Once saved always saved

Oldmantook said:

You have conveniently neglected to explain how the If clause in v.13 can ever apply to an unbeliever. Will your explanation be forthcoming? Therefore "If" in v13 can only apply to the regenerate believer. IF denotes possibility and choice. A believer can choose IF to live according to the flesh or IF to live according to the Spirit. An unbeliever has no such choice. For you to deny that is to deny the obvious.

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Have you checked your premise out on other "if" clauses in Scripture? I don't read, "...since
the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." Your logic is flawed, if it demands "if" cannot also work where you might think "since" would work better. In English, Greek, Spanish, for all I know most languages, "if" often does the same job as "since".

Mark Quayle said:

Have you checked your premise out on other "if" clauses in Scripture? I don't read, "...since
the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." Your logic is flawed, if it demands "if" cannot also work where you might think "since" would work better. In English, Greek, Spanish, for all I know most languages, "if" often does the same job as "since".

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You have not even dealt with text of Rom 8:13. That alone says much about the weakness of your position since you refuse to deal with it. Shall I await for your attempt to explain away the meaning of this verse or will you continue to conveniently ignore for the sake of clinging to your doctrine?
How can if mean since? If - means possibility. Since - means certainty. Two totally different meanings. You twist the English language. Like I wrote earlier, this verse is a 1st class conditional sentence which indicates cause and effect. If this condition - than that consequence. Your explanation holds no water whatsoever.

Kota said:

Are you saying you need works to be saved or not? I think I am misunderstanding what you are saying

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Yes you must have works in order to have a saving faith. It’s the faith that produces works. The absence of works indicates an absence of faith. James 14:2 is a great example of this.

ETERNAL SECURITY of the salvation of True Christ-followers.

Jesus taught and practiced FORGIVENESS OF SINS to believers...NOT loss of spiritual POSITION
Mark 11: 24-25
See ALSO: Luke 6: 36-38...Jesus: Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Jesus will never "..cast out " a true "sheep" ...believer.
John 6:35-40

Paul taught that: (NOTHING) ..."will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord...." Romans 8:35-39

John 10...Jesus the God-Man / and the Father hold you in their HANDS!...NOTHING can "snatch" you out!

The TRI-UNE God by Grace through Faith has saved the Souls and Spirits of all true believers:
1. shown uttermost LOVE...John 13:1
2. keeps us to Himself.....John 28:30
3. presents us faultless in heaven...Jude 24
4. makes intercession to maintain our saved relationship...Hebrews 7:25; 1 John 2:1
5. places us into the Body of Christ / indwelt by God the Holy Spirit...1 Cor. 12:13
6. seals us until the day of redemption...Ephesians 4:30

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel,
for it is the power of God FOR salvation to everyone who BELIEVES,
to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Once a spirit-led BELIEVER...ALWAYS a spirit-led BELIEVER. God does not take back His Ephesian 2 GIFTS!

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth,
the gospel of your salvation — having also BELIEVED,
you were SEALED in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Once a SEALED BELIEVER...always a SEALED BELIEVER. Once God gives you SPIRITUAL POSITION, He does not change it.

Once a son of God...Always a son of God

Once adopted into the family of God...Always adopted into the family of God

Once a sheep of the Good Shepherd...Always a sheep of the Good Shepherd

Once spiritually changed / "born again from above "...Always spiritually changed / "born again from above "

Once indwelt by God the Holy Spirit...Always indwelt by God the Holy Spirit

Once spiritually baptized into the Body of Christ...Always spiritually baptized into the Body of Christ

Once John 3 / Ephesian 2 saved...ALWAYS John 3 / Ephesian 2 SAVED

Once God performs His Loving works and gifts of salvation...GOD WILL NOT UN-DO THEM!...But He does FORGIVE SIN...NOT punish with the loss of SPIRITUAL POSITION.

2 Timothy 3:15
and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings
which are able to give you the wisdom that
leads to salvation THROUGH FAITH which is in Christ Jesus.

Luke 6
47 Everyone who COMES to Me and HEARS My words and ACTS on them,
I will show you whom he is like:
48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on "THE ROCK";
and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it,
because it had been well built.
49 But the one who has heard and has not ACTED accordingly,
is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation;(SINKING SAND!)
and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed,
and the ruin of that house was great.”

Once a BELIEVER is built on "THE ROCK"...ALWAYS will he stay built on "THE ROCK". God is your unchanging support.

Psalm 19:14
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O Lord,
my rock and my Redeemer.

Psalm 78:35
And they remembered that God was their rock,
And the Most High God their Redeemer.

