End times are terrifying

Dave G. · Nov 30, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
Yes I'm saying part of Matt 24 is about the pretrib rapture. These verses are about the pretrib rapture.

Matt 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I realize that you don't think the verses about Noah in Matt 24 are about a pretrib rapture.....because you believe that the flood destroyed the ones that are taken....as you can see in Luke 17.
Luke 17
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

However, there are things that should be considered. One these thing is that they were eating and drinking until the day that Noah entered the ark. We know that Noah entered the ark 7 days before the flood. In other words destruction does not come until the flood comes. The flood does not come when Noah enters the ark.

Something else we should consider. Jesus says we can escape ALL THE THINGS THAT WILL COME TO PASS. That means that Noah enters the ark...BEFORE......this verse.

Matt 24
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

The church can escape all the things that will come to pass 7 days before the flood. The church will also not know when he is coming.

However, there are others that are told to lookup when they see these things begin to come to pass. They will know that there redemption is near. They will be raptured before the wrath of God. It will be like the days of Lot. The very day Lot left Sodom, destruction came. And notice that Lot went out from Sodom when destruction came.

This sounds good but you need to read Luke 17:20 where it is established the event spoken of within Luke 17. Or else you believe the pre trib rapture and the day of the Lord are the same event and I'm sure you don't believe that.

JacksBratt · Nov 30, 2018

keras said:
Interesting.
A case can be made for pre-trib rapture, even though the Bible does not state it.
But a case cannot be made for the reason why God would do such a thing.

In fact, because He has not previously 'raptured' anyone out of their terrible persecution before; examples are the millions of martyrs since Stephen, and even the 2 Witnesses to come are killed before being taken to heaven, then there is no justification for todays Church to be taken away from trials and testing. 1 Peter 4:12 says we WILL face testing.
So any so called; proof of a 'rapture to heaven', falls flat when no valid reason can be found for it.
Revelation 13:10 and Revelation 14:12 both plainly say we must endure until the end. We are promised protection during the wrath of the Lord; He requires our faith in His power for this. Acts 2:21, 2 Peter 2:9

Jesus compares the end times with:
The days of Noah and
The time of Sodom and Gomorrah.

The bible does not compare the end times with that of Moses and the exodus.

So... by deduction... on a very primitive comparison... God removed Noah from the flood so that he and his family avoided being present during the destruction.
Also, with Lot, God sent angels to remove him and his family from the destruction.

In either case... God did not allow the subjects to be at the place of the destruction and judgement, while supernaturally keeping them from harm.

He removed them... once by an ark...or boat... and secondly by taking Lot out of the area..

This is a parallel that we can hope for with the rapture of the church that would remove us from the place where the destruction and judgement will take place... while we are safe.

Petros2015 · Nov 30, 2018

blackhead said:
God burned Sodom for homosexuality.

Seems to me the root of what He burned them for was selfishness and pride.

Ezekiel 16:49

49 Now this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed, and complacent; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me, and when I saw this, I removed them.

vinsight4u · Nov 30, 2018

vinsight4u · Nov 30, 2018

Choose Wisely · Nov 30, 2018

Dave G. said:
This sounds good but you need to read Luke 17:20 where it is established the event spoken of within Luke 17. Or else you believe the pre trib rapture and the day of the Lord are the same event and I'm sure you don't believe that.

No, the event that is spoken of in Luke 17:20 was spoken to the Pharisees when Jesus answered their demand. We see the same event in John 3:3

Luke 17
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

When he is talking to the disciples he tells them that there will come a time that they shall desire to see ONE of the days of the Son of man........and not see it. He tells them........For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. He tells them that the coming of the Son of man.......CAN BE OBSERVED.

