PRAYING TO MARY AND THE SAINTS?

LoveGodsWord said:

Yes brother, thanks I have. I have read it from God's WORD. I do not find in God's WORD that we are to give her so much adoration though. Jesus says that all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW him are his family. *MATTHEW 12:46-50. From what I read in God's WORD. Mary was indeed blessed by God, but she was a sinner just like me and you who our Lord came to die for and save.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

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"Full of grace"?

God bless you, friend. The reality is, that quite a few Protestant translations, where careful and literal elsewhere, contain subtle licenses with the literal Greek when it comes to Mary.

For an Angel of God to greet a human with the salutation that Gabriel did is pretty monumental.

There are clues here and there, but one does have to know how to read them. The earliest Christian theologians, writing in the first several centuries after Christ, studied Scripture and found a *lot* of Mariology in there. A lot.

So did Luther.

LoveGodsWord said:

Hi Gracia, thankyou sister. For me I use only God's WORD as my guide. When I seek to know God's WORD I ask JESUS to be my guide and teacher according to the new covenant propmises in his Word *JOHN 14:26; 16:13; 7:17; 8:31-34; HEBREWS 8:11. I am no Hebrew and Greek scholar but I look at this as I can and I do not look at a single translation of the scriptures but multiple translations for word or scripture rendering. I believe God guides me in his Word though his Spirit accoring to his promises. I still cannot see anywhere in the scriptures that we are to pray to Mary and the saints and give her so much adoration and worship. This for me should only be rendered to God and God alone through Jesus our Lord and Saviour. Thanks for your thoughts Gracia. I respect and appreciate your view but for me only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it.

God bless you sister as you seek him who calls us in love to love another.

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You seem like a sweet soul, and a genuine seeker. God bless you for your respect for Scripture.

I would definitely recommend checking out the writings of the earliest Christian theologians who came right after and learned from the Apostles for their take on Mary, Scripture, what Scripture said and meant concerning her, and who she was to them. Some even wrote of meeting her in person! So cool!

Truly she is Blessed Among Women, and our Mother. God bless you, friend.

LoveGodsWord said:

Happy to do so brother

I could post a wall of scripture but I do not think it would be read. Can we start off slowly? What do you think the scriptures mean in the OLD TESTAMENT when it was representing ISRAEL as playing the harlot?

God bless you as you seek him through his Word?

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Since ancient Israel was occasionally presented (in scripture) as married to Jehovah it follows that playing the harlot would indicate Israel being unfaithful to Jehovah. I am sure you already knew that. Why ask me? Is it so you can find out what I think? I'm more interested in why you see current day churches as being in revelation 18.

LoveGodsWord said:

Hello brother GB, I think you know why I am asking you. If the scriptures show God's people are represented as a Harlot woman every time they were unfaithful in BELIEVEING and FOLLOWING God's WORD in the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures, who do you think a harlot woman represents in the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures?

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I do not think "every time" is even near the truth. And a "harlot woman" need not be God's people.

Jesus is the only mediator set for the Church and body of believers, Saints are merely righteous Christians who’ve completed their journey into true salvation and Sainthood which is why the Church canonizes them and recognizes their current place in paradise awaiting to be received into heaven, God’s true glorious presence on judgment day. Saints participate in the mediatorship of Christ, they don’t replace it. We pray to saints because the Bible tells us Christians are to offer prayers to one another:

In the Ephesians 1:15-23 Paul is giving thanks to God for our inheritance in Christ and that we would truly understanding all that we have in Him. He is asking God to give believers a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him.

Ephesians 1:15

15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him,

Ephesians 1:15-17

The Bible also says saints who have already joined God in his merciful presence may pray for us and hear us in our prayers:

And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.

And let’s not forget what the Church and Church Fathers have historically said about the intercession of Saints and the Mother of God.

LoveGodsWord said:

Hello brothers and sister.

First off and right to the point. I believe God has his people in EVERY CHURCH. Hoever, I believe the time in soming and now is that REVELATION 18 teaches us that many of the Churches of today have fallen away from God's WORD and God is calling his people out to worship him in Spirit and in truth *JOHN 10:16; JOHN 4:23.