Mark Quayle said:

Have you checked your premise out on other "if" clauses in Scripture? I don't read, "...since
the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." Your logic is flawed, if it demands "if" cannot also work where you might think "since" would work better. In English, Greek, Spanish, for all I know most languages, "if" often does the same job as "since".

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Good point.

Big difference between ‘if’ and ‘since’.

BNR32FAN said:

Yes you must have works in order to have a saving faith. It’s the faith that produces works. The absence of works indicates an absence of faith. James 14:2 is a great example of this.

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So then it’s not ‘Christ’ in me, but ‘me’ doing works.

That’s not scriptural either.

ToBeLoved said:

So then it’s not ‘Christ’ in me, but ‘me’ doing works.

That’s not scriptural either.

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What did Jesus say? Apart from Me YOU can do nothing. YOU cannot be fruitful unless you remain in Me. Those who remain in Me and I in them will produce much fruit. Jesus says the branch produces the fruit not the vine. He says those who abide are the ones producing fruit. This is why we will receive rewards in heaven according to our deeds. If we are doing nothing why are we receiving rewards? They would not be rewards but instead gifts if we did nothing to earn them. God enables us to do good works but we must choose to obey.

““I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-6‬

BNR32FAN said:

What did Jesus say? Apart from Me YOU can do nothing. YOU cannot be fruitful unless you remain in Me. Those who remain in Me and I in them will produce much fruit. Jesus says the branch produces the fruit not the vine. He says those who abide are the ones producing fruit. This is why we will receive rewards in heaven according to our deeds. If we are doing nothing why are we receiving rewards? They would not be rewards but instead gifts if we did nothing to earn them. God enables us to do good works but we must choose to obey.

““I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-6‬

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That seems much different from the way you worded your other post.

You said you must have works to have saving faith.

But that’s not what Jesus said

ToBeLoved said:

That seems much different from the way you worded your other post.

You said you must have works to have saving faith.

But that’s not what Jesus said

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Yes that is closer to the way James worded it in James 2:14

“What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14‬

redleghunter said:

What if a person is comatose?

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Then that person doesn’t have the ability to do good works much like the thief on the cross. I agree that there are situations where a person may not have either the ability or opportunity to do good works. Such I person can possibly be saved without having done works but for those of us who do have the ability and opportunity and still refuse to do good works we will be subject to judgement. That is the message in James 2:14-26 and John 15:1-10. If we are abiding in Christ and He in us we will produce fruit. If we do not produce fruit we do not abide in him and we will be cut off from the vine (Christ) carelessly thrown away to wither and thrown into the fire.

Oldmantook said:

You have not even dealt with text of Rom 8:13. That alone says much about the weakness of your position since you refuse to deal with it. Shall I await for your attempt to explain away the meaning of this verse or will you continue to conveniently ignore for the sake of clinging to your doctrine?
How can if mean since? If - means possibility. Since - means certainty. Two totally different meanings. You twist the English language. Like I wrote earlier, this verse is a 1st class conditional sentence which indicates cause and effect. If this condition - than that consequence. Your explanation holds no water whatsoever.

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Unless Rom 8:13 exists without context, the context is relevant (or maybe I should say IF it exists within a context...(since it does)). Your claim it stands alone and therefore must be dealt with alone is simply wrong. And like I just demonstrated within the parenthesis, IF can also serve in place of SINCE at times, and often does, in the English language as well as in perhaps most other languages.

An IF statement is propositional rhetoric. So is a SINCE statement. You are correct that the one assumes a certainty, while the other only assumes a given. Nevertheless, both propose that the result is dependent on the assumed. Consider these two statements: "If I am right about that, your claim is superfluous." "Since I am right about that, your claim is superfluous." Both those statements may be true, and neither keeps the other from being true.

As to your claim that I haven't dealt directly with Rom. 8:13 that is what I have been doing all along. But to repeat myself (in different words), Rom 8:13: "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." uses IF in two propositional statements: Assuming you live according to the flesh, you will die. Assuming you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. The truth of the second part of each phrase logically depends upon the truth of the first.

The persons addressed in the verse (see "context") are the members of the Roman church. This will include not only the actually regenerate, but those who claim to be. IF those who claim to be regenerate live according to the flesh, they will die.

Likewise, {IF those actually regenerate live according to the flesh, they will die} is a possibility if it is referring to a physical death, as opposed to spiritual. This is not my interpretation, but I reference it as a possibility.

So far, I see no way that Rom 8:13 proves me wrong about God accomplishing whatever he sets out to do, nor about the ability of anyone to overcome God's purposes, nor about any of those the God has chosen for eternal life being lost.