Luke 17
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Of course the disciples will not see ONE of these days because it will happen in the future. First with a secret coming for the pre trib rapture of the church when the world will only see the lightning out of one part of heaven to the other............like the days of Noah. Then he will come again for the gathering from heaven and earth when all eyes will see the coming. It will be like the days of Lot. Then the wrath of God will begin.
Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Dave G. · Nov 30, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
No, the event that is spoken of in Luke 17:20 was spoken to the Pharisees when Jesus answered their demand. We see the same event in John 3:3

Luke 17
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

When he is talking to the disciples he tells them that there will come a time that they shall desire to see ONE of the days of the Son of man........and not see it. He tells them........For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. He tells them that the coming of the Son of man.......CAN BE OBSERVED.

Luke 17
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Of course the disciples will not see ONE of these days because it will happen in the future. First with a secret coming for the pre trib rapture of the church when the world will only see the lightning out of one part of heaven to the other............like the days of Noah. Then he will come again for the gathering from heaven and earth when all eyes will see the coming. It will be like the days of Lot. Then the wrath of God will begin.
Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

The son of man is not revealed in the pre trib theory ( his people go to meet him in the air but he is not revealed as in to the world), and he is revealed in Luke. You quoted it above in verse 30. These are different events if you are to believe in pre trib. You can't have it both ways and have them be the same event. In the pre trib belief he comes in the air once and has his second coming later.

Another thing. In 1 Corinthians 15 we see a transforming in the twinkling of an eye, they get changed and no mention of going anywhere. Nothing there says anyone got raptured, just changed. It doesn't say they weren't raptured either, nor free to roam or go between earth and heaven etc.

parousia70 · Nov 30, 2018

blackhead said:
I’m using “near” as in within the next 100 years.

Fair enough.
I believe that is the way the apostles used the term as well. The plain sense meaning.

My concern is that the apostles were infallibly inspired in their declaration of the nearness of these things to them, whereas you and I are not... we are just 21st-century internet speculators playing an online guessing game.

What is it that you think you know about the relative nearness to us of these events, if anything, that the apostles didn't?

If they could have been so wrong about the "nearness" while testifying under the direct, infallible inspiration of the Holy Spirit, how on earth can you or I expect to be right when we are simply guessing and have no such infallible inspiration directing our proclamations?

parousia70 · Nov 30, 2018

JacksBratt said:
Jesus compares the end times with:
The days of Noah and
The time of Sodom and Gomorrah.

The bible does not compare the end times with that of Moses and the exodus.

So... by deduction... on a very primitive comparison... God removed Noah from the flood so that he and his family avoided being present during the destruction.
Also, with Lot, God sent angels to remove him and his family from the destruction.

In either case... God did not allow the subjects to be at the place of the destruction and judgement, while supernaturally keeping them from harm.

He removed them... once by an ark...or boat... and secondly by taking Lot out of the area..

This is a parallel that we can hope for with the rapture of the church that would remove us from the place where the destruction and judgement will take place... while we are safe.

Oddly, Both Noah and Lot were "Left Behind" while the wicked ones were "taken away" to destruction.

Jesus likens this to His coming:
Matthew 24:38-41
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

As in the Flood, It is the wicked who are "Taken" while the righteous are "Left Behind".

blackhead · Nov 30, 2018

parousia70 said:
Fair enough.
I believe that is the way the apostles used the term as well. The plain sense meaning.

My concern is that the apostles were infallibly inspired in their declaration of the nearness of these things to them, whereas you and I are not... we are just 21st-century internet speculators playing an online guessing game.

What is it that you think you know about the relative nearness to us of these events, if anything, that the apostles didn't?

If they could have been so wrong about the "nearness" while testifying under the direct, infallible inspiration of the Holy Spirit, how on earth can you or I expect to be right when we are simply guessing and have no such infallible inspiration directing our proclamations?

Like I said I think the legalization of gay marriage points to his coming soon but that is just my opinion on the matter.

parousia70 · Nov 30, 2018

blackhead said:
Like I said I think the legalization of gay marriage points to his coming soon but that is just my opinion on the matter.

Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome had far more widespread adoption and mainstream acceptance of Homosexual partnerships in their societies than modern Western Civilization today does.

Even Heterosexuals in those societies frequently engaged in Homosexual partnerships as part of the standard course of social interactions with one another... far more widespread than anything we see today.

If the Infallibly inspired apostles saw that far greater widespread acceptance of Homosexual partnerships as evidence of the soon coming in their day, and we today say they were wrong in their proclamation, how is it we can claim any sort of authority to say we are right about the lesser degree of such partnerships today?

blackhead · Nov 30, 2018

parousia70 said:
Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome had far more widespread adoption and mainstream acceptance of Homosexual partnerships in their societies than modern Western Civilization today does.

Even Heterosexuals in those societies frequently engaged in Homosexual partnerships as part of the standard course of social interactions with one another... far more widespread than anything we see today.

I Doubt it.

parousia70 · Nov 30, 2018

blackhead said:
I Doubt it.

You can always erase that doubt with facts if you so choose.
Please educate yourself.

Homosexuality in ancient Greece - Wikipedia

Homosexuality in ancient Rome - Wikipedia

History of homosexuality - Wikipedia

Choose Wisely · Nov 30, 2018

Dave G. said:
The son of man is not revealed in the pre trib theory ( his people go to meet him in the air but he is not revealed as in to the world)

That's correct. The pretrib rapture will be a secret rapture. He will not be revealed to the world. It will be like the days of Noah, where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. And yet the world quits eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage the day Noah ENTERS the ark...........7 days before the destruction.

Dave G. said:
, and he is revealed in Luke. You quoted it above in verse 30.

Exactly. He WILL be revealed in ONE OF THE DAYS OF THE SON OF MAN. It will be like the days of Lot. The very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes. This will be the pre wrath rapture of the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth.

Dave G. said:
These are different events if you are to believe in pre trib.

They are different events...........one coming pre trib, secret rapture. One coming pre wrath, all eyes will see Him.

Dave G. said:
You can't have it both ways and have them be the same event.

They are not the same event. One of the days of the son of man will be pretrib and one of the days of the son of man will be prewrath.

Dave G. said:
In the pre trib belief he comes in the air once and has his second coming later.

They don't understand there is a pretrib coming for the church and a pre wrath coming for the 12 tribes.

Dave G. said:
Another thing. In 1 Corinthians 15 we see a transforming in the twinkling of an eye, they get changed and no mention of going anywhere. Nothing there says anyone got raptured, just changed. It doesn't say they weren't raptured either, nor free to roam or go between earth and heaven etc.

This is the pre wrath rapture that occurs at the last trump. It is a gathering from heaven and earth.
Mark 13
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Joy · Nov 30, 2018

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JacksBratt · Nov 30, 2018

parousia70 said:
Oddly, Both Noah and Lot were "Left Behind" while the wicked ones were "taken away" to destruction.

Jesus likens this to His coming:
Matthew 24:38-41
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

As in the Flood, It is the wicked who are "Taken" while the righteous are "Left Behind".

I see what your doing there...

I guess, technically, the evil will be taken and we will be left behind and inhabit the earth during the millennial reign and for everlasting on the new earth with the new heaven.

However, physically, Noah was taken up in the ark, Lot was walked off the site, and destruction came to take away the evil ones.

We will be taken up and off the earth, while the evil ones are again taken away by God's wrath.

mkgal1 · Nov 30, 2018

JohnB445 said:
....but with all the confusion I know I should probably look forward to what other interpretations are in case if there isn't a pre-trib rapture.

Have you looked into those other interpretations?

