Recovering Apostolic Pentecostal

Blade said:

Since before and after Christ came..... something has not...its still alive today. DOUBT. Christ goes to a town..and He that full of the holy Spirit.. could do no might work only lay hands a few and teach.. because of doubt.

With out faith we will never please Him. Do it.. take something this GOD said... try to call Him a lair.. do it.. as in just be like a child..believe what He said...and never ever have to give what ever it is a second thought. If HE said it ..it HAS to happen. His WORD is His will.

If MAN says no.. I dont believe.. you think this GOD will go against your will? He will not even FORCE you to be saved... so.. you have not because you ask not or you asking wrong.. HIS WORD IS HIS WILL. Is it written?

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Billy Evmur said:

You say the sick no longer need to be healed...hmmm drug addicts not longer need supernatural deliverance, demons no longer need to be cast out.

...No wonder the church is in a mess.

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Billy Evmur said:

You are not marrying your mother in law you are marrying your husband, his is the only opinion that matters....you can abide with his denomination while holding your own views and maintaining your own personal relation with the Lord.

There is no such thing as cessationalism...some gifts are more acceptable than others, the word of wisdom, of knowledge have always been in evidence in the church as has discernment of spirits.

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Major1 said:

Is drug addition a sickness????
Isn't it actually a choice to do something we should not do.

Have you actually in person seen a demon cast out of a possessed person?

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Major1 said:

1 Corinthians 13:8-10...….
"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears."

I can not believe that those 2 verses are so hard to understand.

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Billy Evmur said:

Sure they will, when we see Him face to face. until then my friend we still see as through a glass darkly.

Faith Hope and Love is the more excellent way in which the gifts of the Holy Spirit will work.

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Billy Evmur said:

We have had drug addiction since the beginning of time mate...alcohol , tobacco is drug abuse.

What was YOUR poison before you were saved? I suggest to most people it was whatever they could get their hands on.

What about your other past sins? why are you on the backs of junkies? you talking like the righteous who does not have a lot of mercy for the sinner.... that is unChristlike.


Will He deliver the junkie? ...you betcha. And yes I have seen devils being driven out.

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Major1 said:

May I say to you with all due respect my friend that the Greek grammer does not say that in 1 Cor. 13:8-10.

The "Perfect" that comes which puts and end to the "Temporary" sign gifts can not be a PERSON such as Jesus who was the perfect God-Man.

The grammer demands that the Perfect is a THING and not a person which means that it can only be the Bible, the written Word of God.

The key word to notice is ‘perfect’. It is the Greek word τέλειον. This Word appears 19 times in the New Testament, and three times in the epistle of 1 Corinthians. The other two times we see this word in 1 Corinthians it is translated as ‘mature’. The Greek-English dictionary of the New Testament gives the range of its meaning: “complete, perfect, whole ( ἔργον τ. full effect, successful results Jas 1.4); full-grown, mature (of persons); τελειότερος more perfect (He 9.11)".
What is the ‘Perfect’ in 1 Corinthians 13?

It seems to me that if Paul had wanted to talk about heaven or the return of Christ, there are far clearer ways he could have described it, there are way better words that he uses elsewhere. However, you can understand the difficulty in trying to describe the end of a process like ‘the Canon’ or some such thing. In summary, Paul’s use of the word ‘perfect’ is understandable if he is trying to describe an abstract idea that will culminate soon, but it does not make sense for Paul to use this word to describe something that is clear and understandable like he has elsewhere.

The weight of evidence seems to be clearly on the idea that the ‘mature’ is the ‘maturing of the revelatory process’ seen in the completion of God’s sufficient Word.

UOTE]

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Major1 said:

May I say to you with all due respect my friend that the Greek grammer does not say that in 1 Cor. 13:8-10.

The "Perfect" that comes which puts and end to the "Temporary" sign gifts can not be a PERSON such as Jesus who was the perfect God-Man.

The grammer demands that the Perfect is a THING and not a person which means that it can only be the Bible, the written Word of God.

The key word to notice is ‘perfect’. It is the Greek word τέλειον. This Word appears 19 times in the New Testament, and three times in the epistle of 1 Corinthians. The other two times we see this word in 1 Corinthians it is translated as ‘mature’. The Greek-English dictionary of the New Testament gives the range of its meaning: “complete, perfect, whole ( ἔργον τ. full effect, successful results Jas 1.4); full-grown, mature (of persons); τελειότερος more perfect (He 9.11)".
What is the ‘Perfect’ in 1 Corinthians 13?

It seems to me that if Paul had wanted to talk about heaven or the return of Christ, there are far clearer ways he could have described it, there are way better words that he uses elsewhere. However, you can understand the difficulty in trying to describe the end of a process like ‘the Canon’ or some such thing. In summary, Paul’s use of the word ‘perfect’ is understandable if he is trying to describe an abstract idea that will culminate soon, but it does not make sense for Paul to use this word to describe something that is clear and understandable like he has elsewhere.

The weight of evidence seems to be clearly on the idea that the ‘mature’ is the ‘maturing of the revelatory process’ seen in the completion of God’s sufficient Word.

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Major1 said:

May I say to you with all due respect my friend that the Greek grammer does not say that in 1 Cor. 13:8-10.

The "Perfect" that comes which puts and end to the "Temporary" sign gifts can not be a PERSON such as Jesus who was the perfect God-Man.

The grammer demands that the Perfect is a THING and not a person which means that it can only be the Bible, the written Word of God.

