How do pro-abortion Christians reconcile their views with pro-life scripture?

blackhead · Nov 30, 2018

TheLostCoin said:
You mean the church that had a female preacher encourage masturbation and inappropriate contentography?

It's as much of a church as "seed-faith" organizations are, insofar as both marginally go against what Christ taught.

Being LCMS myself I am against the ELCA.

SkyWriting · Nov 30, 2018

TheLostCoin said:
If the labels of sin are obselete, explain this to me - verses where people will be condemned by certain sins, which have labels:1 Corinthians 6:9-10Revelation 21:8
And as I've said, even though the Old Covenant is obsolete, why do parents still teach their kids the 10 Commandments?So if homeless people who are suffering will most likely suffer until they die, why should they have a right to choose whether they want to live or not, and not babies? That's not to mention the mentally ill homeless people, who don't have the faculties to make such a decision. Moreover, babies have an entire life to have the potential of escaping their economic situation - homeless people often do not, due to drug addiction, mental illness, criminal records, etc.

I can explain:
(This covers the murders of the unborn)

Hebrews 8:13
By speaking of a new covenant,
He has made the first one obsolete;
and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Romans 3:20
Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin.

Romans 4:15
because the Law brings wrath. And where there is no law, there is no transgression.

Acts 13:39
Through Him everyone who believes is justified
from everything
you could not be justified from by the Law of Moses.

Romans 5:20
The Law was given so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

What Does the Bible Say About Judging Other Peoples Sin?

How you blend the passages is up to you.
Glad to help!

Eloy Craft · Nov 30, 2018

SkyWriting said:
And conception leads to death over half the time, before birth. Then come the beatings.

Yes. Nobody gets out alive. Might as well get it over with.

Adventist Heretic · Nov 30, 2018

TheLostCoin said:
Nope.

Science can't define what we perceive "life" to be, in terms of "life" as it pertains to this conversation; it can only tell you the properties of what it is / how it functions, and it is your own ethical worldview which determines when it is "a life."

According to Science, plants are also living organism which have needs. When we harvest food, are we committing genocide against plants?
No, because our own international ethical worldview doesn't view plants as of anywhere near the same importance as human beings - something you'll find throughout every culture in history (including animist - vegetarian religions like Jainism).

As it pertains to humans, there's so many philosophical discussions of what makes one an "individual" or a "human being," that to suggest that this is something which can be objectively, without any bias, proven through visual study is something that you cannot do.

If you remove the legs of a human being, is it a human being? If you remove the arms, is it a human being? If you remove the heart and replace it with a machine, is it a human being? If you remove the brain but replace it with a machine, keeping the same consciousness, is it a human being? If you transfer the consciousness to a computer, is it a human being? If you replace the mind with an artificial intelligence but keep the human being the same in all organic functions, is it a human being?
If someone is so mentally insane that they act like a goat, are they a human being?

Any kind of answer to these questions is not an appeal to "objective science," but your own definition of what makes a human being a human.

But what makes something a life is irrelevant to my argument.

If you don't believe that a "zygote" is a life, your "subjective" view of declaring it "when it's a life" is irrelevant, because you are committing a positive action to prevent a full human being from existing, which, had you not committed, would exist.

According to the Merriam Webster dictionary, "to kill" is "to deprive of life", which is what abortion is.

Even if you had a vasectomy, a human being would not be prevented from existing, because over time, without any action, the sperm would remain a sperm, whereas a zygote would turn into a fully formed human being without any action.

Those were a lot of words, to say I disagree. you essentially started with a false premise and circular reasoned to your point. Try again.

Adventist Heretic · Nov 30, 2018

blackhead said:
This is pretty good evidence that abortion is murder and is abominable.

Jeremiah 1:5 This is actually very weak argument for abortion being murder, BECAUSE it is talking about the calling of Jeremiah BEFORE he was formed in the womb. It is a classic example of Christians reading into the text something that is not there. the word WOMB is mentioned and they think abortion New International Version
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." It is a case for formation of the body beginning at conception , not conscience beginning at conception. Jer. 1:5 speaks either to the pre-existent nature of the soul or the Foreknowledge of God.

blackhead · Nov 30, 2018

icedragon101 said:
Jeremiah 1:5 This is actually very weak argument for abortion being murder, BECAUSE it is talking about the calling of Jeremiah BEFORE he was formed in the womb. It is a classic example of Christians reading into the text something that is not there. the word WOMB is mentioned and they think abortion New International Version
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." It is a case for formation of the body beginning at conception , not conscience beginning at conception. Jer. 1:5 speaks either to the pre-existent nature of the soul or the Foreknowledge of God.

It’s clear evidence that God knows us all before we are born.

Adventist Heretic · Nov 30, 2018

Junker P Hoodwink said:
Would you prefer Luke 1:41? Here it is: "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit."

at 29 to 30 weeks the baby's body is formed and prepared and is alive, it would be murder at that point. life in the womb is not the same at the beginning of pregnancy as at the end.

Adventist Heretic · Nov 30, 2018

blackhead said:
It’s clear evidence that God knows us all before we are born.

yes, but it is not clear evidence that life begins at conception. that is the issue on the table.

Adventist Heretic · Nov 30, 2018

We have the same problem at the end of life, when is a person considered dead?

blackhead · Nov 30, 2018

icedragon101 said:
yes, but it is not clear evidence that life begins at conception. that is the issue on the table.

How do you see that?

Gabriel12 · Dec 1, 2018

Junker P Hoodwink said:
Proverbs 139:13, “For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.”

Jeremiah 1:5, “Before you were in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as the prophet of nations.”