Perhaps it would be worth mentioning at this point that it makes no sense to call a supernatural being "God", as in THE self-existent omnipotent CREATOR, if anyone is able to undo what he has set out to do.

Mark Quayle said:

Have you checked your premise out on other "if" clauses in Scripture? I don't read, "...since
the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." Your logic is flawed, if it demands "if" cannot also work where you might think "since" would work better. In English, Greek, Spanish, for all I know most languages, "if" often does the same job as "since".

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Perhaps it also can be understood, (this is my first, or most obvious, understanding of the verse), referring to the regenerate alone, to propose an impossible scenario, such as in Hebrews 6 (see vs 4), where those regenerate, having been warned of the result of such a life, are further motivated to put to death the deeds of the flesh.

Either way, like I said, nobody can undo what God has done. Can Christ pay for sin that someone else also must pay for? Can someone make Christ's substitution of none effect? Will the Word of God return to him void?

Mark Quayle said:

Unless Rom 8:13 exists without context, the context is relevant (or maybe I should say IF it exists within a context...(since it does)). Your claim it stands alone and therefore must be dealt with alone is simply wrong. And like I just demonstrated within the parenthesis, IF can also serve in place of SINCE at times, and often does, in the English language as well as in perhaps most other languages.

An IF statement is propositional rhetoric. So is a SINCE statement. You are correct that the one assumes a certainty, while the other only assumes a given. Nevertheless, both propose that the result is dependent on the assumed. Consider these two statements: "If I am right about that, your claim is superfluous." "Since I am right about that, your claim is superfluous." Both those statements may be true, and neither keeps the other from being true.

As to your claim that I haven't dealt directly with Rom. 8:13 that is what I have been doing all along. But to repeat myself (in different words), Rom 8:13: "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." uses IF in two propositional statements: Assuming you live according to the flesh, you will die. Assuming you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. The truth of the second part of each phrase logically depends upon the truth of the first.

The persons addressed in the verse (see "context") are the members of the Roman church. This will include not only the actually regenerate, but those who claim to be. IF those who claim to be regenerate live according to the flesh, they will die.

Likewise, {IF those actually regenerate live according to the flesh, they will die} is a possibility if it is referring to a physical death, as opposed to spiritual. This is not my interpretation, but I reference it as a possibility.

So far, I see no way that Rom 8:13 proves me wrong about God accomplishing whatever he sets out to do, nor about the ability of anyone to overcome God's purposes, nor about any of those the God has chosen for eternal life being lost.

Perhaps it would be worth mentioning at this point that it makes no sense to call a supernatural being "God", as in THE self-existent omnipotent CREATOR, if anyone is able to undo what he has set out to do.

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The major weakness of your argument is that you are forced to substitute your own word "since" for the word "if." That is a risky endeavor when it comes to interpreting scripture to replace words inspired by the Spirit and replacing it with your own. That is not only lax interpretation but it also goes against Paul's intention. Koine Greek is a very specific language. Paul being very familiar with it, knew that he was constructing what is known in the Greek as a 1st class conditional sentence of which the IF is critical to the sentence structure. I think I already explained that to you in my previous post so I won't elaborate again. I suggest you study conditional sentences and what they entail in the Greek.

Given your rationale about God's purpose, I would then surmise that you would have no problem then accepting the mark of the beast because you can never become lost. You may protest and proclaim that you would never do such a thing. Peter did the same thing when he denied the Lord and we all know what happened to Peter. Fortunately for him, he was restored. If you take the mark will you still be okay with God? Just wondering.

Oldmantook said:

The major weakness of your argument is that you are forced to substitute your own word "since" for the word "if." That is a risky endeavor when it comes to interpreting scripture to replace words inspired by the Spirit and replacing it with your own. That is not only lax interpretation but it also goes against Paul's intention. Koine Greek is a very specific language. Paul being very familiar with it, knew that he was constructing what is known in the Greek as a 1st class conditional sentence of which the IF is critical to the sentence structure. I think I already explained that to you in my previous post so I won't elaborate again. I suggest you study conditional sentences and what they entail in the Greek.

Given your rationale about God's purpose, I would then surmise that you would have no problem then accepting the mark of the beast because you can never become lost. You may protest and proclaim that you would never do such a thing. Peter did the same thing when he denied the Lord and we all know what happened to Peter. Fortunately for him, he was restored. If you take the mark will you still be okay with God? Just wondering.

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I once read an article on communication where an example was given on two people talking past each other, the whole while wandering from the original argument. It was more entertaining than this, and more instructional.