1. I am just wondering where did the practice of praying to Mary and the Saints come from and what are your thoughts about this practice, is it biblical or not?

2. Mystery of iniquity, the antichrist, Babylon the Great the mother of harlots, any thoughts?

3. Who are the daughter harlots of Babylon the Great REVELATION 17:1-5?

If we are not following God's WORD in truth can we follow God's WORD in the Spirit (see also REVELATION 17:1-5)?

Only after peaceful discussing please and sharing of your thoughts.

God bless all.

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Is tattooing biblical?
Is Yoga biblical?
Is fasting on Good Friday biblical?
Is eating spaghetti biblical?

LoveGodsWord said:

So you believe REVELATION 14:8; REVELATION 17:1-5 and REVELATION 18:1-5 is talking about a literal woman brother despite what God's WORD says in the OLD TESTAMENT scripture defining scripture that a harlot woman can represents God's professed people that do not believe and follow God's WORD? Must have been a pretty busy Harlot in your view then if she is commtting formication with all the nations of the earth *REVELATION 14:8?

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"a literal woman"? could be a metaphor you know.

LoveGodsWord said:

1. I am just wondering where did the practice of praying to Mary and the Saints come from and what are your thoughts about this practice, is it biblical or not?

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To tell you the truth, it comes from Judaism. Many Jews, before and after 70 AD, pray at the graves of tzaddikim (righteous ones..."saints"). It is an ancient custom and tradition. This has been the common practice in Jewish communities around the world. In the Talmud and Zohar that not only is this permitted but it is a mitzvah to do so.

LoveGodsWord said:

Yes brother, thanks I have. I have read it from God's WORD. I do not find in God's WORD that we are to give her so much adoration though. Jesus says that all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW him are his family. *MATTHEW 12:46-50. From what I read in God's WORD. Mary was indeed blessed by God, but she was a sinner just like me and you who our Lord came to die for and save.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

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If you read God's word, and you get from that that she's a sinner just like me, then it's likely that in a significant way, you haven't understood the Word correctly, as I've already said somewhere else that there are many who don't. That she was saved by Christ death and the consequences of Adam's sin, this much is true. As for veneration of saints, there's an obvious disconnect from the reality of the nature of sainthood in a lot of people that causes them to mistake veneration of and Communion with them with idolatry. I read the same Word of God that you read, and have read it since childhood. Yet my God and your God appear to be beings of vastly different natures. Why? It is because God is not known through the Word alone, but by both the Holy Spirit, through the Word. The fullness of the Holy Spirit lives within the Body of Christ. By the grace of the Holy Spirit, I've been blessed with membership in the One Body. That is the only difference, really. By the Holy Spirit I've come to know that God lives and is glorified within all of His holy ones, who have themselves been transformed by the glorious operation of the Holy Spirit into true human beings, who are in the image and likeness of God. These are all worthy of honor/veneration (which is a means of expressing our own Love/Godliness). Among these, there is none more honorable than Mary, the mother of God (full of grace), and the Bible actually points this out even if many don't know how to not overlook it.

The selfish despot who is offended if beings who have God living in them are venerated, is no God of ours. Rather, that is the god that was painted by that ancient serpent to our first mother, Eve, who lied to her and told her that God did not want her to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because He did not want her and Adam to become God. But on the contrary, our God is a good and unselfish God Who humbled Himself to become one of us, even suffering and dying on the cross, so that we could become God by the operation of His Holy Spirit. Such are the saints of God, and especially Christ's mother. This eternal Truth is learned by the Holy Spirit, and through the Word, in Whom we have access to the Father.

HTacianas said:

I have never had to wonder why that is. It is because people have decided to go off on their own rather than believing the Church.

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Which church?

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

To tell you the truth, it comes from Judaism. Many Jews, before and after 70 AD, pray at the graves of tzaddikim (righteous ones..."saints"). It is an ancient custom and tradition. This has been the common practice in Jewish communities around the world. In the Talmud and Zohar that not only is this permitted but it is a mitzvah to do so.