Job 31:15, “Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers?”

Psalm 22:10, “From birth I was cast on you; from my mother’s womb you have been my God.”

Gabriel12 · Dec 1, 2018

Is no one bothered by the books quoted? Are you of Jewish faith or a believer of Christ. This is a Christian forum correct? Why do you quote a book that has been “finished” the Old Testament is just that. Old and irrelevant concerning Christ. But i belive these “gray” areas are not for us to decided. What is the difference if A fetus is aborted or a baby of 3 years old dies of cancer. Did they both have the same chance at Christ? That is the real question. And I think they both didn’t have a chance at Christ like everyone who is reading now has a choice. So pro life or pro choice means nothing when your pro Christ.

Junker P Hoodwink · Dec 1, 2018

Gabriel12 said:
Is no one bothered by the books quoted? Are you of Jewish faith or a believer of Christ. This is a Christian forum correct? Why do you quote a book that has been “finished” the Old Testament is just that. Old and irrelevant concerning Christ. But i belive these “gray” areas are not for us to decided. What is the difference if A fetus is aborted or a baby of 3 years old dies of cancer. Did they both have the same chance at Christ? That is the real question. And I think they both didn’t have a chance at Christ like everyone who is reading now has a choice. So pro life or pro choice means nothing when your pro Christ.

Are you suggesting that "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shalt not steal" aren't relevant for Christians anymore because that's Old Testament stuff?

Mark51 · Dec 1, 2018

Read Exodus 21:22, 23; Psalms 139:16 and Job 3:3.

A question for consideration: Considering Mary's conception, at what term of her pregnancy should Christians deem that Jesus was as a viable human?

Gabriel12 · Dec 1, 2018

Junker P Hoodwink said:
Are you suggesting that "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shalt not steal" aren't relevant for Christians anymore because that's Old Testament stuff?

Gabriel12 · Dec 1, 2018

Concidering that Jesus took away the law yes I would say they are not relevant. But a way easier way to say those things is “love one another as I have loved you” does that not cover the same thing? If you love your brother would you steal from him? Would you kill him if you loved him?

Junker P Hoodwink · Dec 3, 2018

Gabriel12 said:
Concidering that Jesus took away the law yes I would say they are not relevant. But a way easier way to say those things is “love one another as I have loved you” does that not cover the same thing? If you love your brother would you steal from him? Would you kill him if you loved him?

At what point was Jesus considered a viable human during Mary's pregnancy with him? What do you think? Also, if you believe loving others means you shouldn't kill them, then why support abortion, which is killing an unborn baby? What about love of the unborn?

Philip_B · Dec 3, 2018

I have a great deal of sympathy with the pro-life argument here, save for the pragmatic realities that surround anything to do with actual human beings. I can only speak from the Australian experience. Prior to the advent of legalised abortion in Australia there was a backyard industry, and there were many accounts of women who in desperate circumstances turned to back yard clinics and other DIY solutions which led to all manner of serious damage being unnecessarily done to women, and a number of recorded deaths and other injuries from these practices.

I do not think that abortion is ideal, and I do not think it should be understood as birth control, however a blanket 'no' in all cases is also hard. Some time back I was involved with a family where the wife pregnant with a second child believed that something was wrong. Ultimately it transpired that she had a cancer, and a decision had to be taken. The pro-life group were very loud in her ear, and so she carried the baby to term, and died three days later. I know none of the answers, however I know that there are real cases where this is not simply choosing life, but choosing which life.

Abortion also carried with it a psychological cost for the woman, and probably for the man as well, and so in Australia there is a counselling practice as part of the procedure. We can be very quick to hand out guilt in good measure, and whilst we might feel better about it, that is not our job, and we don;t really help anyone in that.

The question that I believe we as Christians should be asking is 'what is the loving thing to do?' and that has to be asked on a case by case basis.

There is, as has been discussed a relevant discussion about when life begins. Part of me says that is a separate discussion - not that it is not relevant - but rather that it gets buried in the rest of the argument here. No one here has actually said what they mean by conception. There is also an issue about when life becomes human. Following some arguments here, given the amount of wasted zygotes and gametes in the natural process, you need the be careful about going too early here less you paint God as a mass murderer. There was one cleric in Australia was suggested that taking the pill or using a condom was murder - which seemed to fail to note that he was making abstinence thereby was the sin of murder by omission. We can do better than this.

We are called to lift up our hearts. We lift them to the Lord.

Adventist Heretic · Dec 4, 2018

Gabriel12 said:
Is no one bothered by the books quoted? Are you of Jewish faith or a believer of Christ. This is a Christian forum correct? Why do you quote a book that has been “finished” the Old Testament is just that. Old and irrelevant concerning Christ. But i belive these “gray” areas are not for us to decided. What is the difference if A fetus is aborted or a baby of 3 years old dies of cancer. Did they both have the same chance at Christ? That is the real question. And I think they both didn’t have a chance at Christ like everyone who is reading now has a choice. So pro life or pro choice means nothing when your pro Christ.

you clearly don't know what you are talking about

Adventist Heretic · Dec 4, 2018

blackhead said:
How do you see that?

not sure what you want cleared up, but will try to give what I think you want an explination on. Some believe that we existed, before we come into the body, and that we exist after we leave the body. if we do exist before or after that is not the question. The question is when do we become a person in this life and enter the body. That is the point we are concerned about. People who say life begins at conception lack the biblical evidence and the scientific evidence to say that is the case, because no where in scripture does it say so. The text quoted never say that.

How do pro-abortion Christians reconcile their views with pro-life scripture?

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