How do pro-abortion Christians reconcile their views with pro-life scripture?

Childish response.

Mountainmanbob said:

More study may be required?
Life begins when the sperm enters the egg. Has one ever observed that tiny heart beating in the womb? Who can really say that's not alive? And their God does not recognize it and know everything about it?

M-Bob

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To me, the question of when exactly life begins isn't that simple because biology isn't simple. Think about it from the other perspective, when exactly is a person dead...is it when their heart stops beating (what about people who survive cardiac arrest)? Their brain waves cease (what about brain dead people)? Somewhere else? It's true that well, a proto-heart starts beating within about 18 days or so, but developing fetus' don't have lungs until about 15 weeks! Even then, there are still other perpetuating factors that prevent "viability", that is to say that they can exist on their own mothers. Sure, newborns are still completely dependent on others, but if the mother dies, they can be raised by other humans, but there is a certain point that before (which is about 21 weeks that there is 0 chance of survival outside of the womb.

That doesn't even really get into the spiritual side of things, when exactly does ensoulment happen. If ensoulment really does happen at conception, this would mean that most souls and most humans ever made were never actually born. Roughly 30-50% of conceptions naturally never result in pregnancy (that is the fetus' or really zygote does not attach to the uterine wall), and of those, roughly the same percentage are naturally not carried to term, the vast majority of cases before the woman even realizes that she is pregnant. It's not that Heaven would be big enough, but how exactly would that even work consider so much of who we are as human beings is determined after we are born, much less why would God create so many human beings to only never even be born.

For that and another reason I'll get into in a second personally believe that it happens at birth from the Bible describing God breathing the spirit into human brings. The Hebrew word for spirit, ruah, is the same as their word for breath, and it's the same in Greek, "pneuma". Scripture says that when God takes away the ruah, the breath, they die, but when God sends the ruah, the spirit, they are created. The Divine breath or spirit is flowing through us all, and as Christians is also dwelling inside of us. Our spirit is not separate from our body, it's so ingrained with our physical body that without it, we die. When a child is born, the first thing it has to do is breathe, and when you die, the last thing you do is breathe out one last time.

This post is already long enough so I'm not going to get into the actual ethics of abortion because it would easily make this post twice as long.

Junker P Hoodwink said:

Would you prefer Luke 1:41? Here it is: "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit."

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The Born Again Believer knows exactly what that means. Others are blinded.

Ask any solid Church pastor what they think regarding abortion?
Some won't ask because, they don't want to hear the truth.
M-Bob

SnowyMacie said:

Quite simply, I don't think any of the passages you quoted are proof or even evidence that ensoulment or life or however you want to phrase it happens at conception.

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Then when does this happen? If we are not human beings at conception what are we?

SnowyMacie said:

They're all either written about specific people or people just praising God through poetry and song.

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So only the psalmist was formed in the womb by God? What makes them special?

Instead what these Scriptures show is the Hebrew understanding of God intimately involved in our creation from the beginning. ——Imago Dei

sfs said:

Says nothing about when we should start treating the unborn as humans -- all it says is that God formed the speaker in the womb, which all Christians would agree with.

Again, says nothing about the status of the unborn. Note that it says that God knew Jeremiah before he was in the womb -- rather like Paul saying that we were chosen from before the foundation of the world. How is this supposed to tell us when a human life starts? If take literally, this would mean that I existed as a human before my conception. Where was I? In my great-great-grandparents' bodies?

Same as the first one.

Doesn't seem to be saying anything at all about the status of the unborn.

Note that I'm not a "pro-abortion Christian" -- I don't know when human life should be considered to start, and I would prefer to err on the side of caution. I just haven't seen a persuasive argument that the Bible says anything about this subject.

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The very first verse shows a Hebrew understanding of how they viewed God directly involved in their procreation from the earliest stages of life. Therefore, to damage or kill what is of God’s creation specifically Imago Dei, is murder according to Exodus 20:13

Junker P Hoodwink said:

For a true Bible-believing Christian, scripture isn't up for dispute. You can't argue with the holy Word of God. Good post!

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If life begins and ensoulment begins at conception, what about the roughly 40% of conceptions that naturally do not result in pregnancy (that is the zygote is attached to the uterine wall, and), and roughly the same percentage of pregnancies are not carried to term, most of these miscarriages occur without the mother even realizing she was pregnant? How does that work? If you think about that would mean roughly only about 36% of human beings have ever been born. It's not a question of whether or not there will be enough room.

redleghunter said:

Then when does this happen?