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Before 70 AD... are they praying at the graves, or are they praying to the deceased persons. I came across this very custom looking for a Jewish precedence and it seems unclear, with one custom being that the grave reminds them of their mortality not that they prayed to the dead.

Sanoy said:

Before 70 AD... are they praying at the graves, or are they praying to the deceased persons. I came across this very custom looking for a Jewish precedence and it seems unclear, with one custom being that the grave reminds them of their mortality not that they prayed to the dead.

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Yes Both. The Talmud (Ta’anis 16a) says it is to serve as a reminder of our mortality so that we will repent while we still can and to ask the dead to pray for mercy on our behalf. Graves are visited because a cemetery where tzaddikim are buried is a place where prayers are more readily answered. The Mishnah says to pray for mercy in the merit of the tzaddikim who are buried there. So there are a couple of schools of thought on the subject...
Shalom

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Yes Both. The Talmud (Ta’anis 16a) says it is to serve as a reminder of our mortality so that we will repent while we still can and to ask the dead to pray for mercy on our behalf. Graves are visited because a cemetery where tzaddikim are buried is a place where prayers are more readily answered. The Mishnah says to pray for mercy in the merit of the tzaddikim who are buried there. So there are a couple of schools of thought on the subject...
Shalom

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Thank you for your knowledge on this. Are they praying to/through them, or are they using their location in the same tradition as Caleb? Is there any clear Jewish precedence (2nd temple or earlier) for communicating to God, or requesting something from God through a deceased ancestor. (Doesn't have to be in scripture, just something that would clearly indicate a cultural tradition of using a deceased ancestor in this way, Talmuds etc)

EzekielsWheels said:

I don't know as I'm not uppercase "c" Catholic but from what I understand in the Eastern Orthodox tradition this is like you or I asking each other to pray for each other. The issue is that Mary and the uppercase "s" Saints have fallen asleep and I would think trying to communicate with them would be akin to divination (would be interested in hearing why this is not the case actually). Also from what I understand people communicate with Mary because she is the Mother of God and has his "ear" so to speak or has special favor from him. On this point I would ask how doesn't this then diminish the love Jesus Christ has for us if we need to petition someone to petition him? It also appears to be putting another mediator between us and the Mediator and I think I 1 Timothy 2:5 speaks of the Lord as the "one mediator" so I just don't understand. I'm not trying to cast aspersions I just really don't understand (and of course my understanding of the position of those who venerate Mary and the Saints could be off as well). In sum I just feel like it cheapens our relationship with God.

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What makes you think Mary and the Saints are asleep? Revelation shows us that they are alive in heaven.
You know, nobody 'needs' to ask for Mary's intercession, or any Saint's intercession. The fact is that If Jesus is the King, Mary, his mother, is the Queen (See Solomon and Bathsheba), and does have his ear. Witness the Wedding Feast at Cana, the steward could have gone to Jesus Himself, but he didn't. He went to Mary, who (sort of) kickstarted Jesus into action.
I know you don't understand, I hope this helps (at least) to explain the Catholic POV.
Regarding the OP, some Catholics believe that Revelation partially speaks of the downfall of Rome in 70 AD. That would help answer questions 2 and 3. Regarding praying to the saints and Mary, it started almost immediately.

Sanoy said:

Thank you for your knowledge on this. Are they praying to/through them, or are they using their location in the same tradition as Caleb? Is there any clear Jewish precedence (2nd temple or earlier) for communicating to God, or requesting something from God through a deceased ancestor. (Doesn't have to be in scripture, just something that would clearly indicate a cultural tradition of using a deceased ancestor in this way, Talmuds etc)

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It is a bit of both like I said. Caleb went to pray at the grave site of the Patriarchs. It is said that he prayed: "Fathers of the world, pray for me that I be saved from the evil counsel of the other spies" (Sota 34b). He prayed at their burial site in order that their merit might help make his own prayers more acceptable. He was not praying TO them. He was asking they pray FOR him. It is said that these prayers are especially strong on the anniversary of the tzaddik's yahrzeit (the date of death). I don't have much time right now to post all the sources because it is almost Shabbat. I may have more time on Sunday. Shalom