2,300 evenings and mornings

DavidPT said:

Speaking of context then, you would have me believe, that what I have underlined below, that this is meaning before the first coming?

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

You're probably wondering---why am I bringing up Daniel 12 when the topic is Daniel 8? Simple----

Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.


When does the text clearly indicate the vision is fulfilled? Does it not indicate it's at the time of the end? Obviously the time of the end in Daniel 8 is referring to the very same time of the end in Daniel 12. If the time of the end in Daniel 8 is referring to a time prior to the first coming, then so must the time of the end mentioned in Daniel 12 be referring to a time prior to the first coming. Thus the reason for my first sentence in this post.

Who then is the one ignoring context here? I don't see how it can be me in this case?


It is silly in my opinion, that the time of the end meant in Daniel 8 would not be the exact same time of the end meant in Daniel 12.

BTW, when is anyone going to actually prove all 6 things I listed in that other post, all of these things fit Antiochus to a tee?

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You are still pulling things OUT OF CONTEXT! Pay close attention to the context:

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

OK, Daniel, WHAT end, or the end of WHAT? Daniel TELLS US!

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

The "end" the angel is talking about is in reference to Grecia and "the indignation" caused by Grecia.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Notice, the latter time of THEIR kingdom - the FOUR kingdoms.. In other words, in the days of Antiochus. After Antiochus, Greece slowly faded away.

Douggg said:

And here is the chart representation of the person... revealed man of sin killed (in Ezekiel 28:1-10) near the bottom of the chart.

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That is a good chart of MYTH. Sorry, but it does not follow scripture, so is only someone's imagination.

Douggg said:

Ezekiel 28:1-10...Prince of Tyre - the revealed man of sin - son of Satan.
Ezekiel 28:12-19 King of Tyre - Satan himself.

Here is the rundown on the person called the Prince of Tyre:

The person will emerge as the leader of the EU, then when Gog/Magog takes place, right afterward he is the prince who shall come, who the Jews will believe he is their messiah.

And he is anointed the illegitimate King of Israel, making him the Antichrist. Who after around 3 years commits the transgression of desolation, revealing himself as the man of sin, ending his role as the Antichrist.

God in Ezekiel 28:1-10 has him killed for the transgression, and in disdain for him brings him back alive in Isaiah 14:19-20 - the strong delusion in 2Thessalonians2:11 God sends to them who believe his lie in the first place.

Come back alive, the person is possessed by the unclean spirit currently in the bottomless pit, making the person as the beast, who rules the world for 42 months; his end coming when Jesus returns (Daniel 7:26-27).

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Imagination.

claninja said:

You are the one claiming that 2 thessalonians 2 refers to Daniel 8, so you should be able to point out as to which verse in Daniel 8 Paul is specifically quoting.

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I am saying that Paul is saying what the transgression of desolation in Daniel 8:13 is by the person who destroys many by peace in
Daniel 8:25, will be.

Antiochus was called the mad-man, Antiochus Epimames, by the Jews, not the prince of peace. It is not Antiochus.

iamlamad said:

That is a good chart of MYTH. Sorry, but it does not follow scripture, so is only someone's imagination.

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iamlamad said:

Imagination.

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Typical.....
That is generally a safe argument when you can't refute another member.....

I don't know much about this topic, so I watch it and hope to learn about it.
You do not help with that by your snide remarks........

https://www.google.com/search?sourc........0....1..gws-wiz.....6..0i131.AwpTGfknwfM
Searches related to 2300 evenings and mornings




.

Douggg said:

I am saying that Paul is saying what the transgression of desolation in Daniel 8:13 is by the person who destroys many by peace in
Daniel 8:25, will be.

Antiochus was called the mad-man, Antiochus Epimames, by the Jews, not the prince of peace. It is not Antiochus.

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You are free to believe as you do, but we know you are pulling those verses in chapter 8 out of context and coming up with error.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Typical.....
That is generally a safe argument when you can't refute another member.....

I don't know much about this topic, so I watch it and hope to learn about it.
You do not help with that by your snide remarks........

https://www.google.com/search?sourc........0....1..gws-wiz.....6..0i131.AwpTGfknwfM
Searches related to 2300 evenings and mornings
.