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I believe it happens at birth.

redleghunter said:

If we are not human beings at conception what are we?

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I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this? I mean, genetically we're homo sapiens from the start.

So only the psalmist was formed in the womb by God? What makes them special?[/QUOTE]

Everyone is made by God and we are all made in God's image, I don't think that means that ensoulment occurs or life begins at conceptions.

Junker P Hoodwink said:

A true Christian church would never support abortion. That's the same thing as supporting murder!

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I see you started another thread on the very same topic

I dont think you are in the position to tell a christian what they should NEVER do. Certainly not a woman. Its all very well for a guy to stand with his hands on his hips, shaking his first at a woman who has terminated her pregnancy because she has uterine cancer, or eclampsia that is refractory to treatment.

People like you LOVE to say NEVER.

Well I prefer to empathise with the woman who has a medical condition threatening her life and requires treatment.
Unlike you I wont be throwing a stone at the 13 year old girl pregnant from a rape and her mother has taken her along for an abortion.

Nor will I be abusing the unwed young girl who becomes pregnant in Pakistan and knows full well this is a death sentence for her; either from her family or the government.

So by all means throw stones as I have seen you do in the other thread you just started.

I would prefer to say that I dont advocate abortion as a contraceptive choice, but I fully recognise Im in no position to judge a girl who has made the choice to terminate pregnancy out of necessity to protect her own welfare.

One last thing. Abortion rates would be wayyyyyyyyy lower if men:

• Stopped raping women
• Fathers/brothers and uncles did not interfere with their daughters/siblings
• Men stepped up and took responsibility when the woman became pregnant instead of turning their back.

redleghunter said:

Then when does this happen? If we are not human beings at conception what are we?

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I think there is a strong biblical argument that ensoulment happens with the first breath taken. And I won't argue that fetuses are human, but that isn't the same thing as saying they are alive.

So only the psalmist was formed in the womb by God? What makes them special?

Instead what these Scriptures show is the Hebrew understanding of God intimately involved in our creation from the beginning. ——Imago Dei

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You can believe all people are formed in the womb by God without believing that life happens at conception.

Mountainmanbob said:

And the ones that call abortion anything other than murder are only deceiving themselves. Self-deception is something to watch out for. True abortion is all about self. Self-centered man and self-centered woman. Giving no thought to God or his concerns for man.

He made them and said they are good.

Who are we to destroy what God says is good?

M-Bob

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Bob for a little while I was going to a group counselling thing for young girls... I was 13 (I wont go into reasons why).

One of the girls had the worst story - think of an awful story for a young teen and then multiply it by ten...

Of the many things she told about her life, was raped by an uncle and grandfather. Of course she became pregnant. Her parents who were druggies knew the whole deal. She terminated the pregnancy.

You want to send her to hell
You want to call her a murderer
Well no need to wish death on her because she committed suicide anyway. But I can't abide the blanket statements that all these girls are hated murderers.

Well Bob - I dont hate her so you can call me a mental accomplice if you like.

I know you well enough Bob to know you are a person that isnt a blind-Hater. I'd just ask you to soften the rhetoric a little on this please. Things are not always black and white

Junker P Hoodwink said:

Should a 2-year-old be killed because his father was a rapist? Likewise, abortion because of rape is still murder.

Chill out.

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Whats with the bizarre comment - I was talking about YOUR topic which was abortion....Now your changing it to infanticide...which absolutely no-one here has been talking about and is wayyyyyyy off your own topic .

SnowyMacie said:

If life begins and ensoulment begins at conception, what about the roughly 40% of conceptions that naturally do not result in pregnancy (that is the zygote is attached to the uterine wall, and), and roughly the same percentage of pregnancies are not carried to term, most of these miscarriages occur without the mother even realizing she was pregnant? How does that work? If you think about that would mean roughly only about 36% of human beings have ever been born. It's not a question of whether or not there will be enough room.

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This is not an argument but a rationalization. The answer though is so what? We live in a fallen world. Children die at child birth. Are you going to say they are soulless too?

The bottom line you can’t prove when it happens. Therefore the Christian response is do no harm.

You would also have to explain from Scriptures of a situation where there is life without a soul.

SnowyMacie said:

I believe it happens at birth.

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Why?

Two minutes before entering the birth canal something miraculous happens?

SnowyMacie said:

Everyone is made by God and we are all made in God's image, I don't think that means that ensoulment occurs or life begins at conceptions.

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What part of us is made in God’s image and likeness as Jesus told the woman at the well God is Spirit.

