2,300 evenings and mornings

claninja said:

Absolutely possible. No arguments there.

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What? The Lord be praised forever! I almost always get arguments! Thanks.

claninja said:

I know you are saying the Paul is explaining Daniel 8. But you are providing no evidence that paul is quoting from Daniel 8 in order to explain Daniel 8.

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Paul did not use the words transgression of desolation. But the description of the act by the person in 2Thessalonians2:4 constitutes it - whether Paul quoted those words or not from Daniel 8:13.

claninja said:

And I disagree, for the reasons I stated:

1.) the horn from Daniel 7 comes from the 4th WORLD WIDE kingdom
The horn from Daniel 8 comes from the 3rd WORLD WIDE kingdom

2.) the horn from Daniel 7 tramples the holy people for a time, times, and half a time
The horn from Daniel 8 tramples the holy people for 2,300 evenings and mornings

**2 different origins, 2 different lengths of trampling God's people.

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I posted a post that shows where and why the Anti-Christ must be born in Greece.

There is a 5th Kingdom in Dan. 7, which is the 7th Head of Rev. 13. The Holy people being Conquered, overrun for 1260 days, shows that the Beast rules for 1260 days. But we don't know that he will be allowed to hold onto the Temple of God for 1260 days do we ? So he tramples the holy people, Jerusalem/Israel for 1260 days, killing the Jews and keeping the repentant Jews herded up in Petra. But that doesn't mean God doesn't take the Temple back after day 1150 and "SANCTIFY IT" by His presence !! Thus he would trample the temple and ITS Hosts for 2300 Evenings and Mornings.

claninja said:

There are only 4 world empires listed on the statue, not 5. Rome would have been the last world empire. The saints were to receive the kingdom of God during the 4th world wide empire:

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people.

Daniel 9:27 And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;

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There are clearly 5 Beasts, only four is numbered as such, God likes riddles for one thing, but I also think the 70th week could have happened 2000 years ago if Israel had of accepted Jesus. THINK ABOUT IT......Take out the Church Age and the statue fits perfectly, the Beasts fit perfectly, the 70th week happens via the 70 AD event and Jesus saves Israel, who have repented at that time, but they would not accept Jesus nor repent, and of course God knew that before hand, thus he know the Church Age would be inserted.

Four Beasts with Rome being the fourth. Then a Little Horn arises in the End Time with 10 Kings. He's the last Beast and the last head of Rev. 7. The LAST BEAST is a MAN !! That's why you can't find the Little Horn in Rev. 13, ever wonder why there are only 10 horns ? Because the Little Horn is the LAST HEAD !!

They were to receive the Kingdom during 5th Beast, the 10 toes and Anti-Christ.

claninja said:

And would you look at that, the author of Hebrews states that they were receiving (present tense) a kingdom during the 1st century (roman empire 4th kingdom)

Hebrews 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken,

Oh, and Jesus even states the kingdom of God has come near, this would have been in the 1st century during the 4th world kingdom (rome).

Mark 1:15 The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

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The Kingdom of God is from WITHIN.

claninja said:

These end time theories are a dime a dozen.

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I don't do "THEORIES" I was actually called to Prophecy/preaching over 30 years ago.

claninja said:

So it's just a coincidence that the history of Greece, the 4 kingdoms that Greece split into, and the rise of Antiochus epiphanes, near the end of the Seleucid empire (a greek kingdom by the way) to trample the Jews fits perfectly with Daniel 8? I disagree.

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No sir, God gave us a FORERUNNER so that we will know the Anti-Christ/Beast (or so the Jews will understand) and thus understand who he is, and I see Jason as a forerunner to the False Prophet. Why do you think we get a rundown of ALL these Greek Kings and Syrian Wars but basically get no Roman Kings named ? The Anti-Christ is going to be born in Greece !! And hes going to be an Assyrian (Turkish descent). That is why we get the RUNDOWN of all the Greek Kings and the Syrian War Battles between the KOTN and the KOTS.

He is born in Greece, hes a Turk, and an Atheist, and he's a Subject of the E.U. He thus fits all the criteria.

claninja said:

This visions of Daniel 7 and 8 are not back to back, there are separated by at least 2 years.

