Women Priests/Pastors

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Strong in Him

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I’ll answer for me. I read it a lot of different ways, literally (which requires some foreign language study, because some parts don’t say in Hebrew or Greek what they are made to say in English), metaphorically, allegorically, as law, as written tradition.

Agreed.
There are many kinds of writing in the Bible - history, poetry, prophecy, apocalyptic writings and so on. Some of them are meant to be read, and understood, literally; some are poetic or picture language and express a truth, but the words themselves are not to be understood literally - eg Jesus was not literally a vine, he was a man.

Since I’m a Catholic, obviously I don’t think it’s the final authority on anything, or the final revelations of God. But there’s quite a bit in it that it is useful and good.

It's the final authority on doctrine and the faith.
If someone says "God is like .... and we need to do .... to get to heaven", the question is; is that what Scripture says? If not, we can reject it.
That doesn't mean that God can't speak to us today, lead us to a certain job, a certain church, to marry a certain person etc. Those kinds of answers aren't in Scripture; it's a question of personal guidance.
 
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Just Another User

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Just Another User,

Why don't you examine the meaning of 'authority' in 1 Tim 2:12? What kind of authority is forbidden to women?

Exousia is the regular Greek word for authority. It is not used in this verse. Instead, it's the infinitive, authentein, and here is the only time it appears in the entire NT.

So what does this different word for authority mean? That should help us in exegesis of the verse and what kind of authority women are forbidden to use.

Oz

That's a really interesting point. Despite the fact that I said I wouldn't comment personally, I don't have a problem whatsoever with women being in such positions of authority. I think it should be encouraged even with some people in my local area being mildly against it. I'm yet to see someone who's fully against the idea of women vicars/ pastors. I did quite a bit of research on the part in 1 Corinthians where it says that women should be silent. Clearly it wasn't meant for all churches and only specific women in the church that were disturbing the Christians meeting. I believed this also fit with Paul's language in his other letters.

I've always assumed the same for 1 Timothy where it only refers to certain women in the church it's send to. The greek phrase here could further fit in with my own interpretation. Thank you for that.

Ultimately, if Jesus didn't teach on it, it is usually a non-issue except with some rare cases.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Jesus also chose twelve Jews. Does that mean that only Jews can lead worship and Gentiles can have no authority over them?
Read all of the New Testament; these men founded congregations where men (not just Jewish men) were the leaders. Read about the history of the Church prior to, and following the Council of Nicea; all of the leaders of the Church (Bishops and Pastors) are male. Female ordination is not, and never was part of the Catholic, Orthodox, Confessional Lutheran Churches; or any Church until fairly recently in history of the Church, and then only in some of the Churches that are part of what is known as the "Radical Reformation".
 
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blackhead

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Jesus also chose twelve Jews. Does that mean that only Jews can lead worship and Gentiles can have no authority over them?

In Acts we see that Gentiles are brought into the church however the scriptures never testify that women are chosen to lead God’s church.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Read all of the New Testament; these men founded congregations where men (not just Jewish men) were the leaders. Read about the history of the Church prior to, and following the Council of Nicea; all of the leaders of the Church (Bishops and Pastors) are male. Female ordination is not, and never was part of the Catholic, Orthodox, Confessional Lutheran Churches; or any Church until fairly recently in history of the Church, and then only in some of the Churches that are part of what is known as the "Radical Reformation".
That’s true, because Timothy was put over the church in Ephesus and Timothy was half Jew, half gentile.

Trained by Paul primarily
 
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Archivist

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Scripture is clear; like the Catholic Church, it is impossible in Lutheran Church Canada.
No, scripture is not clear. If it is impossible in the Lutheran Church Canada that is only because the membership refuses to allow it.
 
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Not David

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The modern office of pastor didn’t exist in Biblical times. Scripture talks about overseers, apostles, elders, deacons. I don’t think the word pastor appears more than a handful if times, and the details of the office are never described. Shephard is used, but in most cases as a verb not a noun.
There are presbyteros mentioned, even Ignatius mentioned them in his writings
 
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Strong in Him

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Read all of the New Testament; these men founded congregations where men (not just Jewish men) were the leaders.
When Paul went to Philippi, Acts 16:11-15, he went to the place of prayer where he found Lydia and other women. Lydia and all her household were baptised, and Paul stayed with her for several days - she could well have been a founder member of the church there.

