Is Mary the Mother of the Church or of all Christians?

Bladerunner

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Jesus is both man and God. Sorry you don't understand that because of your dislike of Mary.

Mary (Mother of Jesus, he man), who turned out to be the Son of GOD, no doubt is special. But that does not mean I pray to her instead of Jesus. That she is a MOTHER, for crying out loud, should be special to all of us. As she had faith in her son, Jesus Christ, she and the other OT Saints ( in resurrected bodies) are in Heaven awaiting the rest of us (Body of Christ) to get there.

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bekkilyn

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Why Protestants make it sound like Mary was nothing but an instrument from God? That's why some people think Christianity is sexist

Of course Mary was nothing but an instrument of God, just like ALL humans, male and female alike. None of us can take credit or are worthy of any credit for anything we do for God because it is *God* working through us.

The institution of Christianity can be sexist because fallible *humans* have made it so by various un-Christ-like traditions in their institutional churches. Has nothing whatsoever to do with Mary.
 
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bekkilyn

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That is what mother of God means no one is claiming otherwise, she carried God in her womb thus she became his earthly mother, the mother of God on earth. Actually according to the Bible Mary would be the queen, if Mary is not the queen of heaven then Jesus is not he king of heaven, as all biblical kings had their mothers as their queens.

If Mary is Jesus' *earthly* vs. heavenly mother, then she cannot be his queen in *heaven*. Mary is not a goddess, but a sinful human like all other humans besides Jesus. Also, God is not bound by the system of kingship that the Israelites insisted they must have so that they could be like all of the surrounding idolatrous nations. Heavenly kingship is God alone with no other kings or queens in existence.
 
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bekkilyn

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You do know that statues of Mary are used in the same way the Ark of the Covenant is, Mary herself is the new Ark of the Covenent of believers. We don’t do human sacrifice or sacred sexual intercourse at the foot of Mary’s statue like followers of Ishar/Asherah/Isis did. We don’t pray to statues of Mary either.

Actually, Mary is only one of many spiritual Arks of the Covenant. Under the New Covenant, the bodies of ALL believers in Jesus Christ are temples of the Holy Spirit. All of us and not just Mary. God is showing us that he is not limited to any physical object as is believed of the false pagan gods, but that he exists everywhere. Again, no Mary necessary as her chosen mission on earth is complete.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
 
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Fidelibus

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See Did Jesus have brothers and sisters (siblings)?

Question: "Did Jesus have brothers and sisters (siblings)?"

Answer:
Jesus’ brothers are mentioned in several Bible verses. Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, and Mark 3:31 say that Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see Him. The Bible tells us that Jesus had four brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). The Bible also tells us that Jesus had sisters, but they are not named or numbered (Matthew 13:56). In John 7:1-10, His brothers go on to the festival while Jesus stays behind. In Acts 1:14, His brothers and mother are described as praying with the disciples. Galatians 1:19 mentions that James was Jesus’ brother. The most natural conclusion of these passages is to interpret that Jesus had actual blood half-siblings.

Some Roman Catholics claim that these “brothers” were actually Jesus’ cousins. However, in each instance, the specific Greek word for “brother” is used. While the word can refer to other relatives, its normal and literal meaning is a physical brother. There was a Greek word for “cousin,” and it was not used. Further, if they were Jesus’ cousins, why would they so often be described as being with Mary, Jesus’ mother? There is nothing in the context of His mother and brothers coming to see Him that even hints that they were anyone other than His literal, blood-related, half-brothers.

A second Roman Catholic argument is that Jesus’ brothers and sisters were the children of Joseph from a previous marriage. An entire theory of Joseph's being significantly older than Mary, having been previously married, having multiple children, and then being widowed before marrying Mary is invented without any biblical basis. The problem with this is that the Bible does not even hint that Joseph was married or had children before he married Mary. If Joseph had at least six children before he married Mary, why are they not mentioned in Joseph and Mary’s trip to Bethlehem (Luke 2:4-7) or their trip to Egypt (Matthew 2:13-15) or their trip back to Nazareth (Matthew 2:20-23)?

