What is our obligation to the poor?

OldWiseGuy · Nov 29, 2018

Halbhh said:
I got curious -- Why don't the wealthy give more? What makes them often stingy??

From the more recent article, these interesting research results
Why Don't America's Rich Give More to Charity? - The Atlantic
:
Perhaps there is another way to think about this: Why would it be expected that society’s richest give money at all? After all, wealth doesn’t bestow unique insight, nor is it proof of empathy. Instead, there’s a body of psychological and behavioral-economics research suggesting that wealthy people are generally less caring, generous, and aware of how others think, feel, and live. Whether this is the case because money corrupts or because a certain type of person tends to want to accumulate it, this finding could at least partly explain why the well-off don’t give more than they do.

In a study published last year in the journal Psychological Science, for instance, Pia Dietze and Eric D. Knowles of New York University gave each of their subjects a pair of Google Glass and asked them to take a walk on a busy street. Using the technology to track people’s eye movements, the researchers discovered that their upper-income subjects spent significantly less time looking at other people in their field of vision. In another study, from 2010, researchers had their participants compare themselves with people either lower or higher on the income stratum. The men and women participating in the experiments picked up on emotional cues better when they looked to someone who earned more than they did, but not less. In other words, they read the situation better when they believed their status to be lower than others. And when they thought of themselves as higher-income, the ability dissipated.

The best-known study in this branch of research, titled “Higher Social Class Predicts Increased Unethical Behavior,” was published in 2012. It found that the higher a subject’s self-described social rank, the more candy they took from a jar labeled as being for children. In another experiment for that same paper, the nicer the car, the more likely a driver would cut off a pedestrian in a crosswalk or fail to yield to others at a four-way stop.

That's exactly what I experience in person! When you are crossing the space in front of a store, and a car is coming towards you, I've found out that if the car is a BMW, Benz, or Lexus, then I've learned by experience to be on my toes, because I do not want to get knocked down.

Same at a 4 way stop -- if they are in an expensive car, they are more liable to ignore the right of way rules.

I don't want to stereotype. No doubt some of the most considerate and fine acting people drive such cars....some. But then there are all the others.

Does that fit your own experience?

Not really. I've found that jerks come from all classes. Although the preponderance of cars that drive wildly over the speed limit on the interstate are the higher priced ones, notwithstanding that the most problematic drivers on the highway are truck drivers.

Petros2015 · Nov 29, 2018

DogmaHunter said:
Or a governmental program called "social housing".....

The closest governmental thing we have I think is Section 8

Section 8 (housing) - Wikipedia

Private landlords can offer rental blocks as Section 8 for lower rent to low income families or individuals. Someone can apply for Section 8 housing and then the government will make up the difference to the landlord. Certain terms and conditions apply to both parties (for mutual safety)

Also

In many localities, the PHA waiting lists for Section 8 vouchers may be thousands of families long, waits of three to six years to obtain vouchers is common, and many lists are closed to new applicants. (citation needed on the wiki article)

I'm not sure how hard it is to get Section 8 housing in my area or how low an income can make use of it, but I know some exists and some people I know I am pretty sure are making use of it.

Other than that, there are various halfway houses, shelters and some transitional programs in my hometown. I'm nor sure if they get government funding or it is all based on private donations. Possibly they get tax exemption.

https://www.thereligiouscoalition.org/
https://www.therescuemission.org/
Way Station, Inc – providing compassionate and quality behavioral health care, housing and employment services to adults with mental illness, developmental disabilities, and substance addictions

These guys aren't local to me, they are nearby in DC, but I feel like they've got the right idea and offer more 'get on your feet' services while still providing a hot meal. A good place to make a donation in my opinion.

Affordable Housing Initiative :: So Others Might Eat

Halbhh · Nov 29, 2018

zephcom said:
The idea that people can deduct their charity from taxes has always baffled me. By allowing the deduction, the government is forced to participate in the giving yet never receives any credit for subsidizing charity around the nation.

I guess I should get some of the credit for charity to orchestras and museums too.

I think this is an ok thing, in that it allows individuals to help choose what government supports, in a partial, limited way, as a modest percent, like only 25% for instance.

OldWiseGuy · Nov 29, 2018

zephcom said:
No they are not. At least not any more free that Roman citizens were.

