I need some advice please

GingerBeer

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I am seeking some additional responses to an ongoing problem at my house.

I have a dear friend that I love so much and he has always talked with me about his views being Church of Christ and we would always banter back and forth playfully as I am a grace by faith believer.
However he decided to bring over a Dr friend of his that has memorized a bunch of scripture {A bunch} and is very "book" smart and a COC minister and they started a debate over my doctrine.

He straight up told me that I was a heretic because I do not believe that works save us. [I do not]
he stated that they are biblically mandatory as Naaman had to dip 7 times in the Jordan etc.

This has turned into an all out battle of the scriptures as they have came here three times now and we have spent much time going back and forth.
I keep telling them [simply] that at the death of Jesus a new testament began and the apostle Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and he brought about the mystery of salvation by Grace through Faith, Which was what God wanted all along. Was faith.
I was taught this in school and I also believe it with all my heart.

I see Romans 6:3,4 as a 'spiritual' baptism and they see it as 'water'.
This is only the very beginning of it all as also I don't attend the "one" true "church of Christ" so I am damned lol

Can you guys give me BOTH sides here and let us rightly divide the Word as stated 2 Tim.

Again I do not want another hard debate, Just some different viewpoints to look at.
Thanks guys.
Without commenting on your theology or theirs ... why not say, okay fellows, we've had this out long enough. You're welcome to visit as friends and I value your friendship but please, no more theology wars. I do not like it and I have no intention of joining CoC. Next time a theology war breaks out, please respect my wishes, and go.
 
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GingerBeer

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They might not admit defeat, but the Achilles heal of all conditional salvation schemes is that God provides salvation only for the self-righteous. And we know how repugnant self-righteousness is. Whether foreseen and predestined. Or happening in real time.
What a negative way to paint the idea that salvation comes from the grace of God through faith that is alive with good works as Ephesians 2:8-10 says. It isn't self-righteous to affirm that Christians are called to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling because in so doing they know that it is God who is at work in them, enabling them both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
 
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GingerBeer

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I've dealt with the COC crowd before.

There is no convincing them ... they will ultimately disassociate from you if you hold to your "salvation by grace" position, among others ...
If they do then it is no great loss when they depart. Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses likely also disassociate from people who will not receive their message.
 
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GingerBeer

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We are in a constant scripture war and I do not like to be accused of being a heretic, They have thrown out some good stuff that I cannot deny, however they cannot see any other way than doing some fleshly works as mandatory to receive salvation .
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
They keep saying see, You have to believe and that is a work too? This has been a drain on me.
You know what? there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that belief takes effort and that it is a work and that God is at work in Christians to enable them to believe. What needs to be combatted is the idea that obeying commandments and rules by your own effort will eventually bear fruit and win (or earn) salvation for you.
 
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GingerBeer

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I just can't see Romans 6 3,4 as water immersion, They say this is because I am indoctrinated and that is why. So I have really been studying however I still cannot make it work in my simple mind.
This is us placed spiritually in the body of Christ
Romans 6:1-14 is about death to sin (in Christ) and resurrection (in Christ) to the new life in Christ. Baptism is dying in or with Christ and rising in or with Christ to the new life. Christians have only one baptism (Ephesians 4:4-6) so it is best not to divide baptism into two or more things. Baptism is a mystery by which and through which God performs the things that Paul describes in Romans 6.
 
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Ing Bee

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Hi Southernscotty-

Almost the entire book of Galatians is devoted to one concept; false teachers had "bewitched" the Galatian churches by insisting that one additional work needed to be added to Christ's death on the cross, namely circumcision. Paul says that if you add even one work to grace, it is of no use to you. Either we place our personal trust and confidence in Christ alone as the only securer of our new life and freedom from the kingdom of sin and death, or we have to construct our own righteousness...which is powerless.

Read Ephesians 1:3-14 and you will see a list of things God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) accomplished on our behalf, but no commands!

This is similar to Romans 6 in which no commands occur until after a list of spiritual facts have been stated (v.11) and is followed by verse 14, another promise that says "For sin will have no dominion over you since you are not under law but under grace."

It is my experience that people are confused on the subject of faith and works because they are reading with "religious" lenses rather than "relational" lenses. Paul always puts the grace first because, due to God's initiative (Romans 5:8) we have been brought into a new, father/child relationship with Him (John 1:12-13). Once you are adopted into a new family, you learn how your family culture works and you start to live that way. Since we have been transferred "the kingdom of the beloved Son" (Colossians 1:13 –notice the past tense and the fact that this was done to us, not by us), we live like citizens enjoying the benefits and parameters of Jesus' rule.

