One of the most controversial issues, is the DAY OF WORSHIP

mmksparbud said:

And just exactly what do you think Jesus and the disciples and all other Jews did in the Temple???
Jesus taught both in the synagogue and Temple--the synagogue was the place for schooling, the Temple was for worship. It was where the Most Holy place was, where the Holy Place was, where the people met for worship and for tithe paying---and they met every Sabbath as well as on the other Sabbath days and for the daily sacrifices.

"The Mishnah(1) describes the educational process for a young Jewish boy in Jesus' time.

At five years old [one is fit] for the Scripture, at ten years the Mishnah (oral Torah, interpretations) at thirteen for the fulfilling of the commandments, at fifteen the Talmud (making Rabbinic interpretations), at eighteen the bride-chamber, at twenty pursuing a vocation, at thirty for authority (able to teach others)This clearly describes the exceptional student, for very few would become teachers but indicates the centrality of Scripture in the education in Galilee...
Schools were associated with the local synagogue in first century Galilee. Apparently each community would hire a teacher (respectfully called "rabbi") for the school. While this teacher was responsible for the education of the village he had no special authority in the synagogue itself. Children began their study at age 4-5 in Beth Sefer (elementary school). Most scholars believe both boys and girls attended the class in the synagogue. The teaching focused primarily on the Torah, emphasizing both reading and writing Scripture. Large portions were memorized and it is likely that many students knew the entire Torah by memory by the time this level of education was finished."
Rabbi and Talmidim

It is your addition the words of Jesus that says there is no longer a time for worship--Jesus did not say that. He expected the Sabbath to still be kept after His resurrection. Jesus foretold the destruction of the temple, which wasn't for another 70 years.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

There will always be a Sabbath day.
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

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Brother ..I do you no wrong for allowing that some observe only one day a week in which to rest in the salvation of our sabbath Jesus Christ ...and Saturday in certain parts of the world and in certain belief systems is the actual Jewish Sabbath. ( Although in different time zones , Saturday is a different day. ) My faith holds that every day is His and I am also His . Yes , it was very difficult for Jewish believers to flee on the sabbath and of course Christ was not sent ( immediately ) to the gentiles anyway but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel .
Brother ..you misquoted me or misunderstood me ...Jesus said that the time is coming and NOW is the time to worship ...I am in N america so the actual sabbath will not come until several days from now but I chose to worship Now ....shall you forbid that ? I worship in the spirit and in the truth ..and not for man's sake , nor for any group , nor for myself ( although it does benefit me ) but because of who He is... For me , worship is knowing the Father through His son. Is He not beautiful in His humility and His meekness and patience ? How stunning is our Father !!! Learning is learning , teaching is teaching and these things are done at buildings on certain places set aside for that and traditionally but not always , it included songs of worship and praise. By all means meet in Saturday but do not try to quench the spirit of those who observe every day alike ... Jesus Christ taught us that through His apostle Paul ....In eternity , every day is the sabbath ...from one sabbath to the next ...when does eternity start ? In Christ Jesus ... Whosoever does not gather scatters. Is the part ( Saturday) not also included in the whole ? As you said ..the Temple WAS a place for worship but the time is coming and now is . Wherever two or more are gathered in His name .
Isiah , Amos and Jesus ( who was the WORD to these prophets ) spoke of those who gather in solemn assemblies and invented unto themselves instruments like unto David ..... The tree of knowledge of good and evil brings death as does the letter ..it is very difficult to know when one is eating from it ...My answer to the brother was true ..He is free to worship every day but we are not to forsake the assembling ourselves together ...and even more so as that day approaches ...why ? To exhort one another ..to stir one another up to love and good works .. But many congregations assemble to reinforce their own pet doctrines thereby lifting themselves up in spiritual pride and leaving a sense of superiority ...this is a tragedy for God gives grace to the humble but opposes the proud . This is why Paul ( my apostle ..for I am a gentile by birth and a new creation by new birth ) says that we dare not make ourselves of the number , or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves , but they measuring themselves by themselves , and comparing themselves among themselves are not wise . ( 2 Corinthians 10:12 ) It is the bane of most every group Southern Baptist ..amish , orthodox Jews , catholics , protestants , JW's , Mormons and maybe SDA's ..you will have to answer that question but it is pretty common to start comparing yourself by what you believe ....Think of the early moravians who through great love , were willing to be sold into slavery in order to preach to slaves in the west indies for their salvation ..( By the way , they did not observe a saturday sabbath but I think love is better than keeping a sabbath with no love for others ) How often we take the highest seat at a feast to which we have been invited because of what we believe ...a pity isn't it ? Keep the saturday Sabbath for indeed it IS the sabbath but do not forget love .