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He has been refuted ad infinitum. OF COURSE we can refute it, as we have done countless times before. Don't take my word for it: go back and read Daniel 8 and you will discover it is ENTIRELY about Medo Persia first, and then Greece. If you doubt, show us verses you think are NOT about Greece.

Go and read commentaries about it. And also read about the King of Tyre, Ezekiel 28. See if you can find even one commentary that thinks this passage is talking about anything or anyone in Rev. 13.

claninja said:

Interesting to note:

Daniel 7 is quoted in revelation 20
Daniel 7:10 Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened.

Revelation 20:11, 14 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life.

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Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.


Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

In Daniel 7 the text indicates thousand thousands ministered unto him. Ministered---shmash
shem-ash'
(Aramaic) corresponding to the root of 'shemesh' (8121) through the idea of activity implied in day-light; to serve:--minister.


That sounds like the scene during the ascension, as shown in Revelation 5, and not the scene during the great white throne judgment.

According to Revelation 5, the ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, are referring to these---- many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders


Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


I would interpret this to mean---I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake during the 42 months he has been allowed to continue. I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame at the 2nd coming of the Son of man.

The judgment that is set could be referring to the opening of the seals, which also have to do with the trumpets and vials, where this all initially began during the ascension(Daniel 7:13 and Revelation 5:12).

DavidPT said:

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.


Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

In Daniel 7 the text indicates thousand thousands ministered unto him. Ministered---shmash
shem-ash'
(Aramaic) corresponding to the root of 'shemesh' (8121) through the idea of activity implied in day-light; to serve:--minister.


That sounds like the scene during the ascension, as shown in Revelation 5, and not the scene during the great white throne judgment.

According to Revelation 5, the ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, are referring to these---- many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders


Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


I would interpret this to mean---I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake during the 42 months he has been allowed to continue. I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame at the 2nd coming of the Son of man.

The judgment that is set could be referring to the opening of the seals, which also have to do with the trumpets and vials, where this all initially began during the ascension(Daniel 7:13 and Revelation 5:12).

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"sounds like..." "could be referring..."

Does anyone pay any attention to chronology? God has laid out the ORDER of this to come - what comes first, second, third, etc.

Can we determine the WHEN question for Daniel 7?


10 A fiery stream issued And came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated, And the books were opened.

16 I came near to one of those who stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things:

21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

We can discover the "when" in verses 21 and 22. It is AFTER the days of great tribulation that will come in the last half of the 70th week. In Revelation that would be after chapter 16 when the 70th week ends.

Revelation 5, on the other hand, is when Jesus gets the "book" - which in this case is the book delineating the 70th week, and begins to open the seals. In other words, the timing or the "when" of chapter 5 is before the 70th week begins.

In Dan. 7:11, the "beast" is slain, so that tells us the timing is after Jesus comes and around the time of the Battle of Armageddon - Rev. 19.

iamlamad said:

"sounds like..." "could be referring..."

Does anyone pay any attention to chronology? God has laid out the ORDER of this to come - what comes first, second, third, etc.

Can we determine the WHEN question for Daniel 7?


10 A fiery stream issued And came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated, And the books were opened.

16 I came near to one of those who stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things:

21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

We can discover the "when" in verses 21 and 22. It is AFTER the days of great tribulation that will come in the last half of the 70th week. In Revelation that would be after chapter 16 when the 70th week ends.

Revelation 5, on the other hand, is when Jesus gets the "book" - which in this case is the book delineating the 70th week, and begins to open the seals. In other words, the timing or the "when" of chapter 5 is before the 70th week begins.

In Dan. 7:11, the "beast" is slain, so that tells us the timing is after Jesus comes and around the time of the Battle of Armageddon - Rev. 19.

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I see this being plausible as well since this was basically my initial conclusions. I'm still thinking through some of these things, which might mean I test various perspectives in order to try and determine which one might fit the text better. I may eventually go back to my initial conclusions, that being basically what you have concluded above. Still, thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him, sounds strikingly similar to Revelation 5, and that the scene in Revelation 5 appears to involve the ascension and not the great white throne judgment.