I don't argue that the IF means SINCE. I argue that it can be used in many languages, including the Greek, where SINCE would suffice. Common logic uses IF - THEN statements, and so does common language. It need not say SINCE to work as SINCE.

But the original question has no particular need to revolve around Rom. 8:13. You brought up Rom. 8:13 and claimed I must show how it is wrong (or words to that effect). You yourself have not shown how it shows God must change his mind about those he has chosen and saved. If I was to take your method of debate I would quote myriad verses (and whole passages) and claim you must explain them away. I see no need to do that, because, to my mind, at least, they are mostly immediately self-evident (though ignored or misused by your theology).

Your argument about the mark of the Beast is a kind of logic used by the unsaved to (if you extrapolate all the way) show there is no God, since it is illogical to make a world needing saved --he could instantly create a Bride for his Son etc etc. You may as well say that my position is that there is no need for the redeemed to obey the Redeemer. That is ludicrous. No, I will not take the mark, but it I do, it identifies me. It is not a falling away from regeneration. Your free will position would make the outrageous claim that one living a life of disobedience will be able sans God's help, if educated sufficiently concerning the mark, to ultimately refuse it.

Do you think I would say an engaged couple may, without sin, have sex, since from God's point of view, they are as good as married by the promise? I don't. Consummation is according to its sequence in the whole matter -- in 1 John 3:2 what we are is yet to be revealed (Hebrews 2 also gives an example of such a logic). It must all fall out according to plan. No doubt when the whole matter is complete, we will "look back" at it all as simply spoken by the Creator, and so, done, since Time is only a tool of his. We are for now subject to time and sequence. We must obey. But it is the result, not the cause, of who we are in him. "Let it be so for now.....to fulfill all righteousness."

Enough for now. I think if we continue this, I must return to the original argument and quit chasing rabbits. They do deal with the original argument, but feel argumentative rather than instructional.

Mark Quayle said:

I don't argue that the IF means SINCE. I argue that it can be used in many languages, including the Greek, where SINCE would suffice. Common logic uses IF - THEN statements, and so does common language. It need not say SINCE to work as SINCE.

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Your response indicates that you have simply ignored Paul's use of the 1st class conditional sentence which is dependent on using the word if (ei in the Greek).This kind of sentence clause/construction does not allow for the word "since" which you of your own accord choose to substitute into the verse. I suggest you study the Greek conditional sentence construction and what they entail

Mark Quayle said:

Your argument about the mark of the Beast is a kind of logic used by the unsaved to (if you extrapolate all the way) show there is no God, since it is illogical to make a world needing saved --he could instantly create a Bride for his Son etc etc. You may as well say that my position is that there is no need for the redeemed to obey the Redeemer. That is ludicrous. No, I will not take the mark, but it I do, it identifies me. It is not a falling away from regeneration. Your free will position would make the outrageous claim that one living a life of disobedience will be able sans God's help, if educated sufficiently concerning the mark, to ultimately refuse it.

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Do the redeemed always have a choice to obey or not obey? Simple question, Yes or No? The unredeemed have no choice but to disobey since they are unregenerate. Do you possess a crystal ball so that you have definitely predicted that you will not take the mark? Would it not be more accurate to say that you hope you will never take mark since no can with 100% certainty predict what they might do or might not do - especially under extreme duress or persecution. I assume you are a believer and if you take the mark, it simply means according to your view that you were not and are not a believer today. I presume that would be ludicrous to you since you are a believer are you not? Therein lies the inconsistency of your view.

Mark Quayle said:

Do you think I would say an engaged couple may, without sin, have sex, since from God's point of view, they are as good as married by the promise? I don't. Consummation is according to its sequence in the whole matter -- in 1 John 3:2 what we are is yet to be revealed (Hebrews 2 also gives an example of such a logic). It must all fall out according to plan. No doubt when the whole matter is complete, we will "look back" at it all as simply spoken by the Creator, and so, done, since Time is only a tool of his. We are for now subject to time and sequence. We must obey. But it is the result, not the cause, of who we are in him. "Let it be so for now.....to fulfill all righteousness."

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Your view is problematic because it presumes that all genuine believers will obey. Yes we should obey but will all obey? Paul's various letters to the churches are replete with correction and warning to the brethren regarding problems with each other and with disobedient living. We have been given a new nature but must still deal with our old nature and that boils down to individual choice and behavior. That is precisely why we are instructed to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Believers have the choice whether their lives will yield good fruit or bad fruit. To ignore such is to ignore the obvious.