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I'm only saying, a large group with similarities to those who prophecy today will not be acceptable to Christ on the last day.
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How do we hear God's voice?
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What is the meaning of "face to face" in 1 Corinthians 13? Well, I believe we will see our image conform or change to the image of Christ in light of the "Bible / Glass / Mirror" by our obedience to Jesus's commands (Note: See the pictures below within this post). As we obey His Word, we conform more to the likeness of Christ and when we look in the mirror of God's Word (the Bible), we see the image of Christ in the reflection and not our old reflection by the fact that we are conforming to that "perfect Word" that He has given us. So yes. We do see Christ in the mirror "face to face" but it is only by our conforming to Christ by our obedience to Him. The focus of 1 Corinthians 13 is love. Loving as Christ loved. As a whole: 1 Corinthians 12, 1 Corinthians 13, 1 Corinthians 14 are dealing with gifts. Although these gifts were necessary at one time (to confirm the Word of the New Covenant and the early church), these gifts have ceased, and they are no longer needed (Because that which is "perfect" has come, i.e. the Bible) whereby we can be "perfect" or be a "mature man" by obeying God's Word by faith (and not by sight). For 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says that all Scripture is profitable for doctrine so that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work.
"And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord..." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (AMPC).
"As all of us reflect the glory of the Lord with unveiled faces, we are becoming more like him with ever-increasing glory by the Lord’s Spirit." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (ISV).
"The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (John 6:40).
2 "Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure."
(1 John 3:2-3).
To all:
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Romans 12:2).
16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
Gifts are something people can see. But the Word of God (the Bible) is a faith thing.
Jesus said,
"...blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29).
This would be us today with the Bible.
We don't need spiritual gifts to see in order to believe.
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1).
Side Note:
The second image (above) that has a picture of Christ is not what Jesus obviously looks like. I only posted this image for illustrative purposes only. Jesus is not white or European and He more than likely did not have long hair, either.
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"Let all things be done unto edifying." (1 Corinthians 14:26).
"God is not the author of confusion" (1 Corinthians 14:33).
In 1 Corinthians 14:3, Paul says that prophesying edifies because it comforts and exhorts men, (no doubt because it is referring to things the hearer can understand). In 1 Corinthians 14:4, Paul states that speaking in tongues does not edify unless it is interpreted.
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God bless Jason. I see things differently than you here I'll show ome of my reasons
also we read of Christ second coming and all the gifts and prophecy continuing till then and the believers are exhorted to do so,
"2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober....19 Quench not the Spirit.20 Despise not prophesyings.21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it."(1 Thess 5:2
Notice that the letter applied to them and Paul and to all who would be among believers until the coming of the Lord. And despise not prophesyings. It seems some today despise prophesyings contrary to Paul's word here for all believers till the second coming.
"10 But when [in the future] that which is perfect is come, then [in the future] that which is in part shall be done away. ...For now [in the present] we see through a glass, darkly; but then [in the future] face to face: now [present tense for Paul also] I know in part; but then shall [future tense for Paul] I know [this all applies to Paul as well and he did not see the completion of the cannon compilled in the 15 and 16 hundreds] even as also I [again future applied to Paul] am known."(1 Cor 13:10-12 KJV)
Notice the tenses and present and future applications and all applied to Paul as well as others.
It is obvious that that that which is perfect had not come yet and Paul said he still spoke in part and knows in part. This perfect cannot therefore be the scriptures to come in the 15 or 16 hundreds to be compiled as a complete cannon. Or else Paul could not say then he would know even as he was known. Because we know that Paul died and went to the Lord way before the New Testament scriptures were compiled and put together as a book.
So when this happens cannot refer to the future when the scriptures are completed. But when we are resurrected from the dead and are perfect as Paul also infers in Philippians
"11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended:"(Philippians 3:11-13 KJV)
Believers can mature here and now but in some sense until we are taken home we are children
1 John 2:28
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."
"16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God...
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God...
waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."
"Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;"(Ephesians 5:1 KJV)
Galatians 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."
But this can't be reference to the perfect law of liberty, beacause they already had the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus"(Romans 8) making them free from the law of sin and death.