There is no biblical reason to believe that these siblings are anything other than the actual children of Joseph and Mary. Those who oppose the idea that Jesus had half-brothers and half-sisters do so, not from a reading of Scripture, but from a preconceived concept of the perpetual virginity of Mary, which is itself clearly unbiblical: “But he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) until she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus” (Matthew 1:25). Jesus had half-siblings, half-brothers and half-sisters, who were the children of Joseph and Mary. That is the clear and unambiguous teaching of God’s Word.

Sorry ToBeLoved, But the site you copied and pasted this from (gotquestions.com) is a bias anti-Catholic web-site, so giving it any credence regarding Catholicism is a "no-go." It would be like going to the web-site of the Ku Klux Klan and asking their views on Blacks, Jews, or Asians.

Besides, and with all due respect, it didn't answer my question. Back on post #136 you said....

The Bible talks about James, the brother of Jesus.

Seems pretty definitive to me.


So being you seemed to have reached this conclusion decisively is why I asked you to be more specific on which James you believe to be Jesus' blood brother when I asked on post # 138.....


So which James are you speaking of, the James in Matt. 27:55-56, or the James in Mark 6:3, or the James in Gal 1:19?


Have a Blessed day
 
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anna ~ grace

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You often hear from those claiming membership to the One True Church that the reformation is the source of denominationalism. Wasn't Nestorius (the Archibishop of Constaninople,) the first baptist of sorts way back in 431, 600 years before the East -West schism? Opposition to Mary worship predated the reformation by centuries.

The Assyrian Church of the East still venerates Mary. They just don't call her Theotokos, but rather, Christotokos, due to their Christolgy. They still venerate her, though.

http://bethkokheh.assyrianchurch.or...ry-in-the-Writings-of-East-Syriac-Fathers.pdf

Again, veneration is not the same thing as giving her the honor due to God. It is just a loving, humble, honorable respect given her as the Mother of the Church, Help of Christians, and our Mother and Advocate.
 
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Barney2.0

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See Did Jesus have brothers and sisters (siblings)?

Question: "Did Jesus have brothers and sisters (siblings)?"

Answer:
Jesus’ brothers are mentioned in several Bible verses. Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, and Mark 3:31 say that Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see Him. The Bible tells us that Jesus had four brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). The Bible also tells us that Jesus had sisters, but they are not named or numbered (Matthew 13:56). In John 7:1-10, His brothers go on to the festival while Jesus stays behind. In Acts 1:14, His brothers and mother are described as praying with the disciples. Galatians 1:19 mentions that James was Jesus’ brother. The most natural conclusion of these passages is to interpret that Jesus had actual blood half-siblings.

Some Roman Catholics claim that these “brothers” were actually Jesus’ cousins. However, in each instance, the specific Greek word for “brother” is used. While the word can refer to other relatives, its normal and literal meaning is a physical brother. There was a Greek word for “cousin,” and it was not used. Further, if they were Jesus’ cousins, why would they so often be described as being with Mary, Jesus’ mother? There is nothing in the context of His mother and brothers coming to see Him that even hints that they were anyone other than His literal, blood-related, half-brothers.

A second Roman Catholic argument is that Jesus’ brothers and sisters were the children of Joseph from a previous marriage. An entire theory of Joseph's being significantly older than Mary, having been previously married, having multiple children, and then being widowed before marrying Mary is invented without any biblical basis. The problem with this is that the Bible does not even hint that Joseph was married or had children before he married Mary. If Joseph had at least six children before he married Mary, why are they not mentioned in Joseph and Mary’s trip to Bethlehem (Luke 2:4-7) or their trip to Egypt (Matthew 2:13-15) or their trip back to Nazareth (Matthew 2:20-23)?

