Well, technically, Mary interceded with God for a young couple in Cana...
I agree. Mary is surely powerful. Because of God.
Upvote
0
PRAYING TO MARY AND THE SAINTS?
- Thread starter LoveGodsWord
- Start date
I agree. Mary is surely powerful. Because of God.
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
Sorry brother prodromos, I am just being honest with you. If I was not then I would not be doing my duty of love to you as my brother and fulfilling my duty of love to God. It is God's WORD that says that seeking help from the dead is an abomination to God *DEUTERONOMY 18:9-12 not me.
This practice has it's origin from paganism linked. There is no scripture telling us anywhere in God's WORD that we are to pray to the dead. Then what makes you think that it is now alright to pray to Mary and the saints that are all dead? Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it.
Well that is not true brother praying to the dead does indeed have pagan origins linked. Can you please show me one scripture that says we or Jesus or any of the Apostles in the new Testament prayed to the dead? If there is no scripture what makes you think it is now acceptable with God when he calls the practice an abomination in the old testament?
Brother, JAMES 5:16 says Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. This scripture does not say that we should pray to the dead (Mary and the saints). This is talking about the living not the dead. What makes you think this scripture is saying it is now ok to pray to the dead?
Actually brother it does because it is against God's WORD and there is no scripture telling us to pray to the dead. This is a teachng that has it's origin from paganism linked.
Only sent in all love brother. There is no scripture that tells us that we should pray to the dead (Mary and the saints) and if this practice has it's orign from paganism this alone should raise red flags to us if we seek to BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD to have a closer walk with JESUS.
May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- Nov 28, 2003
- 21,576
- 12,116
- 58
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- Eastern Orthodox
- Marital Status
- Married
Yes, your passive aggressive approach is just dripping with love
You keep changing your interpretation, adding your own nuance to God's Word. I'll stick with how the Jews and the Christians have always understood it. I suggest you research what necromancy actually involved and how it was practiced. It has nothing in common with asking the prayers of the Saints.
No it doesn't, and no amount of you claiming the opposite will change that fact.
They are alive in Christ. They are as much members of His body just as are the living in the Church. When those who are in Christ pass away they do not temporarily cease to be members of His body, only to become full members again at the resurrection.
There you go again. There is no demonstrable link between pagan veneration of their ancestors and Christian veneration of the Saints. Your methodology is no different to the thoroughly debunked claims of Alexander Hislop.
When you show me one scripture that says we should engage in good dental hygiene.
Necromancy is a specific practice which attempts to force the dead to supply secret knowledge. we don't engage in any such thing, so what we do is not what God calls an abomination. We know that what we do is acceptable because God blesses the practice in abundance. I've already stated this more than once and you have not given any response.
I didn't say it did. I brought it up as the reason why the Church recognises certain people as Saints. They are recognised as the righteous ones BECAUSE their prayers ARE powerful and effective.
Once again no link is demonstrated. It is the same flawed methodology used by Hislop.
Sent in love? More like willful ignorance. I expect more of the same will follow.
Upvote
0
Yeshua HaDerekh
Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
- May 9, 2013
- 11,459
- 3,771
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Eastern Orthodox
- Marital Status
- Private
Midrash comes from the word darash. Darash in and of itself has nothing to do with the dead. It is really about trying to acquire, inquire or get an interpretation for some kind of knowledge. Darash can relate to seeking God’s guidance. There are many verbs in Hebrew for inquiring, depending on the context. You would be seeking council regarding something with the dead which is prohibited.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Yeshua HaDerekh
Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
- May 9, 2013
- 11,459
- 3,771
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Eastern Orthodox
- Marital Status
- Private
Agreed. Something similar to what Saul did by asking the witch of Endor to conjure Samuel...
Upvote
0
Yeshua HaDerekh
Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
- May 9, 2013
- 11,459
- 3,771
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Eastern Orthodox
- Marital Status
- Private
I do not know regarding the RCC. As Prodromos said above, I think you are confusing asking the dead for information or praying TO them with asking Saints to pray FOR us. Shalom and Shavua Tov!
Upvote
0
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
Sorry brother I do not understand your point here? I have not been agressive with you whatsoever. I have only shared God's WORD with you. You are free to believe as you wish. I only asked you where does it say in the scriptures that we are to pray to the dead (Mary and the saints). If you have no scripture just say so. No need to be upset.
Not really brother. I have not changed my interopretation of God's Word at all. Please show me where I have done this? If you cannot why say it? The Jews and Christians have not always practices praying to the dead and there is no scripture for this practice anywhere in God's WORD. The practice has it's origin from paganism as shown earlier linked.
This has nothing to do with the dead and the living. Just as King Saul did the wrong thing by trying to contact the dead prophet Sammual.
Well that is not treu brother. You did not read the linked post from wiki did you on the vernation of the dead and the variations of this pagan practice which includes praying to the dead? linked click me.
So I guess that is a no. You have no scripture that says we are to pray to the dead (Mary and the saints)? If you have no scripture why do it?
As shown earlier, the Hebrew word NACROMANCY is דּרשׁ; dârash means to seek or ask or inquire of the dead. The scriptures say it is an abomination in God's eyes *DEUTERONOMY 18:9-12. Praying to the dead has its origin in many pagan cultures linked click me. That is why I was asking earlier where is the scripture that says we are to pray to the dead (Mary and the saints). Seems there is no scripture.
Do you need to be recognised as a saint by the church before you become a saint? Where does it teach this in God's WORD?