Arcangl86 said:

I think there is a strong biblical argument that ensoulment happens with the first breath taken. And I won't argue that fetuses are human, but that isn't the same thing as saying they are alive.

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That’s a strong argument for Adam. He was already formed when he received the breath of life. That’s not the same as taking in oxygen by breathing. If breathing was ensoulment then we would cease to exist after we die.

Arcangl86 said:

You can believe all people are formed in the womb by God without believing that life happens at conception.

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Human life does begin at conception. That is a biological fact.

redleghunter said:

Human life does begin at conception. That is a biological fact.

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I tend to think it starts at conception as well - at least the biochemical program commences at that point with a heart beat and neural functional occurring weeks later.

But as to when life starts: Is that the point of the discussion. Its simply about the ethics of terminating a pregnancy.

Its NOT black and White IMO.
I know that one side of the debate says...No Never - OK so too bad if you are raped - Have the child - I dont care if you just 13

Nor do I care that you have a uterine tear and are at high risk of haemorrhage if you continue with the pregnancy

Nor do I care if you have cancer so must terminate the pregnancy by virtue of removing your uterus

I dont care if you live in Saudi Arabia and will (along with the male partner) be beheaded and the foetus will die anyway.

You see theres many cohorts that I think deserve better from christians in stead of the harsh comments thrown at them.

And lastly - Some girls will have an abortion simply as a choice - she doesnt want a kid. I may not approve of such a choice, But I recognise that throwing hateful words her way will serve no purpose. It certainly wont bring her closer to the christian community. I have to accept that the girl is acting lawfully and give her my friendship and whatever wisdom I have.

SnowyMacie said:

I believe it happens at birth.

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This seems extremely arbitrary. Dangerously so, even. I would challenge the entire concept of ensoulment, unless phrased very carefully, since it doesn't seem reasonable given everything we know about biology to think that there's one moment at which you magically become a person. You could possibly conceive of it as a process, but there's really no reason why birth would automatically change that status.

(I'm actually pro-choice, but I don't think a cut-off after viability is defensible. Induced labor, sure, but the alternative doesn't seem any different than infanticide.)

Zoii said:

I tend to think it starts at conception as well - at least the biochemical program commences at that point with a heart beat and neural functional occurring weeks later.

But as to when life starts: Is that the point of the discussion. Its simply about the ethics of terminating a pregnancy.

Its NOT black and White IMO.
I know that one side of the debate says...No Never - OK so too bad if you are raped - Have the child - I dont care if you just 13

Nor do I care that you have a uterine tear and are at high risk of haemorrhage if you continue with the pregnancy

Nor do I care if you have cancer so must terminate the pregnancy by virtue of removing your uterus

I dont care if you live in Saudi Arabia and will (along with the male partner) be beheaded and the foetus will die anyway.

You see theres many cohorts that I think deserve better from christians in stead of the harsh comments thrown at them.

And lastly - Some girls will have an abortion simply as a choice - she doesnt want a kid. I may not approve of such a choice, But I recognise that throwing hateful words her way will serve no purpose. It certainly wont bring her closer to the christian community. I have to accept that the girl is acting lawfully and give her my friendship and whatever wisdom I have.

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Human life begins at conception. Again that is biological fact.

Perhaps you are addressing the philosophical personhood debate.

redleghunter said:

That’s a strong argument for Adam. He was already formed when he received the breath of life. That’s not the same as taking in oxygen by breathing. If breathing was ensoulment then we would cease to exist after we die.

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There is also the valley of dry bones. And I didn't say that the soul was created by breathing, but that's the moment when the soul enters the body.

Human life does begin at conception. That is a biological fact.

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When something can be said to be alive is more of a philosophical question then a scientific one.

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Silmarien said:

This seems extremely arbitrary. Dangerously so, even. I would challenge the entire concept of ensoulment, unless phrased very carefully, since it doesn't seem reasonable given everything we know about biology to think that there's one moment at which you magically become a person. You could possibly conceive of it as a process, but there's really no reason why birth would automatically change that status.

(I'm actually pro-choice, but I don't think a cut-off after viability is defensible. Induced labor, sure, but the alternative doesn't seem any different than infanticide.)

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I agree ensoulment is a poor way to define the argument. Why because we don’t know and as such we as Christians should be the Good Samaritan and have mercy on the helpless. Do no harm.

Although speaking of the Scriptures there is no instance where there is life without a soul. We should take that into consideration.

Arcangl86 said:

There is also the valley of dry bones. And I didn't say that the soul was created by breathing, but that's the moment when the soul enters the body.

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Why?