What is our obligation to the poor?

Petros2015 said:

Well, until they run into the first fine or sudden car trouble that they can't pay for because they are running on the edge. Friend of mine who is barely scraping by in Florida with MD license bought cheap car from dealership. Dealer failed to mention that it was illegal to drive with Florida tags and MD license (even though she got tagged, insured and drove off the lot). Got pulled over yesterday, cop told her she could have been thrown in jail. Let her off by taking tags. New tags are $225 in Florida. Florida license, $50. If you are poor, you can not handle sudden expenses like that which most of us who are not shrug or swat off. Maybe you gamble that your landlord will understand and not throw you out if you don't pay rent that month to cover it. Often they lose the gamble. If she was taken to jail, could she have paid the $200 bail to get out? Shoes and food help, but being poor is living in a constant state of crisis, its really a behind the 8-ball scenario from what I've seen.

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Not to mention the cost of health care in the US - the only western country where breaking your leg can result in your bankrupcy.

DogmaHunter said:

Not to mention the cost of health care in the US - the only western country where breaking your leg can result in your bankrupcy.

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That health thing is a result of one of the golden rules of capitalism. "Never allow someone else's misfortune stand in the way of extracting the maximum amount of capital from them".

When one lives by capitalism, one also dies by capitalism.

And lest anyone think I'm anti-capitalism, I'm not. I just happen to think there is more to life than the unbridled belief that capitalism is the only thing that exists. When capitalism no longer serves the needs of the masses, it is time to rein it in.

Um, I've seen no study that suggests we've met all the material needs of the poor in the US. Honestly, it is quite the opposite. Personally, as a non Christian I support a reform of many government programs and increased spending on social programs. I am obligated to do what I can when someone is in need.

zephcom said:

That health thing is a result of one of the golden rules of capitalism. "Never allow someone else's misfortune stand in the way of extracting the maximum amount of capital from them".

When one lives by capitalism, one also dies by capitalism.

And lest anyone think I'm anti-capitalism, I'm not. I just happen to think there is more to life than the unbridled belief that capitalism is the only thing that exists. When capitalism no longer serves the needs of the masses, it is time to rein it in.

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I'm some kind of middle ground guy.
I have nothing per say against capitalism. In the sense of: you are free to build out a business and make loads of money. At the same time.... I do ask myself sometimes that infamous question "what can you do with 100 billion that you can't do with 10 billion?". When I hear about the insane wealth of people like Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Jeff Bozos etc.... It's a bit sickening. They could stop working for like.... what... 15 generations, and still be filthy rich?

Nobody needs such amounts of money. While in a way it's against my principles.... at the same time I figure that something like a "max wealth" might not be a bad idea. And anything you earn above that, automatically reverts to taxes, where it will be used to build / improve schools, hospitals, eduation centers, research centers, spearheading space exploration etc.

I think the other end, communism, is a show stopper in terms of progress and innovation.
I think I would describe myself as a "liberal socialist" or something (before anyone flips - these words probably mean something different in the political landscape of old europe then it does in the US, which I'm still not sure about... but I've been called a "socialist" by americans as if it was some kind of insult, which was weird....)

Basically, it means that anyone has the freedom to make as much money as he can, while at the same time having strong governmental programs that allow for very strong universal health care, social security safety nets, welfare programs, social housing, etc.

Society benefits from having a healthy and happy workforce.
Even with all the problems we have, I love living in Europe. The US? Honestly.... I wouldn't for the life of me want to live there. At all. It sounds absolutely horrible.

DogmaHunter said:

I'm some kind of middle ground guy.
I have nothing per say against capitalism. In the sense of: you are free to build out a business and make loads of money. At the same time.... I do ask myself sometimes that infamous question "what can you do with 100 billion that you can't do with 10 billion?". When I hear about the insane wealth of people like Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Jeff Bozos etc.... It's a bit sickening. They could stop working for like.... what... 15 generations, and still be filthy rich?

Nobody needs such amounts of money. While in a way it's against my principles.... at the same time I figure that something like a "max wealth" might not be a bad idea. And anything you earn above that, automatically reverts to taxes, where it will be used to build / improve schools, hospitals, eduation centers, research centers, spearheading space exploration etc.

I think the other end, communism, is a show stopper in terms of progress and innovation.
I think I would describe myself as a "liberal socialist" or something (before anyone flips - these words probably mean something different in the political landscape of old europe then it does in the US, which I'm still not sure about... but I've been called a "socialist" by americans as if it was some kind of insult, which was weird....)