Strong in Him said:

1. Jesus didn't teach that his followers - and especially his Gentile followers - had to keep the Sabbath.

2. Maybe you could tell me exactly how I'm supposed to keep the Sabbath; what should I do?
Rest from my work? I don't have a job. I do voluntary work to help others, and even the Pharisees helped people on the Sabbath.
Sit around every Saturday doing nothing? Could do; but as I don't work and could do that all day from Tues-Thurs, how would that be any different?
Worship God? I do that every day, so how is it more special on a Sabbath day - especially one that we have not been commanded to keep?

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If you're going to keep the old covenant sabbath, some will tell you that you *must* work for six days, and if you don't, you are breaking God's law. Then you must rest from those six days of work on the seventh day.

Of course, none of them are keeping the sabbath either since they are typically doing things like cooking (lighting fires) rather than making twice the amount of food the day before for use on the sabbath, traveling outside their homes, working for income and rationalizing it's okay because it's in a medical field, etc.

Or we as new covenant Christians can put our focus on Christ and experience sabbath every day of the week in him.

bekkilyn said:

If you're going to keep the old covenant sabbath, some will tell you that you *must* work for six days, and if you don't, you are breaking God's law. Then you must rest from those six days of work on the seventh day.

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Oh, well that's me out then.

bekkilyn said:

Of course, none of them are keeping the sabbath either since they are typically doing things like cooking (lighting fires) rather than making twice the amount of food the day before for use on the sabbath, traveling outside their homes, working for income and rationalizing it's okay because it's in a medical field, etc.

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That's probably the case.

bekkilyn said:

Or we as new covenant Christians can put our focus on Christ and experience sabbath every day of the week in him.

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I'm with you on that one.

Strong in Him said:

1. Jesus didn't teach that his followers - and especially his Gentile followers - had to keep the Sabbath.

2. Maybe you could tell me exactly how I'm supposed to keep the Sabbath; what should I do?
Rest from my work? I don't have a job. I do voluntary work to help others, and even the Pharisees helped people on the Sabbath.
Sit around every Saturday doing nothing? Could do; but as I don't work and could do that all day from Tues-Thurs, how would that be any different?
Worship God? I do that every day, so how is it more special on a Sabbath day - especially one that we have not been commanded to keep?

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Just curious - are you disabled? Why don’t you work?

ace of hearts said:

Please post any Scripture the Apostles lived and taught obligation to the law, specifically the sabbath.

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The burden is on you to prove that Christ & the Apostles lived & taught a lawless life.

Lawlessness is condemned throughout the whole Bible - it makes no sense that Christ and the apostles taught and lived a life of lawlessness.

Dkh587 said:

Just curious - are you disabled? Why don’t you work?

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I do have a slight mobility issue, but I can't get a job. Or at least, not a job in the area I believe the Lord is calling me to.

As I had M.E. for 18 years and couldn't work, my CV is no doubt disastrous. Despite that, I've been shortlisted several times and been told I have a lot to offer - apparently not enough for anyone to offer me a job, however.

ace of hearts said:

If you quoted it there's no need to reveal anything. If I provide any Scripture of historical records you'll simply ignore or claim they're inaccurate/false.

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You said it was easily revealed and revealed nothing--so then I must assume you have no revelation. Ok.

bekkilyn said:

If you're going to keep the old covenant sabbath, some will tell you that you *must* work for six days, and if you don't, you are breaking God's law. Then you must rest from those six days of work on the seventh day.

Of course, none of them are keeping the sabbath either since they are typically doing things like cooking (lighting fires) rather than making twice the amount of food the day before for use on the sabbath, traveling outside their homes, working for income and rationalizing it's okay because it's in a medical field, etc.

Or we as new covenant Christians can put our focus on Christ and experience sabbath every day of the week in him.

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Or how about requiring servants to work so they can have their modern day conveniences.

Dkh587 said:

The burden is on you to prove that Christ & the Apostles lived & taught a lawless life.

Lawlessness is condemned throughout the whole Bible - it makes no sense that Christ and the apostles taught and lived a life of lawlessness.

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No because it isn't my claim.

mmksparbud said:

You said it was easily revealed and revealed nothing--so then I must assume you have no revelation. Ok.

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You quoted nothing. Therefore you revealed nothing in your post. So what it really means to me is you want me to give you some evidence to reject or even ignore. Was ist los?