DavidPT said:

I see this being plausible as well since this was basically my initial conclusions. I'm still thinking through some of these things, which might mean I test various perspectives in order to try and determine which one might fit the text better. I may eventually go back to my initial conclusions, that being basically what you have concluded above. Still, thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him, sounds strikingly similar to Revelation 5, and that the scene in Revelation 5 appears to involve the ascension and not the great white throne judgment.

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Yes, of course it was His ascension. Perhaps you have not noticed these things - things I had not noticed either until God asked me three questions I could not answer correctly.

1. Notice that in the first part of chapter 4, Jesus was NOT THERE in the throne room, when we have at least a dozen verses telling us He went to be at the right hand of the Father. John saw the Father on the throne, but Jesus was not there.

2. then notice, a search was made for one worthy to take the book and open the seals, but "NO MAN was found..." WHY was Jesus not found in this first search?

3. The Holy Spirit was there in the throne room in chapter 4, as the 7 spirits of God - but Jesus said that as soon as He ascended, He would send Him down. Why they was He there in Chapter 4 instead of sent down? We see Him sent down in chapter 5. God is trying to tell us something in these two chapters. Do you know what it is?

claninja said:

Prior to Antiochus Epiphanes, The Jews lived relatively in safety, as the Seluecids, for the most part, respected the religion of the Jews.



Polybius mentions in his Histories, that Antiochus would often leave court and discuss "technical matters" with goldsmiths and silversmiths. He also mentions that Antiochus would run for public offices and pronounce judgments in lawsuits with "great pains" and "displays of interest". "He did this with such close attention and zeal that all men of refinement were perplexed about him....".



Antiochus Epiphanes did not become King of the seleucids by his own power. King seleucus IV had an heir: Demetrius I. However, Demtrius I was sent to Rome to replace Antiochus Epiphanes as a hostage. Antiochus Epiphanes was then released to Syria. King Seleucus IV was then assassinated by his courtier: Heliodorus. This coup did not last long and Heliodorus was ousted by the king of pergamon. The king of Pergamon then installed Antiochus Epiphanes as king (he was not the heir to the throne).

Daniel 11:21 In his place shall arise a contemptible person to whom royal majesty has not been given



Antiochus thrived and fearfully destroyed the people of Israel. I suggest reading through the books of 1 and 2 Maccabees. He conquered Egypt in his first campaign and expanded the eastern territories of his kingdom.

Daniel 11:24 Without warning he shall come into the richest partse of the province, and he shall do what neither his fathers nor his fathers’ fathers have done, scattering among them plunder, spoil, and goods

1 Maccabees 1:30-31 but he suddenly fell upon the city, dealt it a severe blow, and destroyed many people of Israel. 31 He plundered the city, burned it with fire, and tore down its houses and its surrounding walls. 32 They took captive the women and children, and seized the livestock. 33 Then they fortified the city of David with a great strong wall and strong towers, and it became their citadel.



Antiochus Ephiphanes was a very deceitful king

Daniel 11:21 He shall come in without warning and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Daniel 11:23 from the time that an alliance is made with him he shall act deceitfully, and he shall become strong with a small people.

1 Maccabees 1:30 Deceitfully he spoke peaceable words to them,




Antiochus had coins minted for himself that stated "god manifest"

Antiochus used peaceable words to deceive Israel before attacking them
1 Maccabees 1:30 Deceitfully he spoke peaceable words to them, and they believed him but he suddenly fell upon the city, dealt it a severe blow, and destroyed many people of Israel.



Again, Antiochus had coins minted for himself that stated "god manifest". Anyone who claims to be a "god" is standing against God Himself. Christ is God and existed prior to his first coming in the flesh. To stand against God is to stand against Christ.

Also 2 Maccabees reports that God struck down Antiochus with a sickness. So he was, in fact, broken " without hand"

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Very good post! Thanks!

iamlamad said:

Yes, of course it was His ascension. Perhaps you have not noticed these things - things I had not noticed either until God asked me three questions I could not answer correctly.

1. Notice that in the first part of chapter 4, Jesus was NOT THERE in the throne room, when we have at least a dozen verses telling us He went to be at the right hand of the Father. John saw the Father on the throne, but Jesus was not there.

2. then notice, a search was made for one worthy to take the book and open the seals, but "NO MAN was found..." WHY was Jesus not found in this first search?