Basically, it means that anyone has the freedom to make as much money as he can, while at the same time having strong governmental programs that allow for very strong universal health care, social security safety nets, welfare programs, social housing, etc.

Society benefits from having a healthy and happy workforce.
Even with all the problems we have, I love living in Europe. The US? Honestly.... I wouldn't for the life of me want to live there. At all. It sounds absolutely horrible.

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I'm a halfway person too. I see private enterprise and government much differently than many people. I think it is the government's job to create the environment in which capitalism can thrive.

By that, I mean that government should concern itself with things like national defense (not national aggression), infrastructure, safety of citizens, education, environment, medical care etc and leave the generation of capital to private enterprise.

I agree with you that some people can possess excessive wealth. I understand that six individuals now possess or control more money than half of the planet's population collectively possess. I think it is impossible to defend that and still maintain one's humanity.

OldWiseGuy said:

We've met all the material needs of the poor in America through government programs and private efforts. What more are we obligated to provide?

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Contrary to some opinions on this thread, food stamps are definitely not enough to support a person or family in poverty, and that is why I give monthly to a "Poverty in America" fund through World Vision. People in this country are often caught in a generational cycle of poverty unfortunately. In my opinion the terrible education system in low income areas are to blame as they set students up to fail. If the rate of funding for public schools was not reliant on the amount of district property taxes and local revenue, inner city schools - and students - would be in a much better place to succeed in life.

DogmaHunter said:

Then why are there so many homeless people?

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A lot of untreated mental illness is part of it. Also sometimes people are afraid to stay in shelters. Also people with criminal records have a hard time getting a break.

zephcom said:

I'm a halfway person too. I see private enterprise and government much differently than many people. I think it is the government's job to create the environment in which capitalism can thrive.

By that, I mean that government should concern itself with things like national defense (not national aggression), infrastructure, safety of citizens, education, environment, medical care etc and leave the generation of capital to private enterprise.

I agree with you that some people can possess excessive wealth. I understand that six individuals now possess or control more money than half of the planet's population collectively possess. I think it is impossible to defend that and still maintain one's humanity.

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Exactly.

I like the way you phrased it: government's job is to create the environment in which capitalism can thrive.

I'll go a step further then doing that just through education, health care etc.
I'ld say that it's also the government's job to finance research at the "frontier" of scientific discovery, particularly in space exploration etc. Budgets of organizations like NASA should be through the roof, imo. They need to pave the way so that private corporations can then follow in those footsteps to do whatever it is they do. Because the ROI of those first steps into the unknown, is something that the vast majority of companies simply can not defend or afford.

There wouldn't be a SpaceX, if it wasn't for organizations like NASA taking those first steps, for example.

EzekielsWheels said:

A lot of untreated mental illness is part of it. Also sometimes people are afraid to stay in shelters. Also people with criminal records have a hard time getting a break.

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So the millions of homeless people in the US are all criminals or schizofrenics?

Who do you expect to believe that?
Do you even believe it yourself?

Aryeh Jay said:

Of course it would help if people had jobs or jobs that paid enough for THEM not to also be collecting benefits…

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You're also talking to someone who last time I heard relied on government benefits. They could easily test their theory by refusing those benefits and see if private charities step in.

DogmaHunter said:

(why are there so many homeless)
So the millions of homeless people in the US are all criminals or schizofrenics?
Who do you expect to believe that?
Do you even believe it yourself?

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Well, there are a lot of ways to get there and not many ways to get out.

To get out of homelessness, you need a home.

Homes aren't often easily affordable.

So to get a home you need a good job.

Most places even to rent, you need to put a security deposit down and often 1 month in advance. Leases are for a year and if something comes up, you lose your job and you have to break the lease, you may be on the hook for the remainder of the year.

Oh well, there goes that credit score. Don't worry, those aren't important...

To get a good job you probably need a good education, reasonable physical and mental health. If you started off in a stable, upper-middle class family, you have a reasonable shot at having that, but the worse your family situation (and biological luck of the draw) was to begin with, the worse your chances are to begin with.

If you have had a criminal conviction in the past, most good jobs will screen for that and filter you out. Depending on what your family situation is growing up, your chances of having one of those early on can be higher or lower.

Various laws have both directly and indirectly criminalized people that are homeless, so
if you didn't have a criminal record before becoming homeless, you may get one shortly thereafter. That'll help.

Anti-homelessness legislation - Wikipedia

Oh, and you need a car, registration and car insurance to get to the job, usually, but some people manage on bicycles and public transportation.

Lots of alcoholics (many of whom do not realize or admit they have a problem yet - delusionally strong denial is a hallmark of problems with alcohol) can very quickly become homeless. Once the license is gone, the car and the job goes poof.