Daniel 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon
Daniel 8:1 In the third year of King Belshazzar’s reign,

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God knew they would be back to back in the Holy Bible, He knows all...........They are the SAME MAN Brother.

Revealing Times said:

Four Beasts with Rome being the fourth. Then a Little Horn arises in the End Time with 10 Kings. He's the last Beast and the last head of Rev. 7. The LAST BEAST is a MAN !! That's why you can't find the Little Horn in Rev. 13, ever wonder why there are only 10 horns ? Because the Little Horn is the LAST HEAD !!

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You should be more specific. The little horn person is the 7th head of the 7 heads, representing kings of the fourth empire.
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The last of which beasts? There is the last beast of men. And there is last beast of the kingdom beasts of the nations - as the Roman Empire end times.

The last of the king beasts is the 8th king (of the Roman empire) having been of the seven kings.

The little horn person is the head on the beast in Revelation 13, wounded and brought back to life. Which that head is the 7th of the seven kings.

After he is wounded he is brought back to life - it as the beast, not just a head, in Revelation 13. Which the first beast in Revelation 13 also represents his kingdom.

In other chapters in Revelation, he is not referred to a just the head, but the beast.

I show the relationship between the little horn person who later becomes the beast in Revelation 13, on the chart below.

Douggg said:

Paul did not use the words transgression of desolation. But the description of the act by the person in 2Thessalonians2:4 constitutes it - whether Paul quoted those words or not from Daniel 8:13.

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It is certain that Antiochus became a TYPE of the Beast. That does not mean that verses in Daniel pretaining to Antiochus are a prophecy of The beast in our future; it only means it was a prophecy concerning Antiochus.

claninja said:

Correct, we agree.

I would argue if Paul was, in fact, talking about Daniel 8, he would have quoted it. The fact stands that he didn't.



Paul appears to quote Daniel 11:36, I believe we can agree on this.

Daniel 11:36 The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods.

2 thessalonians 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped,



Arguments rely on evidence, Douggg. You want to make a solid case for you opinion that Paul is talking about Daniel 8? Then provide scripture that shows Paul clearly quoting from Daniel 8. Otherwise, your just posting unsupported theories.

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Exactly! This forum has many posts with unsupported theories.

claninja said:

Paul appears to quote Daniel 11:36, I believe we can agree on this.

Daniel 11:36 The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods.

2 thessalonians 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped,

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Paul was not quoting Daniel 11:36. It is certainly the same person as in 2Thesslaonians2:4, and Daniel 8:13, and Daniel 7:25, and Daniel 9:26b-27. In Daniel 11:36, it is the person after he has become the beast.

Daniel 8:13 pertains to 2Thessalonians2:4, because 2Thessalonians2:4 is an act. To reveal the person as the man of sin. Before that act, he thought to be something else - which being thought of the messiah by the Jews.

In the 2Thessalonians2:4 act, it involves the temple as in Daniel 8:13, which the temple will eventually be cleansed of both the person, and the abomination of desolation, the image made of him - at Jesus's return, when in Daniel 8:25 he trys to stand up against Jesus.

If you follow this chart, it gives the path of the person, starting with being the little horn, until his end as the beast. I should probably improve the size of some of the visuals and note 2Thessalionians2:4 beside of the transgression of desolation ellipse.

Douggg said:

Paul was not quoting Daniel 11:36. It is certainly the same person as in 2Thesslaonians2:4, and Daniel 8:13, and Daniel 7:25, and Daniel 9:26b-27. In Daniel 11:36, it is the person after he has become the beast.

Daniel 8:13 pertains to 2Thessalonians2:4, because 2Thessalonians2:4 is an act. To reveal the person as the man of sin. Before that act, he thought to be something else - which being thought of the messiah by the Jews.

In the 2Thessalonians2:4 act, it involves the temple as in Daniel 8:13, which the temple will eventually be cleansed of both the person, and the abomination of desolation, the image made of him - at Jesus's return, when in Daniel 8:25 he trys to stand up against Jesus.

