What Did The ECF Believe About End Times

BABerean2 said:

It does not.

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,

Revelation 19:19-21. Goes here.

And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

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When are the nations angry though? After the sounding of the 7th trumpet, obviously. They are not angry because they are dead, thus they are still physically alive after the 7th trumpet has already sounded. Where it then leads to lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. Where do we see any of that being depicted in Revelation 19?

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Is verse 52 referring to the 7th trumpet or not? If yes----does not the following verse indicate the dead in Christ rise first? They can't rise first if those not in Christ also rise at that time, can they?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The chronology would be this then. The 7th trumpet sounds, the dead in Christ rise. The nations are angry, followed by lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail, where eventually Revelation 19:21 is fulfilled. This clearly indicates that the bodily resurrection of the unsaved dead can't occur when the dead in Christ rise first, nor can it occur before Revelation 19:21 is fulfilled first. Maybe the reason why Revelation 20:5 indicates the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

BABerean2 said:

If you want to think the Two Witnesses are two men made of wood and metal, then go right ahead.

That idea fits perfectly with pretrib logic.

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No that's just you twisting scripture again. The 2 witnesses are flesh and blood as I said in my post.

Rev 11
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified

Do you think you will see the entire church die in the street of the great city? Do you have anything you can comment on where you don't twist the scripture to make it say what your want?

Choose Wisely said: ↑
The usual twisting of scripture and taking things out of context.

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BABerean2 said:

If you want to think the Two Witnesses are two men made of wood and metal, then go right ahead.

That idea fits perfectly with pretrib logic.
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Commandment to Israel:

Exodus 20:4
Not thou shall make unto thyself an idol/eidwlon #1497, any representation which in heavens from above, and which in land from beneath, and which in waters from beneath to land.

John repeats the same thing to the Christians:

1 John 5:21
Little children, guard/keep yourselves from the idols/eidwlwn <1497>! Amen.

Evidently there were believers who didn't keep the 2nd Commandment and incurred/will incur the wrath [much like the wrath that came upon the Jews in 70ad]

Revelation 9:20
and the rests of the men who not were killed in these blows did not repent out of the works of the hands of them,
that no they should be worshiping the demons and the idols/eidwla <1497> of the gold and the silver and the brass/copper and the stone and the wood,
which neither to be seeing are able, nor to be hearing nor to be walking
[Exodus 20:4/1 John 5:21]

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The ECF's universally taught that the Olivet discourse was fulfilled in Jerusalem's A.D. 70 destruction, while still holding to a future creedal consummation, separate and distinct from the Olivet. The Orthodox Church Hasn't deviated from that position for 1900 years.

The challenge, in fact, is to find even one early Christian that didn't teach the Preterist interpretation of Matthew 24. The earliest and most significant writers were in unanimous agreement, proclaiming the fulfillment of these prophecies in the time of the AD70 destruction of the Jewish city, temple and nation.

Placing the Olivet into our future is a relatively new Protestant novelty that arose less than 200 years ago.

parousia70 said:

The ECF's universally taught that the Olivet discourse was fulfilled in Jerusalem's A.D. 70 destruction, while still holding to a future creedal consummation, separate and distinct from the Olivet. The Orthodox Church Hasn't deviated from that position for 1900 years.

Placing the Olivet into our future is a relatively new Protestant novelty that arose less than 200 years ago.

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It makes zero sense though, that the Olivet discourse only had to do with events in the first century. I tend to think it involves what takes place after the ascension up until the 2nd coming. Not only would that include the first century, it would also include other centuries after that.

DavidPT said:

It makes zero sense though, that the Olivet discourse only had to do with events in the first century.

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It may make zero sense to you, but it makes perfect sense to me, and to every ECF who wrote about it.

As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34)

parousia70 said:

The ECF's universally taught that the Olivet discourse was fulfilled in Jerusalem's A.D. 70 destruction, while still holding to a future creedal consummation, separate and distinct from the Olivet. The Orthodox Church Hasn't deviated from that position for 1900 years.
Placing the Olivet into our future is a relatively new Protestant novelty that arose less than 200 years ago.

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So no Christian Church denominations teaches that Revelation is the same event as the Jerusalem/Temple discourses in the Gospels. I find that incredibly difficult to believe.
Can one believe Revelation chapters 1-19 are fulfilled on 1st century Jerusalem and that the 2nd coming happens after the 1000yr period before the Gog-Magog war? What is that war all about anyway?
This is all very confusing to me.

Choose Wisely said:

Do you have anything you can comment on where you don't twist the scripture to make it say what your want?