The law of liberty, does not refer to keeping the old Testament law, otherwise they already had that and it would not be referred to as "when that which is perfect s come". I see the law of liberty (freedom) the same as the "law of the Spirit of life in VChrist Jesus making them free from the law of sin and death. They through the law were dead unto the law. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. Yes the law is perfect converting the soul. But this is through faith which is in Christ Jesus as Paul told Timothy.
And all scripture is profitable to make them perfect unto every good work. But they already had this. They had scripture already which can furnish them unto all good works. So Paul is talking about something else when he says "when that which is perfect is come".
They were not somehow weak and incomplete and in ignorance of God and the things they needed for life and godliness. They were also given by God power to have all things that pertain to life and godliness. This was by God working in them, and Paul even told Timothy that the scriptures (speaking in that context of the Old Testament scriptures that they had) were able to make one wise through faith into salvation through faith and to give all things that pertain to life and godliness. So Paul already showed the gospel which was according to the scriptures. But for some to imply that the churches of those days did not have all they needed and had only "part" is not accurate. Yes they may not have had the writings of Paul, Peter, John, Jude Matthew, Luke, Mark, but they did have many of these men in person speaking to them as well.
2 Peter 1:3
"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:"
Paul wanted to present every man perfect even in those days as well, and if he didn't have the scriptures as we do how could he do that?
"17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen."(Ephesians 3:17-21 KJV)
They also had Jesus Christ in them and they could do all things through Christ and Jesus himself said without him we can do nothing.
Part A...continued...
The first thing we notice in scripture, is that there is nowhere it read, they "HAVE CEASED". Not one verse. So any implication is based upon interpretation of other verses and our understanding. Or in some cases many have been biased by a teachers view.
also we read of Christ second coming and all the gifts and prophecy continuing till then and the believers are exhorted to do so,
"2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober....19 Quench not the Spirit.20 Despise not prophesyings.21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it."(1 Thess 5:2
Notice that the letter applied to them and Paul and to all who would be among believers until the coming of the Lord. And despise not prophesyings. It seems some today despise prophesyings contrary to Paul's word here for all believers till the second coming.
Paul said,
"10 But when [in the future] that which is perfect is come, then [in the future] that which is in part shall be done away. ...For now [in the present] we see through a glass, darkly; but then [in the future] face to face: now [present tense for Paul also] I know in part; but then shall [future tense for Paul] I know [this all applies to Paul as well and he did not see the completion of the cannon compilled in the 15 and 16 hundreds] even as also I [again future applied to Paul] am known."(1 Cor 13:10-12 KJV)
Notice the tenses and present and future applications and all applied to Paul as well as others.
It is obvious that that that which is perfect had not come yet and Paul said he still spoke in part and knows in part. This perfect cannot therefore be the scriptures to come in the 15 or 16 hundreds to be compiled as a complete cannon. Or else Paul could not say then he would know even as he was known. Because we know that Paul died and went to the Lord way before the New Testament scriptures were compiled and put together as a book.
So when this happens cannot refer to the future when the scriptures are completed. But when we are resurrected from the dead and are perfect as Paul also infers in Philippians
"11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended:"(Philippians 3:11-13 KJV)
Believers can mature here and now but in some sense until we are taken home we are children
1 John 2:28
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."
"16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God...
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God...
waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."
"Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;"(Ephesians 5:1 KJV)
Galatians 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."
But this can't be reference to the perfect law of liberty, beacause they already had the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus"(Romans 8) making them free from the law of sin and death.
The law of liberty, does not refer to keeping the old Testament law, otherwise they already had that and it would not be referred to as "when that which is perfect s come". I see the law of liberty (freedom) the same as the "law of the Spirit of life in VChrist Jesus making them free from the law of sin and death. They through the law were dead unto the law. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. Yes the law is perfect converting the soul. But this is through faith which is in Christ Jesus as Paul told Timothy.
And all scripture is profitable to make them perfect unto every good work. But they already had this. They had scripture already which can furnish them unto all good works. So Paul is talking about something else when he says "when that which is perfect is come".
