You have made a number of fundamental errors in your examination of this text....
Firstly you are still repeatedly making the unwarranted assumption that it is Jesus whom we see 'face to face' when his name does not appear in this scripture. You are eisegetically adding it.
I do not agree with your reasoning here.
His name does not have to appear. Its interesting you take issue with me here, when nowhere in the text does Paul refer to the scriptures coming in a cannon in the future as some imply.
Even when you give verses about face to face not specifically referring to the Lord they still relate to one person face to face with another. Not face to face with them self in the scriptures.
Paul says a similar expression of then I shall know as i am known. This I believe refers to a similar expression Paul uses when he speaks of the resurrection of the dead and our heavenly state or glorified body and and all things that are before us and the High Calling of God he says
"12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend [perceive apprehend, obtain,] that for which also I am apprehended [perceive apprehend, obtain,] of Christ Jesus.13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended"(Philippians 3:12 KJV)
These two expressions in 1 Cor 13 and Philippians here are similar and the one in Philippians shows who is apprehending us it is Christ Jesus. I believe this is also the same as when Paul says
"...but then shall I know [perceive, acknowledge fully aquainted with] even as also I am known [perceive apprehend, obtain,]"
Second, the Greek word teleios (which some bibles translate 'the perfect', others 'completeness') is an adjective without an associated noun. It is also in the neuter gender. That rules it out from being a perfect "man" (teleios is masculine in Eph 4).
No it doesn't. Paul doesn't use the word perfect in direct connection to the perfect man. though he does connect it as in this section
"10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away....but when I became a man..."(1 Cor 13:10,11 KJV)
The expression "that" which is perfect is in contrast to that which is in part. In a sense this can refer to many things, to our glorified body to come, our heavenly state and fullness of Christ, the wonderous state and fullnes of heaven and the revelations to come. The knowing of God and Jesus Christ an the things of God no more in part.
But it does not say this refers to the scriptures. The word perfecti
on your assumption would also be "without an associated noun".
I see a direct connection to THAT which is perfect is come when Paul says this in Philippians
"11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Paul talks of the resurrection from the dead and says,
1 Corinthians 15:42
"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:"
1 Corinthians 15:43
"It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:"
1 Corinthians 15:44
"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."
So when Paul uses the expression "that which is perfect is come" it can refer to all aspects of fullness that God shows in the glorified state including being raised in incorruption, and power and a spiritual body where no more in part prophecy or tongues or knowledge are needed in part, for we shall know as we are known. We will have all things and be unto the fullness of Christ unto the perfect man to the image of His Son Jesus Christ.
Then Paul says,
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you."(Philippians 3:11-15 KJV)
Paul says he reaches forth
"unto those things". These
things are all encompassing in a resurrected body in glory and power. So when
THAT which is perfect is come. We will be in a state of perfection we shall be as He is.It is difficult to narrowly define that which is perfect come. The expression,
"Those things"(Phil 3:13) and
"that" )1 Cor 13:10 define wonders of our future perfection and state that are similar.
"It also rules it out from referring to Christ. Whatever the adjective is describing it cannot be a simple noun (such as the coming of Christ, the 'eschaton', or our glorified bodies), otherwise Paul would have used that particular noun. It must be a concept that cannot easily be expressed as a single word. Something like 'the completion and distribution of the completed canon'.
I just expressed how it can be a concept that we can barely comprehend.
So when Paul uses the expression "
that which is perfect is come" it can refer to
all aspects of fullness that God shows in the glorified state including being raised in incorruption, and power and a spiritual body where no more in part prophecy or tongues or knowledge are needed in part, for we shall know as we are known. We will have all things and be unto the fullness of Christ unto the perfect man to the image of His Son Jesus Christ.
Paul says he reaches forth
"unto those things". These
things are all encompassing in a resurrected body in glory and power. So when
THAT which is perfect is come. We will be in a state of perfection we shall be as He is.It is difficult to narrowly define that which is perfect come. The expression,
"Those things"(Phil 3:13) and
"that" )1 Cor 13:10 define wonders of our future perfection and state that are similar.
If you try to make it refer to scriptures (noun) and I say it is a glorified state in a new body and the fullness of Christ the perfect man perfect state of being in Christ and all those things that we press forward for. Then you have no evidence but conjecture. But I have scripture for almost every word and verses that help to define it.
We now thoroughly know God's revelation to man in the form of the completed scriptures.
i see that which is perfect as the the completeness in Christ that is to come which would encompass our glorified boy and the power and fullness of Christ. Not scriptures to come. Paul didn't mention the scriptures here at all. They were compiled much later when Paul had already died and gone to the Lord. Yet he speaks of when that which is perfect is come he
said "...but then shall I know even as also I am known .
Clearly Paul says that whatever the perfect is come refers to he would know as he is known, then.So this cannot refer to the scriptures. These scriptures were really compiled much later and not universally till much later. They already had the scriptures also and all things that pertain to godliness in Christ in them As Paul said.
Paul had no idea when the canon would be complete. Nor did he know when he would die.
He didn't have to he wrote the commandments of the Lord the Lord knew and Paul spoke by revelation. He knew what he was talking about and if it was about the scriptures he would have said. The scripture cannon argument is very weak and does not fit this section at all. It is too contrived and trying to make some conjecture to eliminate prophecy and tongues and knowledge and the gifts of the spirit for today.
In any case, Paul frequently uses himself as an example in the place of the Corinthians using the first person "I" . 1 Cor 13:1-3, 1 Cor 14:11, 1 Cor 14:14-15.
No, all these are about Pauls personal perspective and can relate to him personally if he were to be in similar situations. Paul can only speak of "i" when he personally knows the issues and they relate to his understanding and even if he uses himself as an example, he speaks from truth and about his own understanding in Christ and related to him as well.
In fact he frequently uses "we" and "you" and "I" in the exact same contexts. In 1 Cor 13:12
No, you are wrong here. It seems that you are trying to downplay Pauls strong argument about his personal knowing of that which is perfect come. Yoo must know that this argument about Opaul seeing that which is perfect one day and to then know as he is known is a strong one that defeats the entire argument against the gifts and prophecy continuing.
Paul said,
"9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part...12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
Paul simply speaks of all of the Corinthians,
himself included when he says "we" related to prophesying in part and seeing darkly
for now. But
then in the future he uses the personal expression "I" speaking of a revelation of His own faith and assurance and says
"then shall I know even as I am known. There is no reason to think when he uses the personal "
I" that he does not mean himself. This is such a strong argument against your theory of the scripture being that which is perfect that I can see no way out of it by you, even with a snow storm of Greek and straining at grammatical structures that you seem to bring grasping at straws (which don't prove what your trying to make them in this instance).
There was only a limited number of prophets that could guide the early church in 'the faith'. They could not make themselves available to every single Christian in the world on demand. That is why they prophesied 'in part'. They were piecemeal prophecies only giving a single glimpse of Truth for that moment in time. The church needed the completed scriptures to be able to "fully know" God's revelation to man.
You sound like you just make up stuff and then believe it. The early church was not some weak ignorant believers who did not have what we have today so they were not able to fully know God's revelation. Scripture rebukes this idea you present here strongly. I repeat a few verses for you
""15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."(This scripture Paul speaks of refers to the Old Testament scriptures which Paul also said that the gospel was according to in 1 Cor 15. This is way before the complete cannon collected. This idea that they were ignorant and weak and did not have the provision to be strong in faith is not correct.Notice also the reference from a child.
2 Peter 1:3
"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:"
"4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. ...8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:"(Colossians 2:4,8-10 KJV)
"26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."