Any kind of addiction other than cigarettes can take you out and land you with a felony pretty easy.

I'm not sure how hard it is to get a license when you have no home address, but I imagine it's probably pretty hard.

I'm not sure how hard it is to get a job when you have no cell phone, email or computer. Most people would use the public library I imagine. A cell phone is probably Step #1.

Cars and houses usually require having bank accounts and credit checks. Most good jobs do also. My housemate when we tried to get him a car after his truck died, we discovered he had a credit rating of... drumroll please... negative 1. LOL. He had never opened any credit cards and a former landlord had reported something against him at some point. (incidentally, when I loaned him some money for the car myself, he became one of the few people who has ever paid me back. He is doing very well now).

Mortgage companies, if you miss mortgage payments for a few months due to unemployment will cut you a grace period during which you don't have to pay. In some cases though, at the end of that period, they will ask for all of the money back that was owed during that period AT ONCE. This happened to a friend of mine who was a co-worker making six figures at one point after she was laid off.

Bye bye house. She is living with her brother now, still trying to get back on her feet.

I would probably be homeless if I had bought my house through a mortgage company, but I had purchased the family home though family. There was a period of a year where I had a breakdown that required some hospitalization and medication (mind you this was AFTER I had been sober for a year). Although I was making 6 figures at the time, I was what society calls a 'functional alcoholic'. I make 5 now, but that's ok.

It's only OK though, because of my home and family situation, which was effectively 'safe' due to extremely low mortgage payments to family. My family put me through college and I started my life with no student debt

Anyway, so why are there so many homeless? The system I am describing above is tough and unforgiving to begin with. Everybody falls on problems at some point, or could fall on a serious problem at any point. The stronger you are at the start, due to the family you start with, the better your chances are. The weaker the start though, the worse. And who are you going to fall back on if the family you started with was weak, toxic or nonexistent to begin with?

Here's the 2017 Homelessness Assessment Report

https://www.hudexchange.info/resources/documents/2017-AHAR-Part-1.pdf

Looks like

On a single night in 2017, 553,742 people were experiencing homelessness in the United States. For every 10,000 people in the country, 17 were experiencing homelessness. Approximately twothirds (65%) were staying in emergency shelters or transitional housing programs, and about onethird (35%) were in unsheltered locations.

Just under 87,000 individuals experiencing homelessness on a particular night in January 2017 had chronic patterns of homelessness.

I'm actually surprised it's that low (though homelessness is about the lowest bar of poverty you can get to, and I imagine by it's nature, is difficult to count).

More winning!! TRUMP! TRUMP! TRUMP!

TEN YEAR HIGH!!!!
Take that Obama!

Petros2015 said:

Well, there are a lot of ways to get there and not many ways to get out.

To get out of homelessness, you need a home.

Homes aren't often easily affordable.

So to get a home you need a good job.

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Or a governmental program called "social housing".....
The point.

When do you think it will be easier to get, and hold on to, a job?
When you have no home, and thus no address, and stink the place up?
Or when you have a temporary social roof over your head, even if it is just a 15m² flat with a kitchen-slash-bathroom?

To get a good job you probably need a good education

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1. no you don't. Anybody can wash windows, clean desks, flip burgers, collect thrash cans, cut grass, put stuff in boxes, deliver packages, pick up packages, sort packages, screw things in other things, ..................

2. a small step up of the type of jobs above, like inputting forms in a digital form using some type of software, and the company can provide you with necessary training

3. free education

reasonable physical and mental health.

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I'll guarantee you that your physical and mental health will be in much better condition if you get to sleep under a roof in an actual bed and are able to take a shower and brush your teeth now and then.

Next to that: government-run universal health care

If you started off in a stable, upper-middle class family, you have a reasonable shot at having that, but the worse your family situation was to begin with, the worse your chances are to begin with.

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Yep, it's a viscious cricle.
A few efficient social governmental programs is all you need to break that circle.
Will it have a 100% success rate? Probably not. But it surely will go a LONG way.

If you have had a criminal conviction in the past, most good jobs will screen for that and filter you out. Depending on what your family situation is growing up, your chances of having one of those early on can be higher or lower.

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As part of the viscious circle, off course

Various laws have both directly and indirectly criminalized people that are homeless, so
if you didn't have a criminal record before becoming homeless, you may get one shortly thereafter. That'll help.

Anti-homelessness legislation - Wikipedia

Oh, and you need a car, registration and car insurance to get to the job, usually, but some people manage on bicycles and public transportation.