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Rev 1:19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

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parousia70 said:

It may make zero sense to you, but it makes perfect sense to me, and to every ECF who wrote about it.

As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34)

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The following is part of the Olivet discourse.

Matthew 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


In verse 46, his lord, is obviously meaning Christ in this context. This shows a personal relationship.

In verse 48, My lord, and in verse 50, The lord of that, is referring to the same lord in verse 46. The unbelieving Jews that got destroyed in 70 AD did not have a personal relationship with Christ, thus weren't His servants. Therefore nothing in verses 45-51 have a single thing to do with the events that occurred in 70 AD.

DavidPT said:

The following is part of the Olivet discourse.

Matthew 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


In verse 46, his lord, is obviously meaning Christ in this context. This shows a personal relationship.

In verse 48, My lord, and in verse 50, The lord of that, is referring to the same lord in verse 46. The unbelieving Jews that got destroyed in 70 AD did not have a personal relationship with Christ, thus weren't His servants. Therefore nothing in verses 45-51 have a single thing to do with the events that occurred in 70 AD.

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Concerning the Olivet Discourse, there is also the matter of the "parousia" mentioned in the Epistles................

Matthew 24:
3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying,
`Tell us! when shall these be? and what the sign of Thy parousiaV <3952>,
and of the together-finish/consummation/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?'

27 for even as the lightning/star-flashes/astraph <796> comes-out from risings, and is appearing till of west,
thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man;

37 For as even the days of the Noah
thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man;

39 and not they know till came the flood and took/lifted all! away.
Thus shall be also the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man.

Just click on these verses below to see where each form of #3952. Fascinating study.....

Greek Inflections of παρουσία
mGNT — 24x in 4 unique form(s) TR — 24x in 4 unique form(s)
παρουσία — 6x
παρουσίᾳ — 9x
παρουσίαν — 3x
παρουσίας — 6x

parousiaV <3952> Mentioned 6 times.
Matthew 24:3;
Philippians 1:26;
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8;
James 5:7
2 Peter 3:4

Parousia <3952> Mentioned 15 times.
Matthew 24:27, 37, 39;
1 Corinthians 15:23, 1 Corinthians 16:17;
2 Corinthians 7:6-7, 2 Corinthians 10:10;
Philippians 2:12;
1 Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13, 5:23;
2 Thessalonians 2:9;
James 5:8,
1 John 2:28

parousian <3952> Mentioned 3 Times
1 Thessalonians 4:15;
2 Peter 1:16;
2 Peter 3:12

1 Thessalonians 3:13
Into the stand-fast of ye the hearts, blameless in together-holiness before the God and Father of us
in the Parousia <3952> of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with all of the holy-ones of Him [Zech 14:5/Revelation 19:11.]
2 Thessalonians 2:
1 - And we ask you brethren, in regard to the parousiaV <3952> of our Lord Jesus Christ and of our gathering together unto Him,
8 - and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit/breath of His mouth,
and shall destroy with the manifestation of His parousiaV <3952>,

James 5:7 -
Be patient then brethren, till the parousiaV <3952> of the Lord;
behold! the husbandman doth expect the precious fruit of the land, being patient for it, till he may receive rain -- early and latter;
James 5:8
be ye patient!, also stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared/hggiken <1448> (5758);

2 Peter 3:4 -
and saying, 'Where is the promise of His parousiaV <3952>?
for since the fathers did fall asleep, all things so remain from the beginning of the creation;'



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DavidPT said:

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

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It's modern futurism that says "My Lord Delayeth His coming", and Jesus calls those who take that position "evil servants."

1 Peter 4:7
And of all things the end hath come nigh/hggiken <1448> (5758)
be sober-minded, then, and watch unto the prayers,

James 5:8
be ye patient!, also stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared/hggiken <1448> (5758);

This is interesting. The exact form of the word #1448 used in 1 Peter 4 and James 5 is also used in Luke 21:20

Luke 21:20 -
“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies,
then know that Her desolation is nigh/hggiken <1448> (5758).

Other verses it occurs:

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)

G1448 ἐγγίζω ἤγγικεν — 12x

Matthew 4:17 -
From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for
the kingdom of heaven is at hand<1448>.”

Mark 1:15 -
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand<1448>.
Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

Luke 10:11 -
‘The very dust of your city which clings to us[fn] we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near<1448> you.’

Romans 13:12
the night did advance, and the day came nigh<1448>;
let us lay aside, therefore, the works of the darkness, and let us put on the armour of the light;



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BABerean2 said:

Rev 1:19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

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Excellent. You were able to post something without twisting it.