There is no biblical reason to believe that these siblings are anything other than the actual children of Joseph and Mary. Those who oppose the idea that Jesus had half-brothers and half-sisters do so, not from a reading of Scripture, but from a preconceived concept of the perpetual virginity of Mary, which is itself clearly unbiblical: “But he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) until she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus” (Matthew 1:25). Jesus had half-siblings, half-brothers and half-sisters, who were the children of Joseph and Mary. That is the clear and unambiguous teaching of God’s Word.
Multiple articles refuting those very verses:

Perpetual Virginity of Mary | Catholic Answers
 
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Barney2.0

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If Mary is Jesus' *earthly* vs. heavenly mother, then she cannot be his queen in *heaven*. Mary is not a goddess, but a sinful human like all other humans besides Jesus. Also, God is not bound by the system of kingship that the Israelites insisted they must have so that they could be like all of the surrounding idolatrous nations. Heavenly kingship is God alone with no other kings or queens in existence.
In John 18:36 Jesus claims to be a heavenly king, then where is heaven’s queen mother? Jesus was titled king of Israel by Nathanael in John 1:49 which is a messianic title, this also means he claimed Davidic kingship through and through especially by being a descendent of David he had to fit all the criteria to Davidic Kingship which also includes having your mother as a queen. No one is claiming Mary is a goddess, however Mary committed no sin in her life, as I like to say only the best can bear the best Jesus is bound by the kingship of Israel, thus he must have fulfilled all its criteria.
 
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Barney2.0

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Actually, Mary is only one of many spiritual Arks of the Covenant. Under the New Covenant, the bodies of ALL believers in Jesus Christ are temples of the Holy Spirit. All of us and not just Mary. God is showing us that he is not limited to any physical object as is believed of the false pagan gods, but that he exists everywhere. Again, no Mary necessary as her chosen mission on earth is complete.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
You do know the difference between saying that “your body is a temple” and saying that “your body is The Temple.” God isn’t limited to physical objects, but there are places where God’s presence physically dwells. Of course this doesn’t mean God is limited because he can choose multiple objects or places to dwell or withdraw from any time he desires. A very good example would be The Temple or more specifically The Holy of Holies. There is only one Ark of the New Covenant:

St. Proclus (died 446 or 447)

“Let the woman haste hither, for the woman shows not the tree of death, but brings forth the tree of life: the virgins...the mothers also, for the Virgin Mother has amended the tree of disobedience by the tree of life. The female sex is no longer in execration, for it has obtained whereby it shall surpass even the angels in glory. Eve has been healed...and Mary is venerated (adored), because she has become mother and handmaid, cloud and chamber, and ark of the Lord....For this cause let us say to her: Blessed art thou amongst women, who alone hast healed the grief of Eve; who alone hast borne the world’s price” (Orat.iv.and v. In Natal. Dom. P.G. Tom. 65, p.710) (Blessed Virgin, p. 58).



St. Ephrem (c. 306-373)

“With the rib that was drawn out of Adam, the wicked one drew out the heart of Adam. There arose from the rib [i.e., Mary], a hidden power which cut off Satan as Dagon. For in that ark [Mary again], a book was hidden that cried and proclaimed the Conqueror. There was then a mystery revealed, in that Dagon was brought low in his own place of refuge. The accomplishment came after the type, in that the wicked one was brought low wherein he trusted....Fulfilled was the mystery. Blessed is He who by the true Lamb redeemed us, and destroyed our destroyer as He did Dagon” (S. Ephrem, Rhythm iii, On the Nativity, Morris, p.20) ((Blessed Virgin, p. 66).





Chrysippus

An ark truly royal, an ark most precious is the ever-Virgin Mother of God, an ark which received the treasure of entire sanctification. Not that ark wherein were all kinds of animals, as in the ark of Noe, which escaped the shipwreck of the whole drowning world. Not that ark in which were the tables of stone, as in the ark that journeyed in company with Israel throughout the desert; but an ark whose architect and inhabitant, pilot and merchant, companion of the way, and leader, was the Creator of all creatures, all which He bears in Himself, but by all is not contained” (Chrysippus, Orat. de laudib. Deip. (Blessed Virgin, p. 74).



