Can you provide chapter and verse on that information as I would like to do a detailed study on this?

Actually it was more like the corrupt murderous Judean rulers .......
Remember the NC also included a change of Priesthood to one of Spirit.....

Mat 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath to come?
Luk 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being wrath to come?

G1067 γέεννα (geenna), occurs 12 times in 12 verses

Matthew 23:
15 Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
That ye are going about the sea and the dry to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming, ye are making him a son of geennhV<1067> twofold-more of ye-selves
33 "Serpents! brood of vipers!
how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>
[Ezekiel 39:12/Reve 14:11]

Revelation 14:11
And the Smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.......... [Ezekiel 39:12/Luke 16:24,26]

Matthew 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!

Revelation 19:3
And a second-time they have declared "allelouia
and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages".
[Ezekiel 22:17-22 Luke 21:22-23]

Is the GREAT CITY in Revelation symbolizing the LAKE OF FIRE?

1067. geena of Hebrew origin (1516 and 2011);
valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom),
a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:--hell

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Soṭah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

Yet opinions on this point vary. According to some sources, it was created on the second day; according to others, even before the world, only its fire being created on the second day (Gen. R. iv., end; Pes. 54a).
The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna)....
The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a)......................

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jgr · Dec 3, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
As I told you, the elect in Matt 24:24 is the twelve tribes.

Okay, you may guess.

Wrong guess. They are the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. God will keep his promise to His people. Gods ELECT will be provoked to jealousy when the church is raptured. When that happens.............how much more their fullness.

Rom 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

We agree. What you think.......that I think, though I don't......isn't true.

When the bridegroom comes for His church you best be ready because.....

Matt 25
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

The church does not go through the tribulation. Noak is in the ark.......with the doors shut.....7 days before the flood. The church is raptured pre trib. The ELECT that you see in Matt 24:24 are the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth. They go through the tribulation but are raptured before the wrath of God. God is going to do EXACTLY what He says He would do.

The New Testament elect are exclusively the faithful and obedient who have placed their trust in Christ.

Luke 18:7
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

Was 1948 the Regathering of Israel in Bible Prophecy?

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

kewlness

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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