Be candid with your friend. You value the friendship, but he is not treating you with respect. This is not the pattern of Jesus or the apostles.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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We are in a constant scripture war and I do not like to be accused of being a heretic, They have thrown out some good stuff that I cannot deny, however they cannot see any other way than doing some fleshly works as mandatory to receive salvation .
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
They keep saying see, You have to believe and that is a work too? This has been a drain on me.
That verse says it is God's work that we believe on him(Christ). If you put that verse with all of these verses it is easy to see that it is by the work/grace of God that we have been called to repentance and salvation through faith under grace.
Jon 15:16
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Called by God(God's work not our own) to repentance and faith(Luke 5:32; 2 Tim 1:9; Matt 22:14; John 15:16; Romans 8:28; 1 Thess 5:24; Philippians 3:14; 2 Thess 2:14; 1 Peter 1:15-16;1 Peter 2:21; 1 Cor 1:9)

Grace of God called to salvation and faith(Ephesians 1:5-9; Romans 8:29-33; Ephesians 2:8-10; Romans 6:14; Romans 11:5-6; 1 Cor 15:10; Titus 2:11-14; Romans 3:22-27)

Faith is not a work, faith comes from understanding, love, and Belief in Christ and the Lord God YHWH. It is not something you perform, it is something that is just within you, mind, heart, and soul.

After salvation by faith comes justification by works as well as faith(James 2;1 John 3:17-18)

The righteous shall live by faith(Romans 1:16-19)

I hope this helps
 
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ace of hearts

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I am seeking some additional responses to an ongoing problem at my house.

I have a dear friend that I love so much and he has always talked with me about his views being Church of Christ and we would always banter back and forth playfully as I am a grace by faith believer.
However he decided to bring over a Dr friend of his that has memorized a bunch of scripture {A bunch} and is very "book" smart and a COC minister and they started a debate over my doctrine.

He straight up told me that I was a heretic because I do not believe that works save us. [I do not]
he stated that they are biblically mandatory as Naaman had to dip 7 times in the Jordan etc.

This has turned into an all out battle of the scriptures as they have came here three times now and we have spent much time going back and forth.
I keep telling them [simply] that at the death of Jesus a new testament began and the apostle Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and he brought about the mystery of salvation by Grace through Faith, Which was what God wanted all along. Was faith.
I was taught this in school and I also believe it with all my heart.

I see Romans 6:3,4 as a 'spiritual' baptism and they see it as 'water'.
This is only the very beginning of it all as also I don't attend the "one" true "church of Christ" so I am damned lol

Can you guys give me BOTH sides here and let us rightly divide the Word as stated 2 Tim.

Again I do not want another hard debate, Just some different viewpoints to look at.
Thanks guys.
I feel for you. Sometime ago I had an above average neighbor who was a member of the same type of church. We were friends talking every week at each others houses. He approached me to discuss the Scripture. I was more than willing. It became clear to me that it was an evangelistic indoctrination effort on their part. They were clearly unwilling to listen to Scripture. This went on for more than 10 years. Their confession was that they never met anyone like me, who had a response for everything they came up with. Finally they even cussed me. Like you I'm extremely pro grace. Over the years what was preached and practiced in the organization(s) I attended didn't work and almost cost me my soul. I asked God to bring to memory what I needed. I've read the Bible cover to cover a few times. Then came the internet and many wonderful study resources. I could now get the verses I remembered parts of by a single word. I could also see every verse that had the same word in it. I would look up words in definitions of the Hebrew and Greek. People could no longer give a false definition of a key word.

The key thing I did because of disagreement was to tell them all further exchanges would be written. This allowed me to think about what they said and to divorce emotion and not clearly thought through responses.

After the more than 10 years I had to tell them we were no longer friends and not to come back to my place. Yes that was sad.

A few sites I love are:
Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages
Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.
 
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Deborah D

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I feel for you. Sometime ago I had an above average neighbor who was a member of the same type of church. We were friends talking every week at each others houses. He approached me to discuss the Scripture. I was more than willing. It became clear to me that it was an evangelistic indoctrination effort on their part. They were clearly unwilling to listen to Scripture. This went on for more than 10 years. Their confession was that they never met anyone like me, who had a response for everything they came up with. Finally they even cussed me. Like you I'm extremely pro grace. Over the years what was preached and practiced in the organization(s) I attended didn't work and almost cost me my soul. I asked God to bring to memory what I needed. I've read the Bible cover to cover a few times. Then came the internet and many wonderful study resources. I could now get the verses I remembered parts of by a single word. I could also see every verse that had the same word in it. I would look up words in definitions of the Hebrew and Greek. People could no longer give a false definition of a key word.