Read about the history of the Church prior to, and following the Council of Nicea; all of the leaders of the Church (Bishops and Pastors) are male.

Just because they followed the Biblical example of patriarchal leadership, does that prove, or mean, that that's how God wanted it to be?
Look at how Jesus treated women; society said they were unreliable witnesses, yet he chose one to be the first witness to the resurrection. Society said they were not allowed to learn, yet he taught them. Society said that they were men's property and could be easily divorced, yet he taught that God had made both and joined the together. He revealed to a woman that he was the Messiah and allowed her to go back to her village and tell men about him. He let Mary sit at his feet and learn from him - a place assumed by the students of Rabbis. He healed, listened to, affirmed and respected women - he even accepted financial support from them.
That is how Jesus loved and valued women - and we are to follow his example and love as he did. Yet even on these forums, people say, "you are NOT called by God", "female ordination isn't valid". I have been told that I am deluded/mistaken because I testify that God called me to preach, (I'm not ordained, but some people quote 1 Timothy 2:12 to "prove" that women are not allowed to preach.)
Some areas of the church don't seem willing to accept, elevate and validate women as Jesus did; even though I would guess they all teach that we should love as Jesus did.
Shame.
 
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Vicomte13

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It's the final authority on doctrine and the faith.

No it isn't. Obviously this is the cardinal difference between Catholicism and Protesantism, so we're not going to get anywhere on this point.
 
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Paidiske

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I'm sure I'm not telling you something you don't already know, at least instinctively.

I find that I meet - in real life - many men who not only are willing to, but positively rejoice in accepting women as their equals, in ministry as in any other sphere of life. Not all of them, of course, but enough to be genuinely encouraging.

Maybe you're right in pointing to culture; I suspect Australian culture has less ideological hangups here. Possibly also I've been fortunate to mostly minister in more affluent areas where people are highly educated, and are used to working alongside women in very senior professional roles, so a woman in the pulpit doesn't seem like such a culture shock? Perhaps it would be harder in rural areas. Something to ask my colleagues about.

There are presbyteros mentioned, even Ignatius mentioned them in his writings

That would translate as elder, not pastor.
 
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Paidiske

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---Staff Edit---

Fortunately, ministry has yet to require me to physically score a touchdown or shoot a hoop (just as well, because I've never been very good at any sport). It can require a degree of physical endurance, but a healthy human being of either sex is generally going to find even the long services or long days (or weeks) within their capacity.

So once we get past physical requirements, do we see cognitive or intellectual weakness in women? A lack of emotional resilience? Lack of integrity or personal commitment?

No. Sure, there are individuals with particular deficits (in men, too, of course) but these things are not lacking from women as a group.

Arguing against the ordination of women on the basis of the inferiority of women is deeply flawed, and also likely to run afoul of CF's rules against flaming.
 
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Strong in Him

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There have been female Quaker pastors since the 1600s.

And female preachers, in the Methodist church, since the 1760's. William Booth was against women preaching the Gospel, til he heard one. Then he not only changed his mind, he married her.

In the 1300s Catherine of Siena taught cardinals and advised the Pope.
 
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OzSpen

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But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

And?? :scratch:
 
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OzSpen

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Note the use of the word “I” in verse 12. It does not say God does not suffered a woman to teach. Paul is speaking of himself.

Archivist,

Do you deny that Paul wrote 1 Timothy under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and when he wrote, 'I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet' (1 Tim 2:12 NIV), Paul taught what was applicable to all believers?

'I do not permit a woman' is a sentence that is only part of the Greek grammar of 1 Tim 2:12. There is much more to this verse than your emphasis on the first person (I) singular.

Oz
 
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Archivist

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Archivist,

Do you deny that Paul wrote 1 Timothy under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and when he wrote, 'I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet' (1 Tim 2:12 NIV), Paul taught what was applicable to all believers?

'I do not permit a woman' is a sentence that is only part of the Greek grammar of 1 Tim 2:12. There is much more to this verse than your emphasis on the first person (I) singular.

Oz

Oz,

When did I say that I denied that Paul was under the influence of the Holy Spirit? I don’t recall saying those words.

Wasn’t Peter also under the influence of the Holy Spirit? Yet we know that he and Paul disagreed.

I don’t believe that Paul was expressing anything other than his opinion in this verse, not a commandment to all people for all time.

You are, of course, free to have your own interpretation.

Archivist
 
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