WHY MANY DON'T BELIEVE JESUS AS SAVIOR?

fat wee robin

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Ephesians 1:4: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

Haven't all who are chosen, chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world?
I don't think so ,or why did Jesus come if it was all decided already .But more than that ,I think God is always acting in His creation or it would be stagnant .I think that like many bible quotes it has been misunderstood according to the predisposition of the person reading it .
If this is the only quote, then it has to be understood ,when humanity is mature enough to understand it fully .
 
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fat wee robin

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God has foreknowledge, He knows what choices will be made, but He does not make the choices for (ie to choose Jesus) The Holy Spirit does woo (draws) a person to Him, but the person makes the final choice ... or not ... and God knows what the choices will be.
It is more than that . God Himself need not choose to know all in advance ,but He has created a situation which controls how far we can go before destroying ourselves ,and leaves us free will to change ,or not ,to surprise Him or not .
 
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eleos1954

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It is more than that . God Himself need not choose to know all in advance ,but He has created a situation which controls how far we can go before destroying ourselves ,and leaves us free will to change ,or not ,to surprise Him or not .

Do you have any scriptures?
 
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Si_monfaith

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I don't think so ,or why did Jesus come if it was all decided already .But more than that ,I think God is always acting in His creation or it would be stagnant .I think that like many bible quotes it has been misunderstood according to the predisposition of the person reading it .
If this is the only quote, then it has to be understood ,when humanity is mature enough to understand it fully .

Why did Jesus come?
1 Peter 1:18-20:
18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Didn't Jesus come because He was chosen before the creation of the world to redeem us on the cross?

Shouldn't we then conclude that the choice of both the Savior and the saved were made before the foundation of the world?
 
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Is faith in Jesus prescriptive or descriptive of believers?

Is faith a condition to be saved or an assurance of being saved seen among the saved?

Hebrews 11:1: "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see."
As above, isn't faith spoken of as an assurance of unseen things like salvation rather than being spoken of as a condition to be saved?
It depends on how you are basing our faith. Just because a person believes they are a Christian doesn't mean that they are saved. Anyone can put on a Christian "badge" and base their faith on their church attendance, pastor's sermons, moral life, religious and Bible knowledge, but these things don't save them.

What saves a person is a genuine conversion to Christ. It is a total transformation of the heart and spirit, and the only way that can happen is a work of the Holy Spirit within the believer - and that has to be sought of God with all the heart. Anyone can "get" the Christian religion, but only Jesus can really convert a person. It is not automatic on making the Christian profession. One has to continue past the starting point and press into God to ensure that the total transformation has taken place.
 
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Is faith in Jesus prescriptive or descriptive of believers?

Is faith a condition to be saved or an assurance of being saved seen among the saved?

Hebrews 11:1: "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see."
As above, isn't faith spoken of as an assurance of unseen things like salvation rather than being spoken of as a condition to be saved?
A person can decide to believe the Gospel, but will remain under the conviction of sin and will fall short of salvation until Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, gives that person saving faith. Saving faith comes along with genuine conversion and is not automatic on "getting religion". God sees the heart of a person, and will give saving faith only to a person who seeks God with all their heart. He will not give saving faith to any old person who wanders up to the front of a church, pray a sinner's prayer and then walk around saying, "I am a Christian now" while still having one foot in the world and retaining their most enjoyable and favourite sins.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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I think people get so tied up in the "General Attributes of God" that it messes up their knowledge of God and their faith. By "General Attributes of God" I mean the "Omni" factors and sovereignty. They carry these concepts into their understanding of God and inevitably these concepts will eventually overrule some of the gospel and faith truths taught us by Jesus Himself. For instance Jesus told us to ask believing we shall receive. Yet those who place sovereignty above the Words of Jesus will deny His words and add to "if it be His will." They fail to see that "ask believing and you will receive" IS the declared will of God. We do not have to verify the words of Jesus to see if they are the will of God. Jesus IS the will of God incarnate. He is the will of God in thought word and deed. If you can believe.... it is yours. The question is not "is it God's will." The question is "can you believe."
 
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fat wee robin

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Why did Jesus come?
1 Peter 1:18-20:
18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Didn't Jesus come because He was chosen before the creation of the world to redeem us on the cross?

Shouldn't we then conclude that the choice of both the Savior and the saved were made before the foundation of the world?
Why did Jesus come?
1 Peter 1:18-20:
18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Didn't Jesus come because He was chosen before the creation of the world to redeem us on the cross?