They were not somehow weak and incomplete and in ignorance of God and the things they needed for life and godliness. They were also given by God power to have all things that pertain to life and godliness. This was by God working in them, and Paul even told Timothy that the scriptures (speaking in that context of the Old Testament scriptures that they had) were able to make one wise through faith into salvation through faith and to give all things that pertain to life and godliness. So Paul already showed the gospel which was according to the scriptures. But for some to imply that the churches of those days did not have all they needed and had only "part" is not accurate. Yes they may not have had the writings of Paul, Peter, John, Jude Matthew, Luke, Mark, but they did have many of these men in person speaking to them as well.
2 Peter 1:3
"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:"
Paul wanted to present every man perfect even in those days as well, and if he didn't have the scriptures as we do how could he do that?
"17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen."(Ephesians 3:17-21 KJV)
They also had Jesus Christ in them and they could do all things through Christ and Jesus himself said without him we can do nothing.
Part A...continued...
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I hope to address this later of to a christian gathering. I am familiar for many years with what you looking into the mirror and scriptures etc.But there are some differences and scripture shows it also.What is the meaning of "face to face" in 1 Corinthians 13? Well, I believe we will see our image conform or change to the image of Christ in light of the "Bible / Glass / Mirror" by our obedience to Jesus's commands (Note: See the pictures below within this post). As we obey His Word, we conform more to the likeness of Christ and when we look in the mirror of God's Word (the Bible), we see the image of Christ in the reflection and not our old reflection by the fact that we are conforming to that "perfect Word" that He has given us. So yes. We do see Christ in the mirror "face to face" but it is only by our conforming to Christ by our obedience to Him. The focus of 1 Corinthians 13 is love. Loving as Christ loved. As a whole: 1 Corinthians 12, 1 Corinthians 13, 1 Corinthians 14 are dealing with gifts. Although these gifts were necessary at one time (to confirm the Word of the New Covenant and the early church), these gifts have ceased, and they are no longer needed (Because that which is "perfect" has come, i.e. the Bible) whereby we can be "perfect" or be a "mature man" by obeying God's Word by faith (and not by sight). For 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says that all Scripture is profitable for doctrine so that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work.
"And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord..." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (AMPC).
"As all of us reflect the glory of the Lord with unveiled faces, we are becoming more like him with ever-increasing glory by the Lord’s Spirit." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (ISV).
"The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (John 6:40).
2 "Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure."
(1 John 3:2-3).
To all:
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Romans 12:2).
16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
Gifts are something people can see. But the Word of God (the Bible) is a faith thing.
Jesus said,
"...blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29).
This would be us today with the Bible.
We don't need spiritual gifts to see in order to believe.
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1).
Side Note:
The second image (above) that has a picture of Christ is not what Jesus obviously looks like. I only posted this image for illustrative purposes only. Jesus is not white or European and He more than likely did not have long hair, either.
just a quick section to consider,
"13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."
What is it to behold the glory of the Lord. Or with open face to behold...This is with the eyes of faith we look on the things that are not seen the invisible things, with the eyes and ears of faith.
2 Corinthians 4:18
"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."
"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."(2 Cor 4:4-6 KJV)
They had the Old Testament scriptures.So that which is perfect cannot be referring to having the scripture in the future. It must refer to something else, and I see it as the resurrected body we shall have that is perfect as Paul implies in other verses, then we shall see face to face and the in part we see now will be fully seen. We will see Jesus and now him and the mysteries and things of God clearly.
But when some were reading the Old Testament the veil was on their heart. If they came to the Lord the veil would be taken away. this is done by the Spirit and the inward life where Christ is formed within the heart. Now they can see clearer and walk in the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which makes them free from the law of sin and death.
"2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."(Romans 8:2-5 KJV)
1 Peter 3:12
"For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil."
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No they haven't if you continue to read what i will post.
I am not justifying all that claims to be the gift of tongues today for some may not have the true gift. But I can tell many things from experience and what I have seen and heard and from what scripture says. Just know that there is no verse that says they "HAVE ceased".
also consider
also we read of Christ second coming and all the gifts and prophecy continuing till then and the believers are exhorted to do so,
"2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober....19 Quench not the Spirit.20 Despise not prophesyings.21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it."(1 Thess 5:2
Notice that the letter applied to them and Paul and to all who would be among believers until the coming of the Lord. And despise not prophesyings. It seems some today despise prophesyings contrary to Paul's word here for all believers till the second coming.