Willful ignorance is when one turns away from God's WORD brother in order to follow something God's WORD does not endorse. I have only shared God's Word with you in respect and love. If you have no scripture for praying to the dead just say so. There is no need to be upset we can always agree to disagree. We are all only held accountable to God come judgment day.
May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.
Upvote
0
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
Indeed thanks for sharing but the context is to הַמֵּתִֽים (ham·me·tim.) which is the dead or died which is then to mean to enquire of the dead; necromancer.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Yeshua HaDerekh
Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
- May 9, 2013
- 11,459
- 3,771
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Eastern Orthodox
- Marital Status
- Private
No, that is not true. Doresh el ha metim are those who question or inquire of the dead...necromancers.
Upvote
0
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
That is what I said please read the post above yours. I posted doresh to emphesise the enquiring part of the scripture דּרשׁ; dârash the context is of the dead הַמֵּתִֽים (ham·me·tim.), necromancer. For me I see this can have application to prayers to the dead which is a variation of the pagan practices shown in the linked wiki site to the veneration of the dead (linked).
Last edited:
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
Really? Please provide a post where I have ever disprespected or verbally bashed Catholics? If you cannot provide a post where I have verbally bashed catholics than why make false statements that are not true? I believe God's people are in every Church. I will leave that between you and God. I have already forgiven you. Do you have anything to add to the discussion?
May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.
Upvote
0
Yeshua HaDerekh
Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
- May 9, 2013
- 11,459
- 3,771
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Eastern Orthodox
- Marital Status
- Private
Yes, you changed it AFTER I wrote mine. You said Darash initially. I gave you the whole term in Hebrew and then you changed your post. You are being deceptive...
You wrote "As shown earlier, the Hebrew word NACROMANCY is דּרשׁ; dârash means to seek or ask or inquire of the dead."
The Hebrew word for necromancy IS NOT Darash.
Upvote
0
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
Brother why pick at straws to make smoke screens? The post you were quoting from has not been changed since your post. So please do not make claims that are not true. Further clarification was provided to you in post # 152 and post # 154 linked which you are now quoting from (you posted from the same quote from post # 141 twice).
Perhaps by not adding הַמֵּתִֽים ham·me·tim with דּרשׁ; dârash to my first post (#141) made what I was trying to say there unclear for you? If that is the case please accept my apologies and my clarification in post # 152; 154 and elsewhere. I am sure though you knew what the post was referring to if you know Hebrew especially once given clarification right?
Now brother back to my point, where is the scripture in God's WORD that says that we are to pray to the dead (Mary and the saints). If you cannot find one just be honest and say so. We do not have to agree on everything as we can always agree to disagree and remain brothers in Christ right? I see this as only a friendly discussion.
May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
What was posted here could have been worded better to add both Hebrew words הַמֵּתִֽים ham·me·tim with דּרשׁ; dârash so there was no confusion. Sorry late my time and this is pasted from the first post emphasizing to inquire of the dead (prayer to the dead) to save time.
Yes and no. It is both הַמֵּתִֽים ham·me·tim with דּרשׁ; dârash that is necromancy. Together they mean to inquire of the dead.
Regardless if I did not post הַמֵּתִֽים ham·me·tim with דּרשׁ; dârash in post # 141, dârash was posted to emphesize the inquiring part of the scripture in reference to prayers to the dead. For me I see DEUTERONOMY 18:11-12 and a necromancer can have application to prayers to the dead which includes Mary and the saints as praying to the dead is seeking to have contact with the dead because it is the dead you are praying or inquiring to.
That is why it was posted. Your post in relation to הַמֵּתִֽים ham·me·tim which I responded to I already agreed with but wanted to show context of דּרשׁ; dârash was therefore inquiring to the dead; necromancer.
Another words trying to contact the dead through prayer could be viewed as performing the duty of a necromancer because by praying to the dead your trying to communicate to the dead. Looking at the Hebrew word meaning what is the difference between someone praying and trying to communicate to the dead and a necromancer?
May God bless you as you seek him through his Word. (Very late my time 99).
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- May 19, 2018
- 10,996
- 11,743
- Country
- United Kingdom
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Single
Where does it say in the Bible that we cannot pray to Mary or the saints specifically?
Upvote
0
Yeshua HaDerekh
Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
- May 9, 2013
- 11,459
- 3,771
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Eastern Orthodox
- Marital Status
- Private
My post was that the word darash does NOT mean necromancy because that is what you said originally.
Upvote
0
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
DEUTERONOMY 18:11-12 we are not to try to communicate to the dead. See also next section.
Indeed it is both Hebrew words הַמֵּתִֽים ham·me·tim with דּרשׁ; dârash that make up necromancy. I already agreed with you in the first reply. Together they mean to inquire of the dead. My focus was on דּרשׁ; dârash to emphesize the inquiring part of the scripture in reference to prayers to the dead (Mary and the saints).
DEUTERONOMY 18:11-12 words for necromancer have application to prayers to the dead which can includes Mary and the saints because praying to the dead is seeking to have contact with the dead because it is the dead you are praying or inquiring to.
Another words trying to contact the dead through prayer could be viewed as performing the duty of a necromancer because by praying to the dead your trying to communicate to the dead.
Looking at the Hebrew word meanings what is the difference between someone praying and trying to communicate to the dead and a necromancer when that is the role of a necromancer?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
May God bless you as you seek him through his Word
Last edited:
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
Sure no problem DEUTERONOMY 18:11-12 we are not to try to communicate to the dead as it is an abomination in God's eyes. Please also read post # 162 maybe you missed it.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
