How can a Christian be in favor of abortion?

JacksBratt said:

Again, my point was that we all face trials, tests and difficulties in our lives. They are to be dealt with scripturally and with prayer. We will survive and God will be honored in how we do so.

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And, again, there is no comparison between having a bad neighbor and being raped and then becoming pregnant. Why can’t you just admit that your comparison was inappropriate?

↑Iconoclast said;
Who was discussing a woman who needs a hysterectomy?
I was discussing your ungodly view of murdering a baby in the womb.

Zoii said:

ummmm.....u do realise a pregnant woman having her womb removed...that effectively aborts the pregnancy
I just thought you'd appreciate an update on anatomy.

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The Op is not discussing hysterectomies, medical complications or emergencies.
You offer that to divert attention for your pro abortion ideas.
↑
By the way your appeal to extreme absurd reasoning is the mark of a lost position. Abortion is abortion,.
cervical cancer, hysterectomies are a different issue.

[Hmmm...seems you dont understand what it is to abort a pregnancy.]
Yes, I do..watch and learn;
the silent scream video abortion - Yahoo Video Search Results

[Allow me to explain again - maybe keep a pad and pencil handy so you can take notes.]
Before you explain watch the video I posted and maybe you can correct this former murdering Doctor who repented of his foul sin.

[Pregnant women with issues such as cancer and eclampsia (look it up - Im not going to explain the word to you) are examples of conditions that may require pregnancy abortion....so...you wrote it down right?]
Cancer, eclampsia, breech birth, ectopic pregnancies are not the focus of the OP.
Bot ceretainly an intellectual such as your self could read with comprehension.

Good news, copies of this book are still available;
https://www.amazon.com/Abortion-Open-Your-Mouth-Dumb/dp/1848710542

In the wide range of contemporary moral debate the abortion question occupies a central place. To the majority of people today the termination of an unwanted pregnancy is regarded as a woman's unquestionable right. But can this right ever take precedence over the unborn's right to life? In this revised and updated booklet Peter Barnes argues for the biblical teaching that the unborn baby is in God's image and so protected by the sixth commandment. He exhorts us to open our mouth for the dumb (Proverbs 31:8).

Archivist said:

And, again, there is no comparison between having a bad neighbor and being raped and then becoming pregnant. Why can’t you just admit that your comparison was inappropriate?

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Ok, OK... so the bad neighbor, to you, was not a problematic enough example to include in the list of things that I selected as trials that someone may face, in their life, that they will have no control over....

Stop dwelling on ONE of the examples that I gave and try to understand that I was just trying to point out that, in our lives... we will face unfortunate, harsh, hurtful, and stressful events...
However, these are allowed by God and are for our benefit, strengthening and, in the end, will be for His glory and the perpetuation of His work on this earth.

They are not things that we should eliminate from our lives by committing crimes, killing, or what ever, to try to remove the experience from our lives.

We should, actually, thank God for these things and pray for His guidance in how to deal with them and the strength to overcome.

JacksBratt said:

Ok, OK... so the bad neighbor, to you, was not a problematic enough example to include in the list of things that I selected as trials that someone may face, in their life, that they will have no control over....

Stop dwelling on ONE of the examples that I gave and try to understand that I was just trying to point out that, in our lives... we will face unfortunate, harsh, hurtful, and stressful events...
However, these are allowed by God and are for our benefit, strengthening and, in the end, will be for His glory and the perpetuation of His work on this earth.

They are not things that we should eliminate from our lives by committing crimes, killing, or what ever, to try to remove the experience from our lives.

We should, actually, thank God for these things and pray for His guidance in how to deal with them and the strength to overcome.

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You just keep on putting your foot in your mouth when it comes to the experience of rape and trying to make all of these inadequate comparisons. Just...stop...please.

You have absolutely no idea what it's like for someone else until you are walking in their shoes, and to advise that they should be thankful, etc. comes off as being patronizing at best.

It's also a reason why many people, including Christians, do not believe it is a good idea for politics or religion to decide on medical issues regardless of what they may morally believe. Two different things.

JacksBratt said:

Ok, OK... so the bad neighbor, to you, was not a problematic enough example to include in the list of things that I selected as trials that someone may face, in their life, that they will have no control over....