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- Jun 28, 2018
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But you ignore portions that refute your ideas. You need the whole picture.
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IN CHURCH. But speaking in tongues in prayer edifies that person's spirit. You are confusing the two, and the rules for one don't affect the other.
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No I try to answer many. It takes time. Did you actually read carefully what I just posted?
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Francis Drake
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Matt7v21Not everyone saying to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of My Father in the heavens.
Its very hard to do the will of the Father, when you refuse point black to listen to his voice, and condemn others who do listen.
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You have made a number of fundamental errors in your examination of this text....
Firstly you are still repeatedly making the unwarranted assumption that it is Jesus whom we see 'face to face' when his name does not appear in this scripture. You are eisegetically adding it.
Second, the Greek word teleios (which some bibles translate 'the perfect', others 'completeness') is an adjective without an associated noun. It is also in the neuter gender. That rules it out from being a perfect "man" (teleios is masculine in Eph 4). It also rules it out from referring to Christ. Whatever the adjective is describing it cannot be a simple noun (such as the coming of Christ, the 'eschaton', or our glorified bodies), otherwise Paul would have used that particular noun. It must be a concept that cannot easily be expressed as a single word. Something like 'the completion and distribution of the completed canon'.
Third, "know in part" in v12 is the same "know in part" in v9. To know (ginóskó, 1097) is the verb equivalent of the noun knowledge (gnōseōs, 1108) as in the spiritual gift of knowledge (1 Cor 12:8):
Strong's Greek: 1108. γνῶσις (gnósis) -- a knowing, knowledge
Cognate: 1108 gnṓsis (a feminine noun derived from 1097 /ginṓskō, "experientially know")
Cognate: 1108 gnṓsis (a feminine noun derived from 1097 /ginṓskō, "experientially know")
I agree the 'know' in part (ginóskó, 1097) is a different word from the 'know' in full (epignōsomai, 1921). The latter means to know thoroughly. We now thoroughly know God's revelation to man in the form of the completed scriptures.
Paul had no idea when the canon would be complete. Nor did he know when he would die. The apostle John lived to see the completed canon, so there was no reason for Paul not to imagine that he would also.
In any case, Paul frequently uses himself as an example in the place of the Corinthians using the first person "I" . 1 Cor 13:1-3, 1 Cor 14:11, 1 Cor 14:14-15. In fact he frequently uses "we" and "you" and "I" in the exact same contexts. In 1 Cor 13:12 he is simply carrying on using the same example "I" as he uses the immediate context (he uses "I" 7 times in v11-12 alone). It is reading too much into the text to say this is anything other than Paul's linguistic style.
There was only a limited number of prophets that could guide the early church in 'the faith'. They could not make themselves available to every single Christian in the world on demand. That is why they prophesied 'in part'. They were piecemeal prophecies only giving a single glimpse of Truth for that moment in time. The church needed the completed scriptures to be able to "fully know" God's revelation to man.
Of course Paul uses the future tense. At the time of his writing prophecy etc was still active in the church. It would only cease when 'completeness' came, when the scriptures were complete. Then they would no longer need prophets to guide them in the faith.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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The key to understanding 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 is understanding the identity of the things involved.
#1. The mirror or the glass = the "Written Word of God." (James 1:22-25) (2 Corinthians 3:15, 2 Corinthians 3:18, 1 Corinthians 13:12).
#2. At the early church age this mirror was dim or dark to see = Incomplete Written Word of God." (or Imperfect Knowledge for the church).
#3. The 1st face = "the reading Christian."
#4. The 2nd face = "What you see in the reflection of the mirror" (Because it is a glass or a mirror that the Christian is looking at.") (Note: So "face to face" in 1 Corinthians 13:12 is in reference to us looking at ourselves in the mirror "face to face" but we see the image of Christ in that mirror instead of ourselves).
So this is not talking about seeing the literal face of Jesus because it in reference to looking in a mirror or glass.
The gospel of Christ that is the image of GOD.
Jesus is the core message of the gospel of Christ.
For there is no other name under Heaven whereby we can be saved.