JohnB445 said:

I've been told the sabbath is optional, and just a day of rest from work. I took his word by faith. Then I hear different perspectives I can't figure out which one is true. The Bible doesn't seem to support Sabbath-keeping in the new covenant from when I read.

Where can I find an undeniable fact that it's either optional or that we are meant to still keep it? I am still confused on this controversy, and on top of that even if the 7th day is the day of worship there are literally no churches around me that even worship on the 7th day. And if its not even a big deal, I have no problem worshipping on Sunday.

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First of all -- let's just look at basic irrefutable Bible facts about God's Sabbath.

1. Jer 31:31-33 the NEW covenant says "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind". Exegesis demands that we admit that the author (Jeremiah in this case) and his primary audience knew that the TEN Commandments were spoken by God Himself and written by God Himself -- in stone. And that the Sabbath is one of them. This is irrefutable. (Note that in Heb 8:6-10 that New Covenant is unchanged from the Jeremiah 31 form)

2. Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" (section 19) and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" (section 19) affirm that ALL TEN of the Ten commandments are included in the moral law of God "written on the heart" under the NEW Covenant. This is irrefutable. They do say that.

3. God says the Sabbath was "made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 and that "All mankind" is to come before God for worship "From Sabbath to Sabbath" Isaiah 66:23 and in Isaiah 56:5-8 gentiles are specifically singled out for keeping the Sabbath -- this is irrefutable. The text says it.

4. God says that the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12 and Paul says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 .. this is irrefutable.

5. God says the Sabbath is a day of worship and holy convocation Lev 23:3, Isaiah 66:23 this too is "irrefutable".

6. God says the Sabbath is not a day for secular activity of any kind - Isaiah 58:13-14. This is irrefutable.

7. In the OT there were many commands and many promises. In the OT the Ten Commandments were distinguished from all of them because
a. Only the TEN were kept inside the ark
b. Only the TEN were written by God Himself on stone.
c. Only the TEN were spoken directly by God to all Israel.
e. Only in the unit of TEN do we find the commandment with a promise that starts with "Honor your father and mother" as the FIRST commandment with a promise.

And in the NT we have that SAME acceptance of the TEN where the 5th commandment is the "first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

This too is irrefutable.

According to Christianity Today - in a Feb 2015 article - the Seventh-day Adventist church is the 5th largest Christian denomination on planet Earth. Adventists: Can Ben Carson's Church Stay Separatist?

And it has world wide programs on internet, radio, TV as well as a lot of local congregations.

(I only mention this last point because you ask about the availability of seventh day Sabbath keeping groups - and the Adventist church is one of them)

in Christ,

Bob

ace of hearts said:

So believing Romans seems to be proof that I don't believe the word of God.In case you make a comment about Paul, let me include the gospels of Luke and John.

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You are leaving me in a state of confusion on your believes. You claim you think Paul may not be telling the truth and did not clarify that, are you now claiming that Luke and John are not either?? You are not clearly stating what it is you believe. I believe the whole bible is the inspired word of God---all of it not just certain parts. Do you?

ace of hearts said:

If the Scripture is true, the following verse proves Jesus didn't write the 10 commandments -

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

More evidence is found in John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

I'll also add:

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

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Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Aging---the Levitical laws of sacrifices were written by the hand of Moses on scrolls--these were kept outside the Ark and those were nailed to the cross. Salvation has always been by faith.

Hab_2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.



Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

It was He that created this world, with the Holy Spirit and his Father. It was He that instituted the Sabbath at creation. The OT is a revelation of Him. and He is a revelation of His Father---the 3 are one---Do you not believe that? The whole sanctuary service points to Christ--Do you not believe that? Jesus kept all the commandments, He kept the Sabbath. do you not believe that either?

Why do you stop at Luke 16:16?

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

And how in the world does John 15:10 disprove the Sabbath?
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

ace of hearts said:

So continue to read Romans at least thru chapter 8.

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I've read all of Romans, many, many times. Is there a particular passage that interests you?

ace of hearts said:

Even if I quote Moses you'll throw it out. NTL here's a good one -

Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

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I take all the bible--most of the NT is quoting from the OT--and Jesus quoted it often. Hoses predicted for Israel what did come true.