Most of the masses in the Roman empire were slaves or vassals.

zephcom said:
We certainly like the illusion of being free but we are caged by massive amounts of law which restrict our ever action. We are now being monitored in everything we do.

Doesn't bother me. In fact I have at the ready the fine for 'open container'. Haven't paid yet. ^_^

zephcom said:
We can't even leave the country without permission from the government.

I've been to Canada and Mexico without government permission.

OldWiseGuy · Nov 29, 2018

W2L said:
That made me think about the widows mite. The rich gave a lot but she gave all.

As you get older and more cynical (fed up) you naturally care less about those who don't seem to want to get it together regardless of how much you try to help them.

Halbhh · Nov 29, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
Not really. I've found that jerks come from all classes. Although the preponderance of cars that drive wildly over the speed limit on the interstate are the higher priced ones, notwithstanding that the most problematic drivers on the highway are truck drivers.

Ok. I know trucks are much more concerning in some locales. One of the most routinely frightening places to drive (and I only drove it about 8 times) is the highway in New Jersey near the shore (across from NYC), on the way to Connecticut, where the trucks on that curving odd, high speed road are seriously frightening.

Let's go back to the real topic though. This came to mind:

41 Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42 But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few cents.

43 Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.”

I've thought of this usually as about being all-in -- it's not just money, but whether one's energy and focus and overall resources are for the Kingdom. But it's notable here that He says she gave "more".

So, therefore, she indeed gave more. This is then the Truth of it.

W2L · Nov 29, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
As you get older and more cynical (fed up) you naturally care less about those who don't seem to want to get it together regardless of how much you try to help them.

I suppose there are such people in the world.

OldWiseGuy · Nov 29, 2018

Halbhh said:
I think this is an ok thing, in that it allows individuals to help choose what government supports, in a partial, limited way, as a modest percent, like only 25% for instance.

25 percent of all taxes go to social programs. That's you and me contributing heartily, even before private donations are included.

OldWiseGuy · Nov 29, 2018

Halbhh said:
Ok. I know trucks are much more concerning in some locales. One of the most routinely frightening places to drive (and I only drove it about 8 times) is the highway in New Jersey near the shore (across from NYC), on the way to Connecticut, where the trucks on that curving odd, high speed road are seriously frightening.

Let's go back to the real topic though. This came to mind:

41 Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42 But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few cents.

43 Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.”

I've thought of this usually as about being all-in -- it's not just money, but whether one's energy and focus and overall resources are for the Kingdom. But it's notable here that He says she gave "more".

So, therefore, she indeed gave more. This is then the Truth of it.

This was in regard to the temple offerings, not charity for the poor.

OldWiseGuy · Nov 29, 2018

W2L said:
I suppose there are such people in the world.

It's kinda like "three strikes and you're out."

Halbhh · Nov 29, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
This was in regard to the temple offerings, not charity for the poor.

Ok, any other thoughts?

OldWiseGuy · Nov 29, 2018

Halbhh said:
Ok, any other thoughts?

Sure. The problem of poverty has a built in solution. As those low-skilled paper shufflers employed in the bloated government welfare agencies begin to retire in greater numbers the poor that they 'serve' can be hired to replace them (after a week or two of training of course). Problem solved. Oh wait. They will need millions of new poor to justify their newly found jobs (Open the borders!).

Never mind.

zephcom · Nov 29, 2018

Halbhh said:
I think this is an ok thing, in that it allows individuals to help choose what government supports, in a partial, limited way, as a modest percent, like only 25% for instance.

From a philosophical point of view, government encouragement for charitable giving can certainly be justified. From where I look at things, offering deductions for -anything- has to be a massive headache for bookkeeping and budgeting.

The reality is that it is impossible to verify every single tax return in this nation. And that means it is impossible for the government to know what it paid for and what is cheating. What is to keep someone from donating $100,000 to their favorite orchestra which holds the proper certificates as a tax exempt organization and then declaring a donation of $200,000? An audit is the only thing which would discover that and audits are such a low possibility that many people would succumb to the temptation.

I'm not necessarily opposed to using tax money as incentives to get the people to do something. But all those incentives should be included in the budget with line items designation what the cost is. People should receive a rebate check after documentation is received. instead of the government just taking their word they did something.