The key thing I did because of disagreement was to tell them all further exchanges would be written. This allowed me to think about what they said and to divorce emotion and not clearly thought through responses.

After the more than 10 years I had to tell them we were no longer friends and not to come back to my place. Yes that was sad.

A few sites I love are:
Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages
Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.
Writing instead of talking can be vey helpful. One of my kids and I used to text each from opposite ends of the house when we were too mad to talk face to face. LOL

Maybe Scotty should invite them to participate in this thread. :sorry:
.
 
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Dropout_Theologian

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I am seeking some additional responses to an ongoing problem at my house.

I have a dear friend that I love so much and he has always talked with me about his views being Church of Christ and we would always banter back and forth playfully as I am a grace by faith believer.
However he decided to bring over a Dr friend of his that has memorized a bunch of scripture {A bunch} and is very "book" smart and a COC minister and they started a debate over my doctrine.

He straight up told me that I was a heretic because I do not believe that works save us. [I do not]
he stated that they are biblically mandatory as Naaman had to dip 7 times in the Jordan etc.

This has turned into an all out battle of the scriptures as they have came here three times now and we have spent much time going back and forth.
I keep telling them [simply] that at the death of Jesus a new testament began and the apostle Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and he brought about the mystery of salvation by Grace through Faith, Which was what God wanted all along. Was faith.
I was taught this in school and I also believe it with all my heart.

I see Romans 6:3,4 as a 'spiritual' baptism and they see it as 'water'.
This is only the very beginning of it all as also I don't attend the "one" true "church of Christ" so I am damned lol

Can you guys give me BOTH sides here and let us rightly divide the Word as stated 2 Tim.

Again I do not want another hard debate, Just some different viewpoints to look at.
Thanks guys.

I have been looking lately at how works are a part of Salvation. It seems abundantly clear that works are required. Yet faith alone seems to be required at other places. This would lead me to believe, with some consternation, that works are a necessity of faith. I apologize, I do not have references at this time. As to the true church, depending on the person, a Catholic or Orthodox would also say you are not a part of the true church as well, to name a couple that I know. I would say not to worry about that. Perhaps this is a good opportunity to set up some boundaries, Lord have mercy, and stick to your guns, maybe research it a bit better for your own sake, maybe theirs' too.
 
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@Southernscotty:

The issue that Paul has in the book of Galatians and the book of Romans was "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which was a part of the Old Law or the Old Contract, i.e. the 613 laws given to Israel). The Old Covenant (Old Contract) is no more. So when Paul condemned the Law or works, the context was "Circumcision Salvationism" or in trying to be justified by following the whole of the Old Contract (i.e. the Old Covenant). Paul was not referencing the commands of Jesus Christ.

We see this clearly in Acts at the Jerusalem counsel that "Circumcision Salvationism was condemned:

  1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

  2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”...................................................................................................................................................................................................
  3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

We can see hints of this by Paul, too.

  1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”

  2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

  3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

  4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”

  5. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)

  6. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

  7. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”

  8. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

  9. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are dealing with "Initial Salvation" and it was said as a means that one is not saved by "Works Alone Salvationism" (that did not include God's grace by faith). In other words, if you first come to Christ, you cannot put the cart (works) before the horse (God's grace). Otherwise one's foundation is all wrong. Anyways, if you were to keep reading in Ephesians, it says in Ephesians 5 that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God (Ephesians 5:3-6). If you read Titus 3:15, you also have to skip back and read Titus 2:11-12 that says the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously, and godly in this present world. So God's grace does not teach that we can sin and still be saved. That would be contrary to what Titus 2:11-12 says about what God's grace teaches.

Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 have to be read in context to Romans 3:11.
For if one claims that the Christian is currently walking in a present state of sin based on these verses, then, they must also apply Romans 3:11 as talking about the present walk of the believer, as well. Romans 3:11 says that they are without understanding and they do not seek after God. Are Christians without understanding and do they not seek after God?