Shouldn't we then conclude that the choice of both the Savior and the saved were made before the foundation of the world?
Jesus was chosen after Lucifers attack on Heaven to save those who would choose Him . If you Believe the 'creation of the world was 6,000 years ago ,more or less , then we already have a problem .The next one is, that I don't believe that God predestined souls to be 'saved ' as you say ,but left it to our free wills and the timing of the end of all the Ages ,before knowing who would be alive in Him at the end .
 
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now faith

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Jesus was chosen after Lucifers attack on Heaven to save those who would choose Him . If you Believe the 'creation of the world was 6,000 years ago ,more or less , then we already have a problem .The next one is, that I don't believe that God predestined souls to be 'saved ' as you say ,but left it to our free wills and the timing of the end of all the Ages ,before knowing who would be alive in Him at the end .

Jesus was chosen?
Look it's one person or the other but once and for all Christ Jesus is God ,Emanuel God with us.
The Holy Spirit He is God in us .
Any thing less is a presumption against the devine nature of God
Luke 10: 18. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Satan was not the cause of a need for man's salvation
Free Will was the reason Adam fell not because Satan did it Adam chose to disobey.
This is starting to sound like a L.D.S.forum
I will remind you of our rules on debate and teaching.
 
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I think people get so tied up in the "General Attributes of God" that it messes up their knowledge of God and their faith. By "General Attributes of God" I mean the "Omni" factors and sovereignty. They carry these concepts into their understanding of God and inevitably these concepts will eventually overrule some of the gospel and faith truths taught us by Jesus Himself. For instance Jesus told us to ask believing we shall receive. Yet those who place sovereignty above the Words of Jesus will deny His words and add to "if it be His will." They fail to see that "ask believing and you will receive" IS the declared will of God. We do not have to verify the words of Jesus to see if they are the will of God. Jesus IS the will of God incarnate. He is the will of God in thought word and deed. If you can believe.... it is yours. The question is not "is it God's will." The question is "can you believe."
The direct promises of God to us take priority over any mystery decree that God may make in Heaven. This is why we take hold of the promises to us first before considering whether we are elected or not. But we must remember that every promise of God comes with a condition. God promises to blot our sins out, but the condition is that we repent and be converted. But we cannot be converted until we find God on a personal basis, but there is a promise to cover that: If we seek God with all our heart then we will find Him. The promise is that we will find rest for our souls, but the condition is that we come to Jesus. In James, the condition for having genuine religion, or Christian faith is that we be unspotted from the world and that we assist widows and orphans. This tells us that a truly converted Christian will turn away from a Christless world-view, and will do what they can to practically help those in need.
 
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now faith

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The direct promises of God to us take priority over any mystery decree that God may make in Heaven. This is why we take hold of the promises to us first before considering whether we are elected or not. But we must remember that every promise of God comes with a condition. God promises to blot our sins out, but the condition is that we repent and be converted. But we cannot be converted until we find God on a personal basis, but there is a promise to cover that: If we seek God with all our heart then we will find Him. The promise is that we will find rest for our souls, but the condition is that we come to Jesus. In James, the condition for having genuine religion, or Christian faith is that we be unspotted from the world and that we assist widows and orphans. This tells us that a truly converted Christian will turn away from a Christless world-view, and will do what they can to practically help those in need.

A very eloquent teaching, even one of the most magnificent promises of God during Christ's ministry on earth has a condition.

Mark 11: 22. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. 23. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. 25. And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Having Faith in God we believe.
Forgiving others we are forgiven.
 
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I just had the thought that the Scripture: "Repent and be converted, that your sins be blotted out" covers both free will and the work of the Holy Spirit to cover all the bases concerning our salvation.

We use free will to believe the Gospel and repent. In that we accept Jesus as our Saviour. Jesus responds by converting us through the Holy Spirit and the transformation takes place. That is Jesus accepting us after we accept Him. In a sense, that Scripture covers the principles of Arminianism (free choice) and Calvinism (The Holy Spirit giving us saving faith) in the one Scripture. This means that whether a person is Arminian or Calvinist, they can use that Scripture to get themselves saved and maintain their respective theological positions! :)
 
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Si_monfaith

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Jesus was chosen after Lucifers attack on Heaven to save those who would choose Him . If you Believe the 'creation of the world was 6,000 years ago ,more or less , then we already have a problem .The next one is, that I don't believe that God predestined souls to be 'saved ' as you say ,but left it to our free wills and the timing of the end of all the Ages ,before knowing who would be alive in Him at the end .
So you disagree with God's word in Ephesians 1: 4?
 