St. Hippolytus (c. 170-c. 236)

“At that time, the Savior coming from the Virgin, the Ark, brought forth His own Body into the world from that Ark, which was gilded with pure gold within by the Word, and without by the Holy Ghost; so that the truth was shown forth, and the Ark was manifested....And the Savior came into the world bearing the incorruptible Ark, that is to say His own body” (S. Hippolytus, In Dan.vi., Patr. Gr., Tom. 10, p. 648) (Blessed Virgin, p. 77).



St. Ambrose (c. 339-397)

“The prophet David danced before the Ark. Now what else should we say the Ark was but holy Mary? The Ark bore within it the tables of the Testament, but Mary bore the Heir of the same Testament itself. The former contained in it the Law, the latter the Gospel. The one had the voice of God, the other His Word. The Ark, indeed, was radiant within and without with the glitter of gold, but holy Mary shone within and without with the splendor of virginity. The one was adorned with earthly gold, the other with heavenly” (Serm. xlii. 6, Int. Opp., S. Ambrosii) (Blessed Virgin, p. 77).



St. Cyril (315-387?)

“The Ark would be the type and image of Christ : for if we look back to the way of the Incarnation of the Only-begotten, we shall see that it is in the temple of the Virgin, as in an ark that the Word of God took up His abode. For in Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, as the Scripture saith. But the testimonies in the ark were the word of God, and the wood of it was imperishable, and with pure and choicest gold was it beautified within and without” (St. Cyril, De ador. In Spir. Et Verit, p. 293, St. Maximus of Turin and other Fathers apply the Ark of the Covenant to the Blessed Virgin Mary) (Blessed Virgin, p. 76).



Breviarium in Psalterium

“Christ in Mary as though the Bridegroom in the bride chamber, and the body of Mary as though the tabernacle” (Breviarium in Psalterium) (Blessed Virgin, p. 78).



St. Athanasius (c. 296-373)

“Be mindful of us, most holy virgin, who after childbirth didst remain virgin; and grant to us for these small words great gifts from the riches of they graces, O thou full of grace. Accept them as though they were true and adequate praises in they honor; and if there is in them any virtue and any praise, we offer them as a hymn from ourselves and from all creatures to thee, full of grace, Lady, Queen, Mistress, Mother of God, and Ark of sanctification” (Orat. In Deip. Annuntiat, nn. 13, 14. Int. Opp. S. Athanasii) (Blessed Virgin, p. 80).



St. Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296-373; the main defender of the Trinity and the deity of Christ against the 2nd century Arian heretics.)

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O (Ark of the) Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which Divinity resides.” Homily of the Papyrus of Turin.



St. Dionysius (died 264)

“As Christ our priest was not chosen by hand of man, so neither was His tabernacle framed by men, but was established by the Holy Ghost; and by the power of God is that tabernacle protected, to be had in everlasting remembrance, Mary, God’s Virgin Mother” (S. Dionysius of Alexandria, Respons. ad Quoest. v. Pauli Samos) (Blessed Virgin, p. 81).[1]



St. Gregory Thaumaturgus

“The tenor of his message was as follows. I am moved by My compassion to descend to earth in order to recover the lost Adam. Sin made him to decay who was made to My image, and hath corrupted the work of My hands, and obscured the beauty which I formed....Go therefore to the Virgin Mary. Pass thou on to the animate city whereof the prophet spake these words: Glorious things are said of thee, O city of God. Go, then, to My rational paradise, to the Gate of the East, to the place of sojourn that is worthy of My Word, that hath appeared as a heaven upon earth ; go to the light cloud, and announce to it the shower of My coming ; go to the sanctuary prepared for Me, to the hall of the Incarnation, to the pure chamber of My generation according to the flesh. Speak in the ears of My rational ark, so as to prepare for Me the accesses of hearing. But disturb not nor vex the soul of Mary. Manifest thyself in such wise as becomes that sanctuary, and salute her first with the voice of gladness” (Homilies, il, ii., iii. On the Annunciation, Int. Opp. S. Greg. Thaum., 5th century) (Blessed Virgin, p. 123).