If you follow this chart, it gives the path of the person, starting with being the little horn, until his end as the beast. I should probably improve the size of some of the visuals and note 2Thessalionians2:4 beside of the transgression of desolation ellipse.

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I don't know if your chart is correct or not, but I do at least agree with a lot of your commentary in this post.

Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Verse 9 says----And out of one of them came forth a little horn. Out of whichone though? Would you agree or disagree that Daniel 7:7 tells which of the 4 the little horn comes out of?

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Would it not be this one? The 4th one, the fourth beast.

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

The 10 horns are part of the fourth beast, and if this little horn came up among them, Daniel 8:9 is apparently referring to the 4th beast in Daniel 7, that beast being which of the 4 he comes out of. If not, how else might we determine which of the 4 he comes out of? Is that supposed to remain a mystery, or should we assume we are told somewhere or another precisely which of the 4 he comes out of?

iamlamad said:

It is certain that Antiochus became a TYPE of the Beast. That does not mean that verses in Daniel pretaining to Antiochus are a prophecy of The beast in our future; it only means it was a prophecy concerning Antiochus.

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There are some verses in Daniel 11 that pertain to Antiochus, but not Daniel 8. The person in Daniel 8, destroys many by peace and stands up to the Prince of Princes.

Do you think the person, as the beast, destroys many by peace?

No he does not. He is not in the role of being the beast when he does that. To destroy many by peace he has to be in the role of being the perceived messiah, and the Jews and the world thinking that they have entered the messianic age of peace and safety.

Daniel 8 in the explanation by the angel to Daniel of the vision, spans what is now history of the medes, persians and the greek empire and four break ups.... in these verses:

We all can agree to verses 20-22, I'm sure.
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20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

...verse 22 is where the reader next to stop in regards to what has already been fulfilled.
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In the remainder of Daniel it is talking about the little horn person. But not just in the role of being the little horn. The verses cover his time as he moves from role to role. Start to end.

First as the little horn, leader of the ten kings kingdom. Which I am saying in practice is the final form of the EU.

Then as his role, as a peace maker, bringing peace to the world as the perceived messiah, by the Jews. Coming into the middle east as the prince who shall come.

Then as his role as the revealed man of sin, when he magnifies himself in his heart, thinks he has achieved God-hood and commits the transgression of desolation act.

Finally in his role as the beast when the attempts to stand up against the Prince of princes - Jesus.

Here are all the roles on this chart...
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DavidPT said:

I don't know if your chart is correct or not, but I do at least agree with a lot of your commentary in this post.

Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Verse 9 says----And out of one of them came forth a little horn. Out of which one though? Would you agree or disagree that Daniel 7:7 tells which of the 4 the little horn comes out of?

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Would it not be this one? The 4th one, the fourth beast.

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

The 10 horns are part of the fourth beast, and if this little horn came up among them, Daniel 8:9 is apparently referring to the 4th beast in Daniel 7, that beast being which of the 4 he comes out of. If not, how else might we determine which of the 4 he comes out of? Is that supposed to remain a mystery, or should we assume we are told somewhere or another precisely which of the 4 he comes out of?

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The little horn person does come out of the 4th beast of Daniel 7.

But in Daniel 8, other information is given. Which we must consider. The four horns in Daniel 8:8-9 are the breakup kingdoms of Alexander's empire.

The key though in understanding Daniel 8:9, is that it is for the end times, because it applies to the little horn person. When he heads south and east toward the promised land.

Because he waxes strong in that direction, that is indication that he is heading up a big army.

It could be taken that he is going to attack Israel at that time. But another way to take it is that he is coming as a peace maker to establish peace in the region.

Which the latter makes more sense if he destroys many by peace - and not using his big army to destroy by war.

In Ezekiel 39, the 7 years that follow are 100% concrete to be the same 7 years of Daniel 9:27, because of the second feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20, with Jesus Himself speaking in verses 21-29 following that Armageddon feast.

Therefore, when Gog/Magog appears to be about to happen, the little horn, leader of the fourth kingdom in the end times, sees that invasion against Israel about to take place, he mobilizes his huge EU army in Greece (the territory of one of the four break up kingdoms), the eastern most frontier. To act as a deterrent.