Hos 2:7 And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find them: then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me than now.
Hos 2:8 For she did not know that I gave her corn, and wine, and oil, and multiplied her silver and gold, which they prepared for Baal.
Hos 2:9 Therefore will I return, and take away my corn in the time thereof, and my wine in the season thereof, and will recover my wool and my flax given to cover her nakedness.
Hos 2:10 And now will I discover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers, and none shall deliver her out of mine hand.
Hos 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.
Hos 2:12 And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees, whereof she hath said, These are my rewards that my lovers have given me: and I will make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall eat them.

He also predicted that Israel would return to the Lord.

Hos 2:19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
Hos 2:20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.

ace of hearts said:

Without the actual stone tablets the best anyone can do is trust that Moses is telling the truth. Why doesn't Paul get the same respect? Why doesn't other NT authors and Characters (esp Jesus) also get it?This invalidates your argument on every level.How does Hosea indicate man would do this? I read that God would.Is the 7th day sabbath a holy day? Yes or no.The prophets do.

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More bible... less gaming please.

1. Ex 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy"
2. Moses is telling the truth - and God Himself wrote the Ten Commandments on stone.
3. New covenant Jer 31:31-33 "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" is unchanged in the NT - see it in Hebrew 8:6-10

ace of hearts said:

If the Scripture is true, the following verse proves Jesus didn't write the 10 commandments -

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

More evidence is found in John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

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you did not provide a single text to prove Jesus is not God - writing the Ten Commandments on Sinai.

By contrast - Hebrews 8:6-10 DOES prove that Jesus is God writing the TEN commandments at Sinai.

Glad you brought up that topic... I love it.

ace of hearts said:

You quoted nothing. Therefore you revealed nothing in your post. So what it really means to me is you want me to give you some evidence to reject or even ignore. Was ist los?

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It is you that said this:

ace of hearts said:

It's very interesting what is accepted and what is rejected when it comes to support of the sabbath. The claim of the RCC is a false claim as secular (non Scriptural) will easily reveal.

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I have asked several times now for you to reveal this information and have failed to do so!!!

mmksparbud said:

It is you that said this:



I have asked several times now for you to reveal this information and have failed to do so!!!

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Hers's for you and your buddy -

Rev 4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Please note Rev 4:2,3, 11 and 5:5, 6 and 7. The Creator of heaven and earth isn't Jesus, the slain Lamb.

For good measure -

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Who is confused, God, John or you? I believe all the Scripture to be divinely inspired, not the work or invention of man and without error.

Now let's see your contrary evidence.

ace of hearts said:

Please note Rev 4:2,3, 11 and 5:5, 6 and 7. The Creator of heaven and earth isn't Jesus, the slain Lamb.
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More Bible - less creative writing please. You are dividing the members of the Trinity against themselves... that idea does not work.

John 1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Clearly that is Jesus

Col 1 - 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Clearly that is Jesus


And Heb 8:6-10 says it is Jesus speaking the Sabbath commandment at Sinai

In Genesis 1 the term for God is plural - it is all the Trinity taking action in creation. You cannot single out one of them and add the nonsensical "not the Creator" because such divisions are not supportable in scripture.

mmksparbud said:

You are leaving me in a state of confusion on your believes. You claim you think Paul may not be telling the truth and did not clarify that, are you now claiming that Luke and John are not either?? You are not clearly stating what it is you believe. I believe the whole bible is the inspired word of God---all of it not just certain parts. Do you?

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Why are you projecting this on me? You know very well I believe Paul is telling the truth. Why would you think I believe that Luke and John are also lying?

I already posted Luke 16:16 which you tried to invalidate with verse 17. Indeed you or Luke are confused.

John says in his Gospel - 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

And in 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

Is John confused or lying? Do you believe the Gospel of John?

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

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What does verse 22 say? Isn't it all are under sin. I don't read anything about being under the law.

What is this promise given to those who believe? Where does the law give this promise? The law only provides for temporal life. See Deuteronomy.

How are we justified? By the law? No, only by Jesus to which the law brings us. Verse 24 says the law was and we're justified by faith (in Jesus) as verse 26 says. Verse 25 says we're no longer under that school master.

Verse 27 says we've put on Jesus Christ.

There's absolutely nothing in your chosen passage above about being obligated to the law in any way.

While we're in Galatians -check out chapter 5.

5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

There's much more in the chapter I didn't comment on at this point. We can discuss it if you like.

Aging---the Levitical laws of sacrifices were written by the hand of Moses on scrolls--these were kept outside the Ark and those were nailed to the cross. Salvation has always been by faith.

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So all you have is the testimony of Moses. You don't have the stone tablets and can't produce them. Why is it you refuse to believe Hosea I quoted and Jeremiah's prophecy about a new covenant unlike the one enforce at the time?