Lots of alcoholics (many of whom do not realize or admit they have a problem yet - delusionally strong denial is a hallmark of problems with alcohol) can very quickly become homeless. Once the license is gone, the car and the job goes poof.

Any kind of addiction other than cigarettes can take you out and land you with a felony pretty easy.

I'm not sure how hard it is to get a license when you have no home address, but I imagine it's probably pretty hard.

I'm not sure how hard it is to get a job when you have no cell phone, email or computer. Most people would use the public library I imagine. A cell phone is probably Step #1.

Cars and houses usually require having bank accounts and credit checks. Most good jobs do also. My housemate when we tried to get him a car after his truck died, we discovered he had a credit rating of... drumroll please... negative 1. LOL. He had never opened any credit cards and a former landlord had reported something against him at some point. (incidentally, when I loaned him some money for the car myself, he became one of the few people who has ever paid me back. He is doing very well now).

Mortgage companies, if you miss mortgage payments for a few months due to unemployment will cut you a grace period during which you don't have to pay. In some cases though, at the end of that period, they will ask for all of the money back that was owed during that period AT ONCE. This happened to a friend of mine who was a co-worker making six figures at one point after she was laid off.

Bye bye house. She is living with her brother now, still trying to get back on her feet.

I would probably be homeless if I had bought my house through a mortgage company, but I had purchased the family home though family. There was a period of a year where I had a breakdown that required some hospitalization and medication (mind you this was AFTER I had been sober for a year). Although I was making 6 figures at the time, I was what society calls a 'functional alcoholic'. I make 5 now, but that's ok.

It's only OK though, because of my home and family situation, which was effectively 'safe' due to extremely low mortgage payments to family. My family put me through college and I started my life with no student debt

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All this reads like problems that are almost exclusive to the "corporate" US. All these are problems of ultra-capitalistic, anti-social society where the general idea is to extract the maximum amount of capital from people - even when there is no capital left to extract.

It's the result of a complete lack of regulation to "humanize" society and to allow for-profit-privatisation of what are really matters of societal importance.

The problems you describe are unavoidable in a country that is as entrenched in greed and money hunger like the ultra-capitalistic corporate US.

This is exactly why I wouldn't want to live in the US and am thankfull every day for being a European citizen - regardless of the many problems we have in Europe.

Many of these issues you describe are actually very avoidable for a large, large amount of "victims" (which is what I call them).

But for some reason, the self-described "most christian" nation of the west, is actually very anti helping fellow citizens to get back - and stay - on their feet.

Anyway, so why are there so many homeless? The system I am describing above is tough and unforgiving to begin with. Everybody falls on problems at some point, or could fall on a serious problem at any point. The stronger you are at the start, due to the family you start with, the better your chances are. The weaker the start though, the worse. And who are you going to fall back on if the family you started with was weak, toxic or nonexistent to begin with?

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In the US... most certainly not the government. There are no safety nets. There are no (proper) social programs. There's only greed and profit and the extraction of capital, even where there is no capital.

If you can't pay up, you are spit out and left to die in the gutter.

Internal policies of the US are the most anti-social in the entire democratic west.

Halbhh said:

My thoughts are that usually in the U.S., most of the time, most of the poor are in ok situations because of local food banks and free public education in schools -- they are not hungry nor without shoes.

Usually.

In part because Christians churches (among other groups) continue to help by continuing to participate in local food pantries and doing coat drives and such.

Even the perennial issue of fair equal standing under the law is often (not always!) met here in the U.S. -- sometimes it infamously is not met, but more often I think it is.

In the Old Testament this was spelled out more fully like this:
Isaiah 1:17 Learn to do right, seek justice, correct the oppressor, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow."

In the New Testament, we are directly commanded by Christ Jesus this way:
Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

And this is not an optional extra good, something to do for extra treasures in heaven such as giving all one's wealth to the poor, but instead this is a basic requirement of Christians because they have faith in Christ.

Why do I say "requirement" instead of just some less sharp thing like 'good thing to do'?

Why?

Because Jesus directly warns us that without doing as He said to do, our house will collapse and be destroyed --

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”


Here we learn we cannot make it unless we put His commands to us into action in our lives. If we don't, eventually a storm of life will come and destroy our standing.

So, we continue to put Matthew 7:12 into practice, if we believe in Him, or because we believe in Him. Faith leads to salvation, and faith leads to actions. ("Faith without works is dead." as famously in James, for clarity.)

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And also, God specified negligence of the poor as the reason for the Babylonian Captivity.

OldWiseGuy said:

Who gives a banquet?

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People of wealth.