A testimony about praying to Mary

BCsenior said:

WOW! ... Who are you, dude?
You seem to be totally misunderstanding what I have been saying.
Questions: Don't you understand that the elderly lady was NOT saved? Don't you understand that she had placed her faith in Orthodox church and her wall of icons?
Just what is your problem anyway?

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Jesus came to save us from ignorance . How do I get saved from the ignorance of ignorant christians ,who are
too ignorant, to know that they are ignorant ?

Kenny'sID said:

Actually, it comes down to whether or not it's a graven image.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Period

Any confusion here does not come from the commandment.

Interestingly, do you see how God actual sounded like thorough contract attorney there, he left no loopholes and was very clear what he was talking about....yet. I don't believe your argument could/would stand up even in a court of law.

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If you're comparing God to a contract attorney then the only logical assumption is that some details have been missed.

Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle.
-- Exodus 25:18

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And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.
-- Numbers 21:8-9

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Two separate passages (one very close to Exod 20), two separate commands to make graven images. What to think of this? Luckily, Sacred Scripture provides an answer.

Keep therefore your souls carefully. You saw not any similitude in the day that the Lord God spoke to you in Horeb from the midst of the fire: Lest perhaps being deceived you might make you a graven similitude, or image of male or female,
-- Deuteronomy 4:15-16

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God had not taken a form and He didn't want the children of Israel to be misled. Hence the embargo on graven images from Exodus 20. But clearly that wasn't a permanent state of affairs as per the items I mentioned from Exodus 25 and Numbers 21.

God Himself ultimately went against the graven image embargo from Exodus 20 because the word became flesh and dwelt among us in the Incarnation. Our Lord is the image of God, as per Colossians 1:14-15.

redleghunter said:

So Ezekiel was speaking of Mary's virginity in the context of that passage?

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Not at all. That was a passage interpreted by Augustine to men's so but his interpretation is grossly inaccurate and has been confirmed countless times. 2Tim 2:15 tells us to rightly divide the word of truth. We are to contend for the truth and if you read Ezekiel 44, you will clearly get the context. The idea that Mary is ever virgin is wrong.
Matthew:1:25 states plainly that Joseph “knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son...” Yes, they consummated their marriage, and Mary and Joseph had children;Mark 6:3, Matthew 13:55.

fat wee robin said:

And it is a kinder and more cohesive culture than America , with her capitalistic ,individualistic, gun carrying culture ,and nuclear weapons etc .

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i'm not going to go into a "culture war" but spain having a more cohesive culture than ours might very well be true but Spain has been around for a few centuries longer and has certainly had her share of bad state actors, dictators, despots, civil wars, etc.

truefiction1 said:

Ezekiel, in the Holy Spirit, says that she is ever-virgin (Ezekiel 44:2). Plus she had no other sons but Christ, which is why from the cross he gave her his beloved disciple John to be his son, and she John's mother. James and Joses, brothers of the Lord, were Mary's stepsons, who were born of Joseph's deceased wife (Joseph was an elderly widower).

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I'm not sure what translation your reading but in my AMP I don't see anything of the sort in Ezek. 44:2. Ezekiel 44:1-2 is as follows: "[1]Then he brought me back by the way of the outter gate of the sanctuary, which faces the east; and it was shut. [2] Then the LORD said to me, 'This gate shall be shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it, for the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it should be shut.'"

The only way that this could possibly pertain to Mary being an "ever-virgin" is if you are saying that the "gate" is a metaphor for Mary's "womb/chastity." God entered her womb with Jesus and so it shall forever be "shut" to future offspring. But that is fantastical, to say the least. If you read it in context from verse 1 onward you'll clearly see the prophet is referencing the Temple in a vision.

Besides that, you would definitely have to "sexualize" verses 3 and 4 since they are of the same imagery. "[3]'As for the prince, he shall sit in it as prince to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by way of the porch (portico) of the gate ad shall go out the same way' [4]Then He brought me by way of the north gate to the front of the house; I looked, and behold, the glory and brilliance of the LORD filled the house of the LORD, and I fell face downward."

We know from experience that the Virgin is close to us in Christ, and intercedes powerfully for us.

I, however, will not defend ANY Marian doctrine on line, except to insist that the Virgin's Son is God Incarnate.

thecolorsblend said:

If you're comparing God to a contract attorney then the only logical assumption is that some details have been missed.

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I think your making much more of that than was intended. The point, God covered things pretty well...so no, God is not being compared to a contract attorney in any other way.

thecolorsblend said:

Two separate passages (one very close to Exod 20), two separate commands to make graven images. What to think of this? Luckily, Sacred Scripture provides an answer.

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What are these "Sacred Scripture", who wrote them, and when.

Kenny'sID said:

I think your making much more of that than was intended.

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You're the one who introduced that metaphor; I simply poked holes in it.

Kenny'sID said:

What are these "Sacred Scripture", who wrote them, and when.

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Is this Socratic? You ask the question, I answer and then you teach me something? Or something? Either way, I'm not Google. You can search for answers on that.

Oh, and as far as the "quote fingers" you use up there are concerned, the reason I and others refer to God's written word as Sacred Scripture is because "the Bible" is the name of a book. Sacred Scripture is what the book collects into a single volume. Thus, calling it Sacred Scripture is more accurate and generally more helpful than simply talking about muh Bible this, muh Bible that and so forth.

thecolorsblend said:

You're the one who introduced that metaphor; I simply poked holes in it.