I wasn't even aware that there even *were* other interpretations until very recently. A few things that made sense (and brought peace) were this article by N.T. Wright, a leading English New Testament scholar, Pauline theologian, and retired Anglican bishop: Farewell to the Rapture

.....and this PDF file, titled Making All Things New http://cdn.bakerpublishinggroup.com...es/files/Excerpt_9780801049606.pdf?1453997989:

Making All Things New said:
This is not your ordinary book on eschatology. Usually when people hear that term, they think of the events connected to the future return of Jesus Christ and the very end of history. As a result, topics such as the rapture, the tribulation, and the millennium take center stage. Such an approach is often reinforced by systematic theology textbooks, which usually treat eschatology as a separate chapter focusing on these issues. But we believe that this understanding of eschatology is too narrow when it comes to what the Bible teaches. Our English term “eschatology” comes from two Greek words: eschatos (“last”) and logos (“word”). So, eschatology is the study of the “last things.” But as we will try to demonstrate, eschatology is not limited to the events connected to the return of Jesus Christ. According to the NT, the life, ministry, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus have ushered in the “latter days,” as promised in the OT. Therefore, the “latter days” encompass the entire time period between the first and second comings of Christ. As a result, eschatology is not limited to the “last chapter” of what God will do in this world but rather frames all that God has done and will do in Jesus Christ. Among biblical scholars and theologians this understanding has come to be known as “inaugurated eschatology.” The word “inaugurated” reflects the observation that while the latter-day new-creational kingdom has begun with the work of Jesus, it has not yet been consummated in all its fullness. Another way of referring to this phenomenon is to use the expression “already–not yet.” God’s kingdom has already found its initial fulfillment in and through Jesus Christ, the outpouring of the Spirit, and the formation of the eschatological people of God. But the kingdom has not yet been realized in all its fullness. Stated differently, God’s promises have found their initial fulfillment while still awaiting their complete and final consummation.

.....and this from Anthony Hoekema:

-------->All of history is moving toward a goal: the total redemption of the universe. History is not meaningless but meaningful. Though we are not always able to discern the meaning of each historical event, we know what the ultimate outcome of history will be. We eagerly look forward to the new earth as part of a renewed universe in which God’s good creation will realize finally and totally the purpose for which he called it into existence: the glorification of his name.

All this implies that regarding world history, amillennialists adopt a position of sober or realistic optimism. Belief in the present rule of Christ, in the presence of God’s kingdom and in the movement of history toward its goal is accompanied by a realistic recognition of the presence of sin in this world and of the growing development of the kingdom of evil.Amillennial eschatology looks for a culmination of apostasy and tribulation in the final emergence of a personal Antichrist before Christ comes again. Amillennialists do not expect to see the perfect society realized during this present age.

Yet, since we know that the victory of Christ over evil was decisive and that Christ is now on the throne, the dominant mood of amillennial eschatology is optimism — Christian optimism. This means that we view no world crisis as totally beyond help and no social trend as absolutely irreversible. It means that we live in hope — a hope that is built on faith and that expresses itself in love.~"Amillennialism: A Brief Sketch of Amillennial Eschatology" by Anthony Hoekema

blackhead · Nov 30, 2018

parousia70 said:
You can always erase that doubt with facts if you so choose.
Please educate yourself.

Homosexuality in ancient Greece - Wikipedia

Homosexuality in ancient Rome - Wikipedia

History of homosexuality - Wikipedia

Yeah I read the articles and they prove you are wrong. There was no SSM in earlier cultures and homosexuality wasn’t that widely practiced.

parousia70 · Nov 30, 2018

JacksBratt said:
I see what your doing there...

I guess, technically, the evil will be taken and we will be left behind and inhabit the earth during the millennial reign and for everlasting on the new earth with the new heaven.

However, physically, Noah was taken up in the ark, Lot was walked off the site, and destruction came to take away the evil ones.

We will be taken up and off the earth, while the evil ones are again taken away by God's wrath.

Well I see what you are doing there.... But I don't see that in the text itself.

Again Jesus is clear in Matt 24 - as in the flood, the wicked will be taken and the righteous left:

"Two in the field, one will be taken and the other left"
NOT
"Two in the field, both will be taken but one will be re-planted later"

End times are terrifying

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