Which God supernaturally destroys Gog/Magog, after which, the little horn enters the middle east which his large army and secures all of the oil in the middle east for Europe. Under the guises of peace keeping.

The Jews will see his action to deter the invaders as messianic, and with embrace him as their messiah- for a while, until he betrays them with the transgression of desolation act.

Douggg said:

Paul was not quoting Daniel 11:36. It is certainly the same person as in 2Thesslaonians2:4, and Daniel 8:13, and Daniel 7:25, and Daniel 9:26b-27. In Daniel 11:36, it is the person after he has become the beast.

Daniel 8:13 pertains to 2Thessalonians2:4, because 2Thessalonians2:4 is an act. To reveal the person as the man of sin. Before that act, he thought to be something else - which being thought of the messiah by the Jews.

In the 2Thessalonians2:4 act, it involves the temple as in Daniel 8:13, which the temple will eventually be cleansed of both the person, and the abomination of desolation, the image made of him - at Jesus's return, when in Daniel 8:25 he trys to stand up against Jesus.

If you follow this chart, it gives the path of the person, starting with being the little horn, until his end as the beast. I should probably improve the size of some of the visuals and note 2Thessalionians2:4 beside of the transgression of desolation ellipse.

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You are confusing a TYPE with an ANTI-TYPE. Moreover, you are pulling verses out of their context. The entire chapter of Daniel 8 is about Medo-Persia first, then Greece. There are many verses that prove this. This was future to Daniel when he wrote it, but it is history to us today.

I will agree, Antiochus did commit an abomination, and in doing so became a type of the Beast of Rev. 13. Did it not occur to you that just Antiochus BEING in the temple was an abomination?

iamlamad said:

I will agree, Antiochus did commit an abomination, and in doing so became a type of the Beast of Rev. 13. Did it not occur to you that just Antiochus BEING in the temple was an abomination?

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Antiochus committed what is called the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31.

But I would not call Antiochus himself as a proto-type of the beast in Revelation 13. Antiochus was humiliated when he was forced to turn back by the Roman representative, when Antiochus was on his way to depose the king of Egypt.

Exhibiting a different characteristic than Antiochus, the beast in Revelation 13, the same person in Daniel 8 in the later stage of his time, is not defeated by anyone except by Jesus at the Lord's return.

Douggg said:

Antiochus committed what is called the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31.

But I would not call Antiochus himself as a proto-type of the beast in Revelation 13. Antiochus was humiliated when he was forced to turn back by the Roman representative, when Antiochus was on his way to depose the king of Egypt.

Exhibiting a different characteristic than Antiochus, the beast in Revelation 13, the same person in Daniel 8 in the later stage of his time, is not defeated by anyone except by Jesus at the Lord's return.

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Why do you conclude Antiochus fulfilled Daniel 11:31? The one that fulfills Daniel 11:31 is the vile person in verse 21, the same person that comes to his end in verse 45.

claninja said:

Incorrect. IF Daniel 8 did pertain to 2 thessalonians 2:4, Paul would have simply quoted Daniel 8. But he doesn't. Instead, he quotes Daniel 11:36. Daniel 8 occurred and was fulfilled over 2,000 years ago.

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If the little horn in Daniel 8 is meaning the vile person in Daniel 11:21, and that the vile person in Daniel 11:21 is meaning this same king in Daniel 11:36, I don't see the problem.

Douggg said:

Antiochus committed what is called the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31.

But I would not call Antiochus himself as a proto-type of the beast in Revelation 13. Antiochus was humiliated when he was forced to turn back by the Roman representative, when Antiochus was on his way to depose the king of Egypt.

Exhibiting a different characteristic than Antiochus, the beast in Revelation 13, the same person in Daniel 8 in the later stage of his time, is not defeated by anyone except by Jesus at the Lord's return.

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I will give you this: you have an amazing imagination - imagining things the scripture does not.
If you want to tie Dan. 8 to the Antichrist, you will have to find scripture that tells us. Just finding someone in the Old Testament that will do the same thing as the beast does not make that scripture REFER to the Beast - or the intent of the Author be that He is talking about the beast.

When we look at the entire chapter of Dan. 8, the context is Greece.