Hab_2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

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Yes, but you believe it's the ability to keep the law even when Psalms says twice (14:3 and 53:3) that no one does and Jesus proved no one can in Mat 19. The Jews recognized the law as a curse in Neh 10:29. For your viewing pleasure -

They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

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The above doesn't say anything about the law. I do understand you think you can keep the law by faith. The problem is as I referenced above the Scripture says no. Who is right?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

It was He that created this world, with the Holy Spirit and his Father. It was He that instituted the Sabbath at creation. The OT is a revelation of Him. and He is a revelation of His Father---the 3 are one---Do you not believe that? The whole sanctuary service points to Christ--Do you not believe that? Jesus kept all the commandments, He kept the Sabbath. do you not believe that either?

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I'm sorry but Rev 4 and 5 says otherwise. Either you or John are confused. As it has been posted in this forum, should one believe you or the Scripture?

Why do you stop at Luke 16:16?

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

And how in the world does John 15:10 disprove the Sabbath?
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

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The verse contrasts two sets of commandments. You believe Jesus issued the famous 10 while Gal 3:19 says that Jesus didn't come before the law and it passed when He did come.

You must identify both sets of commandments. Jesus didn't take possession of of His Father's commandments. Nor did Jesus tell us to keep them. Remember the Scripture says no one does. We know that Jesus kept all the applicable law as required by a Jew. Your evidence that Jesus kept something else is....

I've read all of Romans, many, many times. Is there a particular passage that interests you?

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Way to many for a single post. Start with 5:13. Proceed through chapter 8 at least. This in no way means lack of interest in the rest of Romans. Chapter 6 says we're raised in the likeness of Jesus. We don't live to the law. In verse 14 and 15 we're not under (obligated to) the law. They also say we're under grace. This isn't permission to sin as verse 15 indicates. It doesn't indicate breaking the law. Remember 5:13?

Romans 7 likens the law to a dead husband. We aren't obligated to the law of a dead person (the law). Thus we're free to marry another (Jesus). The chapter goes on to say we're now (currently) delivered from the law. Least you say that means the oral law, Paul mentions the tenth commandment for identification that he's indeed talking about the famous 10.

Verses 10-14 say the law kills and Rom 6:23 says the wages of sin (violation of the law) brings death and life comes through Jesus, not the law. Is Paul wrong? If so the Scriptures are unreliable and not inspired by God.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law can't condemn me for anything according to this passage.

The law only attempts to regulate the body of flesh. It doesn't change the heart.

I take all the bible--most of the NT is quoting from the OT--and Jesus quoted it often. Hoses predicted for Israel what did come true.

Hos 2:7 And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find them: then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me than now.
Hos 2:8 For she did not know that I gave her corn, and wine, and oil, and multiplied her silver and gold, which they prepared for Baal.
Hos 2:9 Therefore will I return, and take away my corn in the time thereof, and my wine in the season thereof, and will recover my wool and my flax given to cover her nakedness.
Hos 2:10 And now will I discover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers, and none shall deliver her out of mine hand.
Hos 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.
Hos 2:12 And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees, whereof she hath said, These are my rewards that my lovers have given me: and I will make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall eat them.

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So you don't believe Hosea either. OK

He also predicted that Israel would return to the Lord.

Hos 2:19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
Hos 2:20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.

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Where does the above imply a return to the law? Does the Scripture anywhere indicate what is called the New Covenant as a temporary thing? Remember Gal 5 says returning to the law voids salvation (makes Jesus unprofitable).

ace of hearts said:

No because it isn't my claim.

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That’s exactly what you are claiming.

Teaching disobedience to God’s law is teaching lawlessness.

The burden is still on you to prove that Christ & the Apostles taught disobedience to God’s law. Prove it.

ace of hearts said:

Hers's for you and your buddy -

Rev 4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Please note Rev 4:2,3, 11 and 5:5, 6 and 7. The Creator of heaven and earth isn't Jesus, the slain Lamb.

For good measure -

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Who is confused, God, John or you? I believe all the Scripture to be divinely inspired, not the work or invention of man and without error.

Now let's see your contrary evidence.

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You still did not answer!

ace of hearts said: ↑
It's very interesting what is accepted and what is rejected when it comes to support of the sabbath. The claim of the RCC is a false claim as secular (non Scriptural) will easily reveal.

Where is your "revelation?"

Are you saying that John is a liar????? Why do you argue against what he says if you believe the bible to be true
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Where do any of those verses you quoted contradict John? read post #97.