Read more: https://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/mary/church-fathers-on-mary-as-ark-of-the-new-covenant/
 
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Not David

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Long before Nestorius The Church of the East understood the intentions of the push by the west to make Mary mother of God by using human faulty logic that applies man being deity owing to a fleshly mother. The Church of the East knew according to the Nicene Creed that although God can become man, however, the ONE Substance who is God does not change and does not allow the reverse such that man can become God in order to make Mary the God bearer.

God can become man.
Man cannot become God.

One Substance does not change before and after incarnation and resurrection, the faulty logic that Mary birthing the flesh does not grant her any authorship to the one substance who is God.

God became man is not applicable in reverse.

God took flesh and he allowed it to be crucified but in the resurrection God took the imperishable form as the Lord from Heaven. A body that is not earrhy and has no DNA association with Mary.

Mary did not birth or bear God in his resurrection and she certainly could not be called mother of Jesus whether biologically or spiritual after his resurrection.
Except the Bible called her mother of Jesus and "mother of my Lord".
 
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Mary (Mother of Jesus, he man), who turned out to be the Son of GOD, no doubt is special. But that does not mean I pray to her instead of Jesus. That she is a MOTHER, for crying out loud, should be special to all of us. As she had faith in her son, Jesus Christ, she and the other OT Saints ( in resurrected bodies) are in Heaven awaiting the rest of us (Body of Christ) to get there.

Blade
I wonder who said you should pray to her instead of Jesus? :scratch:
 
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Not David

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Of course Mary was nothing but an instrument of God, just like ALL humans, male and female alike. None of us can take credit or are worthy of any credit for anything we do for God because it is *God* working through us.

The institution of Christianity can be sexist because fallible *humans* have made it so by various un-Christ-like traditions in their institutional churches. Has nothing whatsoever to do with Mary.
Except when God calls only men to be part of the clergy, then nobody is an instrument anymore.
 
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Except the Bible called her mother of Jesus and "mother of my Lord".

That maybe said by the 3rd party, but what did the party that counts as the witness call her?

Jesus called her woman. Jesus not once called her mother and for good reason, otherwise the 3rd party would have cared to mention it in bold and the Catholics would have pounced on it as law in print.

The question of mother is never the theme of Christianity and I can now see what your topic intention is. The Apostles are the Jesus camp who died for Jesus and the Father. The Mary camp that came centuries after 431 AD die in faith for Mary. This is the big difference that I believe you failed to disclose in your thread. Do you agree?

The Mary camp is not the Jesus camp and vice versa. The sooner Christians realise this the better it is for everyone.

The Catholic Church is not the mother of all Christians and never historically has been from the mere fact that there was always East and West and history traces the two different Churches.
 
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bekkilyn

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In John 18:36 Jesus claims to be a heavenly king, then where is heaven’s queen mother? Jesus was titled king of Israel by Nathanael in John 1:49 which is a messianic title, this also means he claimed Davidic kingship through and through especially by being a descendent of David he had to fit all the criteria to Davidic Kingship which also includes having your mother as a queen. No one is claiming Mary is a goddess, however Mary committed no sin in her life, as I like to say only the best can bear the best Jesus is bound by the kingship of Israel, thus he must have fulfilled all its criteria.

Heaven doesn't have a queen mother because heaven isn't obligated to have a Davidic kingship. That was entirely a human system that was not of God's original design. God did not desire or design for Israel to have a king. God warned them against setting up a king, but they insisted and did it anyway. Why would God have such a system set up in heaven when he was vehemently against the idea?

Jesus *human* lineage was to be through the line of David and therefore he needed to fulfill the requirements for Messiah, but this has nothing whatsoever to do with how things are set up in heaven. There is no queen of heaven. It is God and God alone, as he originally designed for Israel and then they rebelled and set up a human king instead of God's rule.

Mary was born in sin, lived in sin, and committed sin just as any human has done other than Jesus. Jesus is the *only* sinless human being, and Mary needed him as her Lord and Savior just as any other human being. To claim that Mary was sinless is to elevate her to position of goddess in need of no Savior.