1 John 1:8 is another popular one folks like to use to justify that we can sin and still be saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. But John is warning the brethren against the gnostic's beliefs (1 John 2:26). The gnostics believed sin did not exist or that it was an illusion. So they thought that they did not have any sin. This is evident by 1 John 1:10. For 1 John 1:10 is a person denying that they have sinned in the past. Obviously we both agree that we have sinned in the past, so John is talking about a gnostic belief in 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10. Christian Scientists today believe sin is an illusion and so 1 John 1:8 would be a warning to them. There are believers who think future sin is paid for. So when they sin, they think on a spiritual level (not on a physical level), sin does not exist for them because Jesus paid for all their sins already. But 1 John 1:8 says you cannot deny sins existence. The proper way to deal with sin is to confess it so as to be forgiven (See 1 John 1:9).

As for Romans 7:14-24:
Paul is speaking from his past experience here as a Pharisee who sought to be justified or saved by Law alone without God's grace in the false Pharisee religion. He tried to obey God's laws this way and it did not work. In Romans 13:14, Paul says put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and fulfill not the lusts of the flesh. So a person needs Jesus to overcome sin and not by law keeping alone.

Paul was not speaking against "Works of Faith" as a part of one's faith (James 2:18). "Works of faith" merely shows that a person has a genuine faith. Without works of faith, a persons' faith is dead (James 2:17). Paul says if any man does not consent (does not agree) to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).
 
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Tom 1

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I am seeking some additional responses to an ongoing problem at my house.

I have a dear friend that I love so much and he has always talked with me about his views being Church of Christ and we would always banter back and forth playfully as I am a grace by faith believer.
However he decided to bring over a Dr friend of his that has memorized a bunch of scripture {A bunch} and is very "book" smart and a COC minister and they started a debate over my doctrine.

He straight up told me that I was a heretic because I do not believe that works save us. [I do not]
he stated that they are biblically mandatory as Naaman had to dip 7 times in the Jordan etc.

This has turned into an all out battle of the scriptures as they have came here three times now and we have spent much time going back and forth.
I keep telling them [simply] that at the death of Jesus a new testament began and the apostle Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and he brought about the mystery of salvation by Grace through Faith, Which was what God wanted all along. Was faith.
I was taught this in school and I also believe it with all my heart.

I see Romans 6:3,4 as a 'spiritual' baptism and they see it as 'water'.
This is only the very beginning of it all as also I don't attend the "one" true "church of Christ" so I am damned lol

Can you guys give me BOTH sides here and let us rightly divide the Word as stated 2 Tim.

Again I do not want another hard debate, Just some different viewpoints to look at.
Thanks guys.

I was in the ICOC for quite a few years, that was my first contact with Christianity. I don't want to be overcritical as there are a lot of good people in that church and it isn't all bad. In retrospect though, now I know a bit more, the very literal teaching they have on baptism seems to me to be mainly just a line in the sand - a way of saying 'we're the real Christians and our teaching on baptism shows that'. The baptism study begins in Matthew 28 and from that they take all instances of conversion in the NT to involve full immersion baptism by implication, whether this is stated or implicit in the text, or not. It's not an entirely consistent position though - I doubt if many ICOC/COC members would insist that if someone's big toe was sticking out of the baptism water then they wouldn't be accepted into the kingdom (although some probably would), but in practice that is essentially what they are teaching - and if that does happen the person is dunked again. A lot is made of the word baptizo meaning 'fully immersed' as in a shipwreck, but apparently this word can have different meanings, depending on the context.
For further 'ammunition' I'd recommend Beasley-Murray's 'Baptism in the New Testament'. It was recommended to me by a friend who teaches New Testament at Manchester Uni, and it's packed with well-researched info. B-M is a very careful scholar and to say he doesn't jump to conclusions is quite an understatement. I'm only half way through it as it's quite dense but for anyone who wants a thorough understanding of baptism as it was practiced in NT times, it's a great resource.
 
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Basil the Great

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Well, I have never heard that the Church of Christ preaches salvation by works. Now, it is true that works are a part of the salvation process. Remember, faith without works is dead. It might be that they were just emphasizing that we cannot be saved by faith, unless our faith is alive and results in good works.
 
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Danielwright2311

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I am seeking some additional responses to an ongoing problem at my house.

I have a dear friend that I love so much and he has always talked with me about his views being Church of Christ and we would always banter back and forth playfully as I am a grace by faith believer.
However he decided to bring over a Dr friend of his that has memorized a bunch of scripture {A bunch} and is very "book" smart and a COC minister and they started a debate over my doctrine.

