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OldWiseGuy

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They do. And I rather assume they were scared of the outsider. The other. Is that what we should be like in America? Should we turn our backs on the world? Should we turn a cold shoulder to suffering?

Christians are told to "come out of" the world, and 'prefer' each other.

You're right. America is nothing. We are poverty stricken and without value. Is that what you meant to say? Or do you think America is a good place to live?

We have the appearance of great wealth, but it's all in 'hock'.

I'm the goose that lays the golden eggs. I am an upper-middle class tax payer who doesn't have a huge number of deductions. I pay a lot of money into this great country and I do so with glee and pleasure! I am wealthy beyond what I deserve. Should I not give back?

Kill the goose and the poor will have one last feast; no more eggs.
 
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PaoloPorini1972

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Kill the goose and the poor will have one last feast; no more eggs.

The GOP has been preaching this for 35+ years. It's never been true. But hey, if it helps us feel less responsibility for anyone else and gives us a reason to hold onto our treasure, then I guess it does what it has to do!
 
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Shiloh Raven

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Is it truly a misapplication of the scripture to care for those in need and the stranger?

Deuteronomy 15:11
Deuteronomy 24:14-15
Psalms 41:1
Psalms 82:3-4
Proverbs 14:21
Leviticus 19:10
Leviticus 19:33
Leviticus 23:22
Exodus 23:11
Galatians 2:10
Luke 3:10-11

I'm waiting for one of them to claim that the Old Testament scriptures are no longer in effect. But of course, that's until they want to use the Leviticus verse to condemn homosexuals or the Deuteronomy verse that states women shouldn't dress in men's clothing to condemn transgenders.
 
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Shiloh Raven

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So, we tear those pages out of the bible?

No, just your personal interpretation of those scriptures.

I've already had a lot to say about this facade of America being a Christian nation or it was founded upon Christian principles in one of my previous posts located here. Anyway, I think it's a real stretch of will to use scriptures in an effort that seems to be in an attempt to justify the hundreds of treaties the U.S. government signed with the tribal nations and then violated them all, the legal forced Indian removals, the countless massacres of native men, women and children (like Sand Creek and Wounded Knee), the death marches (like the Trail of Tears), the denying Native Americans U.S. citizenship for 148 years until 1924, the denying of religious freedom for Native Americans for 202 years until 1978, legalized slavery of black people for 89 years, and the continued denial of civil rights and equality for black people and other minorities for 99 years after slavery was finally abolished in 1865 until the Civil Rights Movement in 1964. Speaking of all the broken treaties the U.S. government violated, the U.S. government even violated its own Constitution when it violated the treaties it signed with the tribal nations because Article VI of the Constitution clearly states: "and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land" (Article VI).
 
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OldWiseGuy

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The GOP has been preaching this for 35+ years. It's never been true. But hey, if it helps us feel less responsibility for anyone else and gives us a reason to hold onto our treasure, then I guess it does what it has to do!

I give a little to charity, but hold my 'fortune' in trust for my family. Someone has to 'stand in the gap'. :holy:

How far do you want to take this? What is your plan?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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No, just your personal interpretation of those scriptures.

I've already had a lot to say about this facade of America being a Christian nation or it was founded upon Christian principles in one of my previous posts located here.

The founding fathers understood that white European culture and native culture were entirely incompatible. Early efforts to convert them were a dismal failure. That left only one option; destroy them. Ironically we have the same problem today...with crime. In order for us to survive crime must be destroyed, not accommodated as it is. Reality can be harsh.

The promises weren't made to the Christian church but to the descendants of Israel. However the church was able to thrive and grow here thanks to the freedoms, and the prosperity, of the new nation. God didn't make the promise to the church, but to a certain people. That Christianity was the basis for certain laws is understandable as that was the religion of those settlers.
 
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JosephZ

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Christians are told to "come out of" the world, and 'prefer' each other.
You do realize that many of those seeking refuge in our country are members of the body of Christ don't you? Are they just collateral damage in all of this in your opinion? We are not just turning away the stranger, but also our brothers and sisters.

Personally I think we should take all who seek refuge whether they belong to the Church or not, but since you say we should "prefer" each other, I just wanted to here your take on why it's OK to turn our back on those belonging to the Church.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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You do realize that many of those seeking refuge in our country are members of the body of Christ don't you? Are they just collateral damage in all of this in your opinion? We are not just turning away the stranger, but also our brothers and sisters.

Personally I think we should take all who seek refuge whether they belong to the Church or not, but since you say we should "prefer" each other, I just wanted to here your take on why it's OK to turn our back on those belonging to the Church.