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Si_monfaith

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A person can decide to believe the Gospel, but will remain under the conviction of sin and will fall short of salvation until Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, gives that person saving faith. Saving faith comes along with genuine conversion and is not automatic on "getting religion". God sees the heart of a person, and will give saving faith only to a person who seeks God with all their heart. He will not give saving faith to any old person who wanders up to the front of a church, pray a sinner's prayer and then walk around saying, "I am a Christian now" while still having one foot in the world and retaining their most enjoyable and favourite sins.
Rather than digress, is faith prescriptive or descriptive?
 
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Si_monfaith

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It depends on how you are basing our faith. Just because a person believes they are a Christian doesn't mean that they are saved. Anyone can put on a Christian "badge" and base their faith on their church attendance, pastor's sermons, moral life, religious and Bible knowledge, but these things don't save them.

What saves a person is a genuine conversion to Christ. It is a total transformation of the heart and spirit, and the only way that can happen is a work of the Holy Spirit within the believer - and that has to be sought of God with all the heart. Anyone can "get" the Christian religion, but only Jesus can really convert a person. It is not automatic on making the Christian profession. One has to continue past the starting point and press into God to ensure that the total transformation has taken place.
Did God choose people to be saved from before the creation as stated in Ephesians 1: 4 or humans chose God?
 
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Si_monfaith

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A very eloquent teaching, even one of the most magnificent promises of God during Christ's ministry on earth has a condition.

Mark 11: 22. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. 23. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. 25. And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Having Faith in God we believe.
Forgiving others we are forgiven.
So you think you produced your faith to believe in Jesus as Savior?

Doesn't the bible say faith is God given? 1 Timothy 1: 14?
 
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Si_monfaith

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Jesus was chosen?
Look it's one person or the other but once and for all Christ Jesus is God ,Emanuel God with us.
The Holy Spirit He is God in us .
Any thing less is a presumption against the devine nature of God
Luke 10: 18. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Satan was not the cause of a need for man's salvation
Free Will was the reason Adam fell not because Satan did it Adam chose to disobey.
This is starting to sound like a L.D.S.forum
I will remind you of our rules on debate and teaching.

1 Peter 1:20: "He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake."

Doesn't God's word say Jesus was chosen?

Are you denying God's word under the cover and label of WOF?

Does claiming that Jesus was chosen amount to a denial of His deity?
 
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Si_monfaith

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I think people get so tied up in the "General Attributes of God" that it messes up their knowledge of God and their faith. By "General Attributes of God" I mean the "Omni" factors and sovereignty. They carry these concepts into their understanding of God and inevitably these concepts will eventually overrule some of the gospel and faith truths taught us by Jesus Himself. For instance Jesus told us to ask believing we shall receive. Yet those who place sovereignty above the Words of Jesus will deny His words and add to "if it be His will." They fail to see that "ask believing and you will receive" IS the declared will of God. We do not have to verify the words of Jesus to see if they are the will of God. Jesus IS the will of God incarnate. He is the will of God in thought word and deed. If you can believe.... it is yours. The question is not "is it God's will." The question is "can you believe."
Did the many Christians who had fallen sick and died hadn't asked with faith for healing?

Do you produce faith in Jesus as Savior or it is a gift of God? 1 timothy 1: 14?
 
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now faith

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I just had the thought that the Scripture: "Repent and be converted, that your sins be blotted out" covers both free will and the work of the Holy Spirit to cover all the bases concerning our salvation.

We use free will to believe the Gospel and repent. In that we accept Jesus as our Saviour. Jesus responds by converting us through the Holy Spirit and the transformation takes place. That is Jesus accepting us after we accept Him. In a sense, that Scripture covers the principles of Arminianism (free choice) and Calvinism (The Holy Spirit giving us saving faith) in the one Scripture. This means that whether a person is Arminian or Calvinist, they can use that Scripture to get themselves saved and maintain their respective theological positions! :)

True but I would wonder if the Calvinest would understand the Spirtual nature of our relationship with God.
But that's another story with a lot of pages...
 
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