He straight up told me that I was a heretic because I do not believe that works save us. [I do not]
he stated that they are biblically mandatory as Naaman had to dip 7 times in the Jordan etc.

This has turned into an all out battle of the scriptures as they have came here three times now and we have spent much time going back and forth.
I keep telling them [simply] that at the death of Jesus a new testament began and the apostle Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and he brought about the mystery of salvation by Grace through Faith, Which was what God wanted all along. Was faith.
I was taught this in school and I also believe it with all my heart.

I see Romans 6:3,4 as a 'spiritual' baptism and they see it as 'water'.
This is only the very beginning of it all as also I don't attend the "one" true "church of Christ" so I am damned lol

Can you guys give me BOTH sides here and let us rightly divide the Word as stated 2 Tim.

Again I do not want another hard debate, Just some different viewpoints to look at.
Thanks guys.

Good works are the proof of your faith, if you do not have good works you do not have faith as there is no proof to the faith.

They work hand and hand.

My question is this

Why don't you want to teach others to have good works? what is wrong with good works?
 
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notreligus

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I am a former Church of Christ (Restoration Movement) member. They view me as backslidden, but I could still repent and come back to the Lord's true church.

To understand this bunch you have to go back to their beginnings, but it's not worth the journey. Their favorite tactic is the FUD Factor - Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. They promote a five step (five-finger) "gospel." You have to Hear-Believe-Confess-Repent-and Be Baptized in Water by Full Immersion to be saved and obedient to the gospel. They believe they "restored" salvation by immersion and that the church had stopped practicing immersion for 1500 years before they restored it. They claim to not be a denomination but they're as much of a denomination as any group could ever be. I say to tell them, "Thanks, but no thanks. The Lord's own obedience on the cross has saved me as I have put my faith in what He has done. Only Christ's shed blood was an acceptable payment which would reconcile mankind back to God."

They believe that Christ's blood is in the baptismal waters and they believe that you must be under water for the Holy Spirit to regenerate you.

The first true Christian church in America was Barton Stone's church at Cane Ridge. Barton Stone's Stoneites joined Alexander Campbell's Campbellites and formed the Disciples of Christ in 1832. After the Civil War, members, led by David Lipscomb, who thought the Disciples were too worldly, eventually split and formed the Churches of Christ. They were listed with the Federal Government as a Christian denomination in 1906.

This is the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
 
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notreligus

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Good works are the proof of your faith, if you do not have good works you do not have faith as there is no proof to the faith.

They work hand and hand.

My question is this

Why don't you want to teach others to have good works? what is wrong with good works?
We were created to do good works, but God does not accept our works as a replacement for the obedience of the Son who did the work necessary to save us and reconcile us back to God Almighty.

"Good works" can become an idol to some folk as they boast about how they are faithful to only worship on Sunday, have communion every Sunday, give an offering every Sunday, have Bible Study (not worship) on Wednesday, and not use a musical instrument during a Sunday worship service.
 
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Dave L

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What a negative way to paint the idea that salvation comes from the grace of God through faith that is alive with good works as Ephesians 2:8-10 says. It isn't self-righteous to affirm that Christians are called to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling because in so doing they know that it is God who is at work in them, enabling them both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
If salvation depends on a person meeting a condition, it is nothing more than salvation for the self-righteous. How could it not be?

The truth is, God saves us by grace through the new birth. From that point on faith and obedience follow.
 
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GingerBeer

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If salvation depends on a person meeting a condition, it is nothing more than salvation for the self-righteous. How could it not be?

The truth is, God saves us by grace through the new birth. From that point on faith and obedience follow.
You stick to your story; it isn't what scripture teaches but you sound convinced by it. I can't endorse it. But you seem keen on it.
 
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Dave L

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You stick to your story; it isn't what scripture teaches but you sound convinced by it. I can't endorse it. But you seem keen on it.
If the gospel is conditional, it becomes law, and salvation is only for the self-righteous.
 
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GingerBeer

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If the gospel is conditional, it becomes law, and salvation is only for the self-righteous.
Your reasoning is faulty so your conclusions are erroneous. Besides the good news is about Jesus Christ who said repent and believe because the kingdom of God is at hand. I have no idea what you mean by conditional. If you mean that a person has to come up to scratch before they can receive the gospel then that's just wrong. If you mean that a person has to be faithful then that is right. Matthew 25:31-46 tells that story clearly enough. Peter also mentions it "If you invoke as Father the one who judges all people impartially according to their deeds, live in reverent fear during the time of your exile."
 
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