Stop dwelling on ONE of the examples that I gave and try to understand that I was just trying to point out that, in our lives... we will face unfortunate, harsh, hurtful, and stressful events...
However, these are allowed by God and are for our benefit, strengthening and, in the end, will be for His glory and the perpetuation of His work on this earth.

They are not things that we should eliminate from our lives by committing crimes, killing, or what ever, to try to remove the experience from our lives.

We should, actually, thank God for these things and pray for His guidance in how to deal with them and the strength to overcome.

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First, you made a comparison of having a bad neighbor vs. rape, a violent crime. There is no comparison. Why can’t you just admit that you were wrong in making such a comparison?

We should be thankful when these things happen? Should a rape victim say “Gee God, thank you so much for that man raping me—I know I will learn from it.” Trust me, when I was rushed to the ICU with under 20% heart function, thankful was not one of the emotions I felt. Fear, yes. Anxiety, yes. I was later thankful for all the prayers and kind thoughts I received—a Wiccan friend even had her coven praying for me—and thankful that God answered all those prayers, but I certainly was not thankful for the virus that hit my heart.

ICONO'CLAST said:

↑Iconoclast said;
Who was discussing a woman who needs a hysterectomy?
I was discussing your ungodly view of murdering a baby in the womb.


The Op is not discussing hysterectomies, medical complications or emergencies.
You offer that to divert attention for your pro abortion ideas.
↑
By the way your appeal to extreme absurd reasoning is the mark of a lost position. Abortion is abortion,.
cervical cancer, hysterectomies are a different issue.

[Hmmm...seems you dont understand what it is to abort a pregnancy.]
Yes, I do..watch and learn;
the silent scream video abortion - Yahoo Video Search Results

[Allow me to explain again - maybe keep a pad and pencil handy so you can take notes.]
Before you explain watch the video I posted and maybe you can correct this former murdering Doctor who repented of his foul sin.

[Pregnant women with issues such as cancer and eclampsia (look it up - Im not going to explain the word to you) are examples of conditions that may require pregnancy abortion....so...you wrote it down right?]
Cancer, eclampsia, breech birth, ectopic pregnancies are not the focus of the OP.
Bot ceretainly an intellectual such as your self could read with comprehension.

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So it seems you agree - If you have a medical or psychiatric condition that requires termination of pregnancy to protect the health of the mother, then that is acceptable.

bekkilyn said:

You just keep on putting your foot in your mouth when it comes to the experience of rape and trying to make all of these inadequate comparisons. Just...stop...please.

You have absolutely no idea what it's like for someone else until you are walking in their shoes, and to advise that they should be thankful, etc. comes off as being patronizing at best.

It's also a reason why many people, including Christians, do not believe it is a good idea for politics or religion to decide on medical issues regardless of what they may morally believe. Two different things.

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I don't know if you have ever been raped.

You don't know if I have..... or what I have experienced.

We know nothing of each other or the trials that this life has placed upon us.. under the divine will of our savior.

However... I think... no offense intended... that it is nothing short of arrogant and selfish...... to EVER assume that your pain is the greatest pain. That what has happened to you is the worst thing that can happen to anyone... ...AND.. that this pain, that surpasses all other pain of all other humans....... gives license to KILL an unborn baby.

JacksBratt said:

I don't know if you have ever been raped.

You don't know if I have..... or what I have experienced.

We know nothing of each other or the trials that this life has placed upon us.. under the divine will of our savior.

However... I think... no offense intended... that it is nothing short of arrogant and selfish...... to EVER assume that your pain is the greatest pain. That what has happened to you is the worst thing that can happen to anyone... ...AND.. that this pain, that surpasses all other pain of all other humans....... gives license to KILL an unborn baby.

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I don’t think she ever made such a claim. But getting raped and becoming pregnant as a result is certainly worse than having a bad neighbor.

Archivist said:

First, you made a comparison of having a bad neighbor vs. rape, a violent crime. There is no comparison. Why can’t you just admit that you were wrong in making such a comparison?

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This was not enough?

JacksBratt said:

Ok, OK... so the bad neighbor, to you, was not a problematic enough example to include in the list of things that I selected as trials that someone may face, in their life, that they will have no control over...

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It was not meant to be a "good comparison". It was meant to be included in a list of varying degrees of complications of life.

Archivist said:

We should be thankful when these things happen? Should a rape victim say “Gee God, thank you so much for that man raping me—I know I will learn from it.”