The church isn't in charge of immigration.
You need to contact your congresspersons about this, not your pastor.
 
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JosephZ

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The church isn't in charge of immigration.
You need to contact your congresspersons about this, not your pastor.
Yes, the Church isn't in charge of immigration, but why are you defending policies that are hurting our brothers and sisters? Our president said that the persecuted Christians in the Middle East would be a priority, but we have taken in a couple of dozen out of of thousands. Many of those at our southern border right now are our brothers and sisters in Christ. Why aren't you defending them instead of a government that doesn't want them to enter its borders?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Yes, the Church isn't in charge of immigration, but why are you defending policies that are hurting our brothers and sisters? Our president said that the persecuted Christians in the Middle East would be a priority, but we have taken in a couple of dozen out of of thousands. Many of those at our southern border right now are our brothers and sisters in Christ. Why aren't you defending them instead of a government that doesn't want them to enter its borders?

I'm all in favor of legal, and limited, immigration. We have more people than we need as it is.

To your point about 'brothers and sisters'; do you know for sure that they are? I believe that the church is a spiritual organism and only God and Christ knows who they are. I cannot 'assume' someone is in the faith unless I know them personally over a period of time.
 
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JosephZ

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I'm all in favor of legal, and limited, immigration.
Seeking asylum is legal.

We have more people than we need as it is.
No we don't. Tell that to the farmers that have tens of thousands of vacant agricultural jobs and the trucking companies that have thousands of trucks sitting idle. If we had more immigrants to fill the jobs Americans aren't willing to fill our country would benefit greatly from the added productivity.

To your point about 'brothers and sisters'; do you know for sure that they are?
What would make you think that there aren't any? Out of tens of thousands, do you really believe there wouldn't be?

I provided a link to hundreds of testimonies from people fleeing central America in another thread on this subject. Some of them specifically mentioned that their faith is in Jesus Christ. There is also plenty of testimony from Pastors and missionaries that work in Honduras and some who have even embedded themselves in this caravan that talk about the faith of these people that can be found. There is no doubt that many of our brothers and sisters are being hurt by our current government policies.

I believe that the church is a spiritual organism and only God and Christ knows who they are. I cannot 'assume' someone is in the faith unless I know them personally over a period of time.
Personally I don't care if those seeking refuge in our country are Christians or not. God is giving all of us regardless what part of the world we live in an opportunity to live the gospel with the current worldwide refugee crisis. We can allow them into our homes, we can advocate for them when they arrive at our borders, we can support organizations that feed, house, and clothe them, and we can share the gospel with them if they have not yet heard. We can also stop supporting government policies and the politicians who intact policies that hurt people.

I said this in another thread, but I'm going to repeat it here.

As a missionary myself, personally I can't support turning these people away. How can missionaries and churches that support missions in these countries not accept these people when they want to seek refuge in ours?

The message the Church in America is sending to these people is "We love you when we come to you... but if you come to us, not so much."

It's quite possible that some of those seeking asylum in the US have been influenced in the past by an American missionary that worked in their community and showed them the love and compassion of Jesus Christ. How heartbreaking it must be for them to now be hearing or reading comments from American Christians saying they are not wanted in the home country of the missionary that once served in their community.

If the Church in America supports and raises money in the names of people like those fleeing Central America when they stay within their borders, but demonizes them when they are seeking asylum inside our borders, it's probably time to re-examine the American Church and missions.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Disappointed it wasn't Hillary or Soros.

I don't know but, I heard it's a group called Without Borders out of San Francisco?

Location for the group sounds about right?

M-Bob
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Seeking asylum is legal.


No we don't. Tell that to the farmers that have tens of thousands of vacant agricultural jobs and the trucking companies that have thousands of trucks sitting idle. If we had more immigrants to fill the jobs Americans aren't willing to fill our country would benefit greatly from the added productivity.


What would make you think that there aren't any? Out of tens of thousands, do you really believe there wouldn't be?

I provided a link to hundreds of testimonies from people fleeing central America in another thread on this subject. Some of them specifically mentioned that their faith is in Jesus Christ. There is also plenty of testimony from Pastors and missionaries that work in Honduras and some who have even embedded themselves in this caravan that talk about the faith of these people that can be found. There is no doubt that many of our brothers and sisters are being hurt by our current government policies.