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I made it clear just what the comparison was even from the start and you took it somewhere else altogether. When you poke holes in something, you prove it wrong, so you did no such thing. Actually what were you doing there trying to get a leg up with something completely irrelevant to subject? Desperate move? IDK

thecolorsblend said:

Is this Socratic? You ask the question, I answer and then you teach me something? Or something? Either way, I'm not Google. You can search for answers on that.

Oh, and as far as the "quote fingers" you use up there are concerned, the reason I and others refer to God's written word as Sacred Scripture is because "the Bible" is the name of a book. Sacred Scripture is what the book collects into a single volume. Thus, calling it Sacred Scripture is more accurate and generally more helpful than simply talking about muh Bible this, muh Bible that and so forth.

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Huh? What's the point of all that? Why not just refer me to the sacred scripture that makes your point instead of just making a claim it does? And the quotes were because I was quoting what you said...nothing more. Again, what are you doing?

Kenny'sID said:

Again, what are you doing?

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Wasting my time.

Goodbye.

thecolorsblend said:

Wasting my time.

Goodbye.

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Then I'll take it there actually was no Sacred Scripture that backed your point as you claimed, so it's time to get out before that's brought to light.

Thanks for at least clearing that up.

And yes, if you think you can make claims without proving them, then you are wasting your time.

We need to be careful where we walk here. Its NOT OUR children. Its not YOUR truth or MINE. If you were blind you would have no sin...you say you see your sin remains.

To many turns for me here. Like some talk now .. Mary was no virgin.. and other things.. praise GOD

We share the gospel to the every creature.. as He said.. in love never forced..never thumped. There were two that were in some city where the people came after them..got them. And then one of those people stood up and said.. these two have been with you ..and not once did they ever make fun of say anything about your gods.

See Yeshua/Jesus is the truth.. truth is He. No matter who you are where you are.. if you seek TRUTH.. from your heart.. it will ALWAYS lead you to Him. SOME in this world talk about Christ is the way but ADD to that... so some think that all the people of that group are lost..or lost if they never heard of Christ. Is that what the word says?

If as Christ said.. you were blind.. you would have no sin.. you say you SEE your sin remains. Many in this world were are blind. You think this JUDGE which is a GOD does not know their heart? We ONLY see flesh...we judge the GROUP by flesh..what we SEE and hear and FEEL. He is not a man nor does He think like one. Its HIS creation.. not yours.. its HIS children not yours. Its HIS word..not yours/mine. YOUR personal belief does not save anyone. HE does.

And the sweet sweet Holy spirit is the only one that draws pulls convicts the heart and leads anyone to the Father. Its not MAN then the Holy Spirit. Its not.. OOH GOD HAS to use US to save anyone. He needs no one. He choose to use us. All praise ALL glory all thanks ..ALWAYS go ONLY to HIM. NEVER man.

Now.. if some Catholic or other person came to me and asked.. to them I would talk. When you just HAVE to say something.. shhh. Well the spirit is NEVER in a hurry. He never rushes.. always uses peace.. you know the fruits of the spirit? HAHA..He knows.. past now and future. He is never in a hurry. And ALWAYS will confirm..backs up what He says.. by the word

Blade said:

so some think that all the people of that group are lost..or lost if they never heard of Christ. Is that what the word says?

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First, is that what we said...I saw nothing of the sort here. You're telling us to be careful, and best I can tell everyone here is careful not to make such claims.

Secondly, Jesus "thumped" and yes the "word" says plenty along those lines.
Does the word not say to keep the commandments? Are we not talking about a specific commandment here that is being broken blatantly?

You can throw all the most understanding words out there you like, and pretty things up nicely to make it seem like we should just say nothing on this subject, or be more understanding, and try to make those who do comment against the sin/demand an explanation in order to make our point into "thumpers" (no, you weren't careful now where you. ) but that doesn't make the fact go away, the commandment is still there and it is still be broken as a lifestyle.

Defend the Catholic view on this or not. A question:

Do you think it's OK to bow to graven images, and if so, why? And please show us where that is biblical?

We don't do this to be mean..mean would be to sit here and say nothing, pretend the problem doesn't exist...very easy to do. Believe it or not this isn't about being right, but caring/concern for what are often good, kind sincere people who may just have some critical things wrong.

Kenny'sID said:

Where in the bible does it claim God made that exception?

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When He commanded them to make graven images for use in the Temple.

BCsenior said:

Perhaps, someone can enlighten us whether or not
Jesus came before or after these brothers of His?

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Scripture makes it evident they came before Jesus, as they do not treat Him at all like He was the eldest but more like a celebrity little brother. It's pretty obvious they didn't grow up in the shadow of the Son of God.

Loyce KG said:

Matthew:1:25 states plainly that Joseph “knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son...” Yes, they consummated their marriage, and Mary and Joseph had children;Mark 6:3, Matthew 13:55.

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John didn't drink any wine until he went to sleep.
Did John drink any wine?
No.

prodromos said:

When He commanded them to make graven images for use in the Temple.

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Then it was not being made "unto you" is was made for God or unto him. Mother Mary statue/image is made unto you.

But either way, that is your reason it is ok to bow down to a graven image?