3. The Holy Spirit was there in the throne room in chapter 4, as the 7 spirits of God - but Jesus said that as soon as He ascended, He would send Him down. Why they was He there in Chapter 4 instead of sent down? We see Him sent down in chapter 5. God is trying to tell us something in these two chapters. Do you know what it is?

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I haven't really given it much thought, so currently I would be pretty much clueless as to what God is trying to tell us in those 2 chapters.

DavidPT said:

I haven't really given it much thought, so currently I would be pretty much clueless as to what God is trying to tell us in those 2 chapters.

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I will save you the time it took me.

The purpose in chapters 4 & 5 is to establish the context and timing of the first seal. God wanted us to know about the book, and what it contained, but chose to show John the book while it was still being held by Father God. So He began with the vision of the throne room.

The thing is, a vision can be past, present or future or all of the above. When John saw a throne room without Jesus, we much think of timing: WHEN was the throne room without Jesus present? It was during the 32 years He was on earth. Therefore, it seems this part of the vision at least was history to John, a time while Jesus was on the earth.

Next, we see a search for one worthy, but NO MAN was found. This tells us Jesus had not yet risen from the dead, because as soon as He rose from the dead, He WAS found worthy - in chapter 5. So the timing in chapter 4 is before Jesus rose from the dead.

The Holy Spirit was there in chapter 4 for the simple reason: Jesus had not ascended to send Him down.

But time continues, so in chapter 5, things changed. Time passed, and Jesus rose from the dead - and then was found worthy. Shortly after He rose from the dead and was found worthy, He ascended, and John got to see that moment in time - probably just after He told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. We see then in chapter 5, He ascended and immediately the Holy Spirit was sent down.

Back to the purpose: to establish the TIMING of the first seals. What time was it when Jesus ascended? We can guess 32 or 33 AD. All we need is very early church - when Jesus sent them out to make disciples of all nations.

I cannot find 2000 years in any verses there, in chapter 5, or in chapter 6, before we get to the first seal, and that is God's plan: there IS no 2000 years there, for Jesus began opening the seals as soon as He got the book into His hands.

The first seal, then, is the church sent out with the Gospel.
Seals 2, 3, and 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. We see that these three, 2,3,4 ride together, with that one purpose: to stop the gospel. But God limited them in their theater of operation to 1/4 of the earth. Of course they failed, because today the gospel is everywhere - almost. Notice, if we take 1/4 centered on Jerusalem, where the gospel began, it takes in Europe and Africa and the Middle East in between. Where were two world wars fought? Europe. Where have famines been over and over? Africa. Where did the black plague hit twice, both times killing close to 1/3 of the people? Europe.

Then we get to seal 5, the martyrs of the church age. They are told they must wait for the final number - a number God knows - or we could say, that final martyr of the church age.

What will make a certain martyr the last martyr of the church age? Of course, the rapture of the church that will END the church age.

We have been waiting then, between the 5th and 6th seal, for almost 2000 years. The moment after the rapture, it will be the Day of the Lord, or seal 6.

claninja said:

Nice comparison!



I would absolutely agree with you. upon the destruction of the beast/little horn, the saints inherit the kingdom of God at the coming of Christ

Daniel 7:26-27 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away,
to be consumed and destroyed to the end. And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom



Considering I believe the book of revelation is a serious of parallel visions all telling the same story but from different view points, I can definitely agree that Daniel 7 can be referring to revelation 5, but I also believe it refers to revelation 20 as well.

The Throne of God and many standing before Him.
Daniel 7:9-10 His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.

Revelation 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands

revelation 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.

Revelation 20:11-12 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne,

Both Hebrew and Greek words for book can also mean scroll. The Books/scroll is opened
Daniel 7:10 and the books were opened.

Revelation 5:5 Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”

Revelation 20:12 and books were opened.


Judgment from the books/scroll results in judgment/great day of wrath/ and rewarding of saints
Daniel 7:26-27 But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’

Revelation 6:16-17 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us f from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their g wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Revelation 7:14-16 answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.

Revelation 20:14-15 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

revelation 21:27 but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

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Sorry, but Rev. 5 is a different book: it is the book of the 70th week of Daniel. When judgment comes, each person's own book will be opened, and the book of Life.