Nothing in heaven is bound by anything created by humans on earth, or even reluctantly allowed to humans by God.
 
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That maybe said by the 3rd party, but what did the party that counts as the witness call her?

Jesus called her woman. Jesus not once called her mother and for good reason, otherwise the 3rd party would have cared to mention it in bold and the Catholics would have pounced on it as law in print.

The question of mother is never the theme of Christianity and I can now see what your topic intention is. The Apostles are the Jesus camp who died for Jesus and the Father. The Mary camp that came centuries after 431 AD die in faith for Mary. This is the big difference that I believe you failed to disclose in your thread. Do you agree?

The Mary camp is not the Jesus camp and vice versa. The sooner Christians realise this the better it is for everyone.

The Catholic Church is not the mother of all Christians and never historically has been from the mere fact that there was always East and West and history traces the two different Churches.
Women was a respectful term in those times. Jesus never said "I'm God" are you going to argue against the divinity of Christ too?
 
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bekkilyn

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Except when God calls only men to be part of the clergy, then nobody is an instrument anymore.

Nowhere in scripture does it state that God calls only men to be part of the clergy. Not to mention that all of us are God's instruments whether we be clergy or not. Clergy are basically the "professionals" of human-created religious institutions, but God's call is by no means limited to clergy. We are all called by God for something and hence are his instruments for his work. Sometimes that call may include being a clergy in a religious denomination and other humans should not interfere with that calling, but Mary has nothing specifically to do with any of this other than that her calling was to be the vessel through which Christ as human was born. We can learn a lot from Mary in the way that she responded to her call and do likewise to whatever things God calls us to do.
 
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Women was a respectful term in those times. Jesus never said "I'm God" are you going to argue against the divinity of Christ too?

A woman in Semitic culture meant that she is not a girl, meaning she is a female who had a husband. A female who has never been married, that is had never had sex with a man is called a girl. In that culture, they would say the woman of such and such and it would mean bride of such and such.

The way Jesus answered is addressing Mary as a 3rd person as if he is not even related to her, think about it for a moment and reflect. A woman is not a respectful term like how the west uses Madam.

Jesus never once called Mary mother and for good reason.

Jesus uses aversion response to address those who would call Mary his mother. Let us just recap on the verses in question -

Jesus’ Mother and Brothers

46While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

Notice the 3rd person who is writing about the event makes it known that Mary is his biological mother and another 3rd person is highlighted in identifying Mary as the mother of Jesus, but what perspires in Jesus response is not short of an aversion response. You say he used a woman as a form of being respectful? Huh, quite the opposite in that he was averting that label.

48He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Jesus emphasizes more respect and honour to his disciples as being his spiritual mother and brothers than to just make it plain and simple and just say OK, fair enough I will give Mary my mother the time of day to speak to her. For Jesus did not even want to entertain the thought that Mary is his mother, let alone give her the time and day to speak to her as she was wanting to speak with him, in that he placed more importance and emphasis on his disciples than his so called mother Mary and you call Jesus calling Mary woman a respectful lingo? Huh!

Aversion my friend aversion is what played out and you know it, but will you accept it is the Jesus or Mary camp question?
 
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Not once did Jesus call Mary mother is the claim that scripture emphatically and explicitly give credence to and this is purposeful in the way Jesus who is The Creator God wanted it to go down and no Catholic will change the fact that Jesus stood opposed to 3rd party others calling Mary his mother and for a good reason.

3When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”

4Woman, why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”

5His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

In Semitic culture, you would not have a son call his mother a woman. In fact, if a son dared to call his mother a woman in front of his father, his father would slap him silly and then beat him to a pulp for saying something derogatory in front of others who are not direct family members. the term Jesus uses is an aversion response that disassociates himself from Mary and has him saying "what has what you want me to do to do with me", in that Jesus was showing that Mary's agenda was not his agenda and in this role Jesus is critical of her asking him something that does not comply with him at all.
 
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