So John was instructed to write the things which are. We see John wrote that the seven candlesticks are the seven churches.

John was also instructed to write the things which will take place after this. We see that John writes about things that will take place after this. He writes a about a future event that has not occurred yet.

Rev 11
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

When this future event occurs, during the 1260 days the two olive trees and the two candlesticks will be his two witnesses that prophesy. The church will be gone in the pretrib rapture.

parousia70 said:

It's modern futurism that says "My Lord Delayeth His coming", and Jesus calls those who take that position "evil servants."

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Call it what you like. I call it being on the same page with Jesus, thus grasping what He was meaning.

And since once saved always saved is not Biblical, that obviously has to mean that some professed servants of Christ would be deemed evil. They might be some of the following.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus then explains why, which connects with doing the will of His Father, which they obviously didn't do in this case.

Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

No unbelieving Jew, for example, would be claiming, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Only a professed servant of Christ would claim those things. Matthew 7:26 is some of the reasons why Jesus doesn't know them.

parousia70 said:

It's modern futurism that says "My Lord Delayeth His coming", and Jesus calls those who take that position "evil servants."

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Evil servants huh.........
I'm not sure those that believe in the future coming of Jesus to catch away the believers have anything to be concerned about.....as we are watching and waiting as instructed.

I would be more concerned about following those that practice the forbidding of marriage and command the abstaining from meats. Know any groups that do that?

1 Tim 4
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

The instructions to those that love God are to come out of her my people.

parousia70 said:

The ECF's universally taught that the Olivet discourse was fulfilled in Jerusalem's A.D. 70 destruction, while still holding to a future creedal consummation, separate and distinct from the Olivet. The Orthodox Church Hasn't deviated from that position for 1900 years.

The challenge, in fact, is to find even one early Christian that didn't teach the Preterist interpretation of Matthew 24. The earliest and most significant writers were in unanimous agreement, proclaiming the fulfillment of these prophecies in the time of the AD70 destruction of the Jewish city, temple and nation.

Placing the Olivet into our future is a relatively new Protestant novelty that arose less than 200 years ago.

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Anyone who claims that the ECF's UNIVERSALLY taught ANYTHING, only proves that he knows NOTHING about the writings of the ECF's.

Biblewriter said:

Anyone who claims that the ECF's UNIVERSALLY taught ANYTHING, only proves that he knows NOTHING about the writings of the ECF's.

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Then Find me one ECF who wrote about the Olivet who did NOT teach that Matthew 24 found fulfillment in the first century.

Choose Wisely said:

John was also instructed to write the things which will take place after this. We see that John writes about things that will take place after this. He writes a about a future event that has not occurred yet.

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Rather , John was instructed to write about the things "which are", and the things that were "about to take place" afterward....

Revelation 1:19 YLT (Youngs LITERAL Translation)
19 `Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

Choose Wisely said:

Evil servants huh.........
I'm not sure those that believe in the future coming of Jesus to catch away the believers have anything to be concerned about.....as we are watching and waiting as instructed.

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You are probably right... Just like the millions of Christians who have lived and died in all the generations before ours, watching and waiting from something that was NEVER ordained to take place in their lifetimes, today's Christians watching and waiting will die off one day as well, their misplaced expectations unfulfilled, just like the millions who have gone before them, and will nevertheless make it to heaven and be with Jesus for eternity.

I agree. They should not worry.

I would be more concerned about following those that practice the forbidding of marriage and command the abstaining from meats. Know any groups that do that?

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Yeah, since nothing that we do or don't do (Our Works) can prevent us from or earn us our salvation, I don't worry for them either.

Sin is no longer the measuring stick Ggod uses to determine if a human being is saved or not.. it's faith in Christ Jesus.

Today we are either:
In Adam, doomed to destruction whether we sin or not
or,
We are In Christ, saved even though we sin.

BTW, it's Only sinners who get saved.

Choose Wisely said:

Excellent. You were able to post something without twisting it.

So John was instructed to write the things which are. We see John wrote that the seven candlesticks are the seven churches.

John was also instructed to write the things which will take place after this. We see that John writes about things that will take place after this. He writes a about a future event that has not occurred yet.

Rev 11
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

When this future event occurs, during the 1260 days the two olive trees and the two candlesticks will be his two witnesses that prophesy. The church will be gone in the pretrib rapture.

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Now we can all see...

If you do not ignore the words of Jesus in Revelation 1:20 your pretrib doctrine dies.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

While you are at it, try to ignore those under the blood of the Lamb in the verse below.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

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