So Jesus is the one we behold in the mirror of the Written Word of God when we see that our life aligns with His perfect and complete Word that we have today (known as the Bible).
The gospel message of Christ comes from the written Word of God.
No Bible = No gospel.
The doctrine of Christ (that comes from a complete or perfect Bible) for the church today is the mirror that we look at so as to conform to the image of Christ that we see in the mirror. What about all the other missing books in the Bible? God knows exactly what perfect set of instructions or information that we need pertaining to godliness in conforming to Christ's image.
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In the old covenant God spoke to the heart and audibly. We should also not assume sometimes when God spoke that he was speaking audibly outside of them.Here is an image I made today that should hopefully give folks an idea of what is going on.
We read
Psalm 95 - 7. For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, 8. Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:”
Job 33 - 14. For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. 15. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; 16. Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,”
Psalm 51 - 6. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.”
Deuteronomy 30 - 17. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;”
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Yes, I don't disagree that God can talk (nudge, coax, express an emotion within us) within our hearts (by His word), brother. God talking to a person's heart is included in all three phases through out history between GOD and man. This is what happens when a person reads the Bible, God talks to a person's heart when they read it.
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And here are a few more instances of the phrase 'face to face' that have nothing to do with being face to face with God.
Jeremiah 32:4 "Zedekiah king of Judah will not escape out of the hand of the Chaldeans, but he will surely be given into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he will speak with him face to face and see him eye to eye"
Jeremiah 34:3 "you will see the king of Babylon eye to eye, and he will speak with you face to face, and you will go to Babylon."
Acts 25:16 "I answered them that it is not the custom of the Romans to hand over any man before the accused meets his accusers face to face and has an opportunity to make his defense against the charges."
2 Corinthians 10:1 "I who am meek when face to face with you, but bold toward you when absent!"
2 John 1:12 "but I hope to come to you and speak face to face, so that your joy may be made full."
3 John 1:14 "but I hope to see you shortly, and we will speak face to face."
Jeremiah 34:3 "you will see the king of Babylon eye to eye, and he will speak with you face to face, and you will go to Babylon."
Acts 25:16 "I answered them that it is not the custom of the Romans to hand over any man before the accused meets his accusers face to face and has an opportunity to make his defense against the charges."
2 Corinthians 10:1 "I who am meek when face to face with you, but bold toward you when absent!"
2 John 1:12 "but I hope to come to you and speak face to face, so that your joy may be made full."
3 John 1:14 "but I hope to see you shortly, and we will speak face to face."
There are in fact more instances of 'face to face' that do not refer to God, than those that do. So you cannot use other usages of the phrase as an argument for it referring to Christ or God here.
The Old testament was able make Timothy "wise to salvation" through the prophecies of a coming Messiah. The Old Testament saints looked forward to his coming, whilst we look back. But the OT does not provide any guidance in the Christian faith. For that, the fledgling church had to rely on prophets in the absence of the completed NT canon.
"Scripture" in v16 is a different word to "sacred writings" in v15. Here Paul says "ALL scripture", undoubtedly referring to both OT and NT scriptures.
They had all things 'pertaining to life and godliness' but that doesn't mean they knew every nuance of Christian doctrine. That can only come from careful study of the scriptures. The "knowledge of Him" they had was provided by whatever scriptures and teachings they already had, and any further information that was needed was provided via prophecy.
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That passage says nothing of the sort.
Paul's letter was written to "To the church of the Thessalonians" (1 Thes 1:1) at a time when the gift of prophecy was still active in the church. Although most of it still applies to us today, it was not addressed to the universal church.
In any case I would not despise true prophesyings, then or now (if it were still active).
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That verse doesn't say God spoke in our hearts. The only references to God's 'voice' in the WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE is either His audible voice or scripture (see my previous post), never feelings in people's hearts. There is no reason to suppose this is not referring to scripture. If you hear God's word in scripture, do not harden your heart.
That is referring to prophecy, which was God speaking actual words to a prophet.
Num 12:6 “When there is a prophet among you, I, the Lord, reveal myself to them in VISIONS, I speak to them in DREAMS."
No mention of God speaking there.
You have taken that verse out of context. The words the Israelites were hearing were the words of God spoken to Moses (see previous verse), not words spoken in their hearts.
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