Personally I don't care if those seeking refuge in our country are Christians or not. God is giving all of us regardless what part of the world we live in an opportunity to live the gospel with the current worldwide refugee crisis. We can allow them into our homes, we can advocate for them when they arrive at our borders, we can support organizations that feed, house, and clothe them, and we can share the gospel with them if they have not yet heard. We can also stop supporting government policies and the politicians who intact policies that hurt people.

I said this in another thread, but I'm going to repeat it here.

As a missionary myself, personally I can't support turning these people away. How can missionaries and churches that support missions in these countries not accept these people when they want to seek refuge in ours?

The message the Church in America is sending to these people is "We love you when we come to you... but if you come to us, not so much."

It's quite possible that some of those seeking asylum in the US have been influenced in the past by an American missionary that worked in their community and showed them the love and compassion of Jesus Christ. How heartbreaking it must be for them to now be hearing or reading comments from American Christians saying they are not wanted in the home country of the missionary that once served in their community.

If the Church in America supports and raises money in the names of people like those fleeing Central America when they stay within their borders, but demonizes them when they are seeking asylum inside our borders, it's probably time to re-examine the American Church and missions.

You seem to be speaking for the entire church.

Do you believe the church should be in charge of immigration? And which church?

And, not all churches have a mission in central America.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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No we don't. Tell that to the farmers that have tens of thousands of vacant agricultural jobs and the trucking companies that have thousands of trucks sitting idle. If we had more immigrants to fill the jobs Americans aren't willing to fill our country would benefit greatly from the added productivity.

We have tens of thousands of able bodied Americans sitting in college classrooms on the taxpayers dime. End the student loan programs and there will be plenty of workers to fill those jobs.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Always amusing to hear Christians fight so hard against what the Bible clearly states.

thanks for that.

You see, when I see people say the kind of thing you just said I actually find that it shows me how hollow religious faith IS! I don't want to make you feel guilty but here's what I see:

I find some of the most amazing things in the Bible that really, honestly ring true. Doing unto others as we would have them do unto us, and caring for those who have less than we all sound FANTASTIC to me! They really do! They truly are the HOLY part of the Bible. Even Christian salvation is kind of cool. The idea that no one can EARN salvation but that we must accept that we are less than our ideals and that we don't deserve to be treated better or special. That actually is fantastic! It can help to ground us to keep us humble. To remind us all that we are ALL far short of the ideal.

And it helps me to see why we should ALL care for those who have less...for the broken people on the side of the road. We can al be the good samaritan.

But yes, if "witness" for Christ requires that one denigrate the beauty in the Scripture, if ministry is be the Pharisee, the find the loopholes so that we don't ever have to feel guilty for our failures or our lack, then indeed Christianity and religious faith is empty.
Your post is nice, but does not apply to governments. You really need to re-read your Bible. When you do, please quote me the Scripture that "clearly states" it applies to governments as well as individuals. Mine doesn't say that. We are not a theocracy. It doesn't even apply to ALL individuals, only believers. Please stop spreading misinformation about Scripture and defending those who misapply it.

"thanks for that."
 
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BigDaddy4

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Is it truly a misapplication of the scripture to care for those in need and the stranger?

Deuteronomy 15:11
Deuteronomy 24:14-15
Psalms 41:1
Psalms 82:3-4
Proverbs 14:21
Leviticus 19:10
Leviticus 19:33
Leviticus 23:22
Exodus 23:11
Galatians 2:10
Luke 3:10-11
When one wants to apply it to the US government, yes. God set up the governments, so He's in charge of them, not us.
 
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BigDaddy4

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I'm waiting for one of them to claim that the Old Testament scriptures are no longer in effect. But of course, that's until they want to use the Leviticus verse to condemn homosexuals or the Deuteronomy verse that states women shouldn't dress in men's clothing to condemn transgenders.
Why would OT scripture apply to the US government? Are we a theocracy? Perhaps you should read more on forgiveness, since many of your posts show your bitterness and anger toward the US government and their treatment of Native Americans.
 
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JosephZ

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We have tens of thousands of able bodied Americans sitting in college classrooms on the taxpayers dime. End the student loan programs and there will be plenty of workers to fill those jobs.
Then who will fill the skilled and professional jobs when there are fewer college graduates to fill them? A lot of companies require a degree whether it is relationship to the job being filled or not.

We already have tens of thousands of immigrants taking skilled jobs in America every year as it is because there are shortages in certain sectors. Nursing would be a good example. In some states 20% of the nursing positions are currently being done by immigrants and it's estimated that an additional 1 million nurses will be needed by 2022. American hospitals are actively recruiting here in the Philippines right now for nurses to work in the US because they can't find enough qualified people in the US.
 
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