Tax loopholes are a bottomless pit and charity giving is just a small part of that bottomless pit. If I were in charge of the tax laws, there would be absolutely no deductions or credit given anyone. Everything would have to go through the budget process every year.

Petros2015 · Nov 29, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
25 percent of all taxes go to social programs. That's you and me contributing heartily, even before private donations are included.

Hmm...

I guess it depends on how you look at it? Seems like 9% is going into Safety Net Programs that deal with poverty, unemployment. Good lord... um we might need to dial some of these back a little...?

Details below

Policy Basics: Where Do Our Federal Tax Dollars Go?

Petros2015 · Nov 29, 2018

Well, this sheds a whole new light on things. Based on the what I am seeing above, the solution is simple.

Once people turn 60, if we eat them, I think we'll get about 50% of the budget back.

zephcom · Nov 29, 2018

Petros2015 said:
Well, this sheds a whole new light on things. Based on the what I am seeing above, the solution is simple.

Once people turn 50, if we eat them, I think we'll get about 50% of the budget back.

Not wanting to be argumentative, but by age fifty, people are pretty tough and stringy. That is not appealing at all. Perhaps we should eat nearly all the young ones and only leave a few to age and do the eating.

Just sayin', the young ones would be more tender and tasty....

zephcom · Nov 29, 2018

Petros2015 said:
Hmm...

I guess it depends on how you look at it? Seems like 9% is going into Safety Net Programs that deal with poverty, unemployment. Good lord... um we might need to dial some of these back a little...?

View attachment 246097
Details below

Policy Basics: Where Do Our Federal Tax Dollars Go?

Those percentages would change if the chart included both money not collected because of tax deductions and credits and military spending that has been designated as 'off-budget'.

It is impossible to know what the government is doing with our money unless the government accounts for all of our money.

zephcom · Nov 29, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
Most of the masses in the Roman empire were slaves or vassals.

Doesn't bother me. In fact I have at the ready the fine for 'open container'. Haven't paid yet.

I've been to Canada and Mexico without government permission.

Regardless of your personal experiences, the reality is that America is not unlike the Roman Empire of ancient times. Unfortunately, every government which has attempted to rule the world has, ultimately, collapsed. America will be no different.

Halbhh · Nov 29, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
Sure. The problem of poverty has a built in solution. As those low-skilled paper shufflers employed in the bloated government welfare agencies begin to retire in greater numbers the poor that they 'serve' can be hired to replace them (after a week or two of training of course). Problem solved. Oh wait. They will need millions of new poor to justify their newly found jobs (Open the borders!).

Never mind.

Typically, those that are ambitious enough to travel to America want to work.

I met more than just a couple. And worked with some here and there, including for months on one job, and interacted with them face to face. I more than once was working with them shoulder to shoulder, and I know they pulled their weight, did their share. (btw, it's important today in 2018 for believers to know what's in 1 Cor 6:10, that we have to avoid the fashion in American and not revile people, even if other people are doing it).

Halbhh · Nov 29, 2018

zephcom said:
From a philosophical point of view, government encouragement for charitable giving can certainly be justified. From where I look at things, offering deductions for -anything- has to be a massive headache for bookkeeping and budgeting.

The reality is that it is impossible to verify every single tax return in this nation. And that means it is impossible for the government to know what it paid for and what is cheating. What is to keep someone from donating $100,000 to their favorite orchestra which holds the proper certificates as a tax exempt organization and then declaring a donation of $200,000? An audit is the only thing which would discover that and audits are such a low possibility that many people would succumb to the temptation.

I'm not necessarily opposed to using tax money as incentives to get the people to do something. But all those incentives should be included in the budget with line items designation what the cost is. People should receive a rebate check after documentation is received. instead of the government just taking their word they did something.

Tax loopholes are a bottomless pit and charity giving is just a small part of that bottomless pit. If I were in charge of the tax laws, there would be absolutely no deductions or credit given anyone. Everything would have to go through the budget process every year.

Sure. Trying to audit more tax returns is laudable. I'm not really that concerned about those that cheat because we know the only hope people can have is only through Christ, and merely catching them cheating won't help them much. I mean I'm more concerned to tell them the Good News, that they might be helped in a more profound way that matters -- by a true change of heart.

What is our obligation to the poor?

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