The key word to notice is ‘perfect’. It is the Greek word τέλειον. This Word appears 19 times in the New Testament, and three times in the epistle of 1 Corinthians. The other two times we see this word in 1 Corinthians it is translated as ‘mature’. The Greek-English dictionary of the New Testament gives the range of its meaning: “complete, perfect, whole ( ἔργον τ. full effect, successful results Jas 1.4); full-grown, mature (of persons); τελειότερος more perfect (He 9.11)".
What is the ‘Perfect’ in 1 Corinthians 13?

It seems to me that if Paul had wanted to talk about heaven or the return of Christ, there are far clearer ways he could have described it, there are way better words that he uses elsewhere. However, you can understand the difficulty in trying to describe the end of a process like ‘the Canon’ or some such thing. In summary, Paul’s use of the word ‘perfect’ is understandable if he is trying to describe an abstract idea that will culminate soon, but it does not make sense for Paul to use this word to describe something that is clear and understandable like he has elsewhere.

The weight of evidence seems to be clearly on the idea that the ‘mature’ is the ‘maturing of the revelatory process’ seen in the completion of God’s sufficient Word.

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Major1 said:

Is drug addition a sickness????
Isn't it actually a choice to do something we should not do.

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Major1 said:

Billy, do you really think that your response to me in the above post is "Christlike"????

I am not on the backs of anyone my brother. I just asked a question and you took the personal attack mode of operation.

I do not operate on such a level so I will bid you a good day and a blessed life.

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thecolorsblend said:

For a lot of people there isn't a choice. They're predisposed to be addicts.

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Billy Evmur said:

But it is in the bible, complete and all sufficient as you say that we are exhorted to earnestly desire the higher gifts, especially that we may prophesy.

The bible desires that we did all speak in tongues.

There are a number of problems with interpreting the perfect with the canon not least of which is that following the canon the church went through 1500 years of utter darkness with the Roman Catholic church.

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Major1 said:

Yes, there have been many studies to say that. However, would you agree that many people who come from alcohol or addicted families avoid alcohol and drug use. If you don’t drink or use drugs, addiction can’t develop.

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thecolorsblend said:

I understand your point but I can’t agree or disagree with that since I have no way of knowing for certain. I would say that they certainly have a lot of incentives to avoid those substances. But they also have a lot of enablers too.

The fact is that addiction can have many causes. I know people who were born addicted to nicotine because their mothers smoked while pregnant. Others have a predisposition for some substance or another seemingly through fact of biology. And then there also mental and psychological factors to consider in other cases.

Bottom line, love for and patience with addicts is probably the best move.

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Billy Evmur said:

But it is in the bible, complete and all sufficient as you say that we are exhorted to earnestly desire the higher gifts, especially that we may prophesy.

The bible desires that we did all speak in tongues.

There are a number of problems with interpreting the perfect with the canon not least of which is that following the canon the church went through 1500 years of utter darkness with the Roman Catholic church.

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Major1 said:

The understandable "tongues" which were in fact LANGUAGES spoken in the Bible by the Apostles is NOT what we see in churches all over the land today.

I find no warrant for changing the meaning of tongues in First Corinthians. In every other place where the word is used it means languages. Why then should the meaning be changed in First Corinthians? I know of no textual license that will warrant changing the meaning of the word. All the usages of tongues in Paul’s treatment of the subject refer to foreign languages.

1 Corth. 14:9...……..
“So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into air”.

There is no reason for anyone to speak except to converse intelligibly. The Greek word laleo means “I speak.” The word is never used for mere sound or noise. Nor is it used for a mere mumbling or muttering of unintelligible gibberish that I am talking about which is the practice done today.

The tongues-speaking in the New Testament was in the native languages of hearing people. The supernatural phenomenon which took place at Pentecost was the exercise of a gift whereby many people from many countries, gathered at Jerusalem, heard God’s message in their own language. This was indeed a miracle of God.

It would be an arbitrary and strange interpretation of Scripture that would make tongues-speaking in the New Testament anything other than known languages. There is no trace of Scriptural evidence that tongues were ever heard by anyone as incoherent, incomprehensible babbling.

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Major1 said:

The understandable "tongues" which were in fact LANGUAGES spoken in the Bible by the Apostles is NOT what we see in churches all over the land today.

I find no warrant for changing the meaning of tongues in First Corinthians. In every other place where the word is used it means languages. Why then should the meaning be changed in First Corinthians? I know of no textual license that will warrant changing the meaning of the word. All the usages of tongues in Paul’s treatment of the subject refer to foreign languages.

1 Corth. 14:9...……..
“So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into air”.

There is no reason for anyone to speak except to converse intelligibly. The Greek word laleo means “I speak.” The word is never used for mere sound or noise. Nor is it used for a mere mumbling or muttering of unintelligible gibberish that I am talking about which is the practice done today.

The tongues-speaking in the New Testament was in the native languages of hearing people. The supernatural phenomenon which took place at Pentecost was the exercise of a gift whereby many people from many countries, gathered at Jerusalem, heard God’s message in their own language. This was indeed a miracle of God.

It would be an arbitrary and strange interpretation of Scripture that would make tongues-speaking in the New Testament anything other than known languages. There is no trace of Scriptural evidence that tongues were ever heard by anyone as incoherent, incomprehensible babbling.

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YeshuaFan said:

All of the Tongues in the Book of Acts were real human languages that were not learned by the speaker, and there were no 'heavenly prayer languages" tongues ever given, as tongues were meant to be used in the local assembly before the canon of scriptures were completed unto the Church!

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YeshuaFan said:

Scriptures tell us that not all speak in tongues though, correct?

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