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Well, gee.... I guess we should just ignore this:

1 Thessalonians 5:18 King James Version (KJV)

18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

We should read what Christ taught and only agree with what suits us?

You could be thankful that they didn't kill you... bury you alive... or any other list of things that could have happened...

I did not write the scriptures... they were written by men as God inspired them. They are God's words... not mine.

Archivist said:

Trust me, when I was rushed to the ICU with under 20% heart function, thankful was not one of the emotions I felt. Fear, yes. Anxiety, yes. I was later thankful for all the prayers and kind thoughts I received

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And, thankful that God spared your life?

Archivist said:

—a Wiccan friend even had her coven praying for me—

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Oh, that's comforting!!!! a worshiper of Satan, praying for you... gotta love that. Just who were they praying to?

Archivist said:

and thankful that God answered all those prayers, but I certainly was not thankful for the virus that hit my heart.

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It is hard, as humans, to understand the methods of our Savior and our God.

However, we are told to be thankful for all things. When we get to heaven, we will learn of all the things in our life, good, bad and totally awful, and we will understand why they happened to us.. and..... why they happened WHEN they happened.

What ever happened to you, was in God's plan for you. Maybe the prayers that were prayed over you were observed by a person who was in a season of doubt... yet watched the prayers being answered and is now a believer in Christ.

Maybe it happened to you instead of someone else who would have succumbed to the virus and died...

It is not for us to judge what happens to us... it is ours to embrace the road that God has placed us on, make decisions that bring glory to His name and grow from every event.

Archivist said:

I don’t think she ever made such a claim. But getting raped and becoming pregnant as a result is certainly worse than having a bad neighbor.

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Agreed.

JacksBratt said:

This was not enough?

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No. If you hadn’t added the words “to you” it would have been

It was not meant to be a "good comparison". It was meant to be included in a list of varying degrees of complications of life.

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That isn’t how I read it, and I apparently wasn’t the only one to read it that way.

Well, gee.... I guess we should just ignore this:

1 Thessalonians 5:18 King James Version (KJV)

18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

We should read what Christ taught and only agree with what suits us?

Click to expand...

So you would be thankful if your wife tells you that she has cancer or was raped? I don’t think so. Now if she beat the cancer or recovered from injuries sustained during the rape then thanks would be appropriate.

You could be thankful that they didn't kill you... bury you alive... or any other list of things that could have happened...

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Read what I wrote. I said I was not thankful that a virus hit my heart. My post says that I was thankful that God answered the prayers for healing.

I did not write the scriptures... they were written by men as God inspired them. They are God's words... not mine.

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I didn’t say that you did write the scriptures.

And, thankful that God spared your life?

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I think I already said that.

Oh, that's comforting!!!! a worshiper of Satan, praying for you... gotta love that. Just who were they praying to?

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Actually Wiccans don’t believe that Satan exists. I was just thankful that so many people were praying for my recovery. The vast majority were Christians, but there were people of many faiths who were offering prayers.

When you are sick, do you tell people that they shouldn’t pray for your recovery if they aren’t Christian?

It is hard, as humans, to understand the methods of our Savior and our God.

However, we are told to be thankful for all things. When we get to heaven, we will learn of all the things in our life, good, bad and totally awful, and we will understand why they happened to us.. and..... why they happened WHEN they happened.

What ever happened to you, was in God's plan for you. Maybe the prayers that were prayed over you were observed by a person who was in a season of doubt... yet watched the prayers being answered and is now a believer in Christ.

Maybe it happened to you instead of someone else who would have succumbed to the virus and died...

It is not for us to judge what happens to us... it is ours to embrace the road that God has placed us on, make decisions that bring glory to His name and grow from every event.

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Again, if your wife tells you that she has cancer, will you thank Gid that she has it? I would pray to God for her recovery, but I wouldn’t thank God that she has cancer.

JacksBratt said:

Agreed.

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Thank you for finally admitting that they are not the same.

This has gotten way off topic so I am out of here.

Once again, no one in this thread has said that they are in favor of abortion. Abortion is a terrible thing. But saying that it should be a legal option is different than saying that one is “in favor” of it.

ICONO'CLAST said:

Can you show where God says a baby has to breathe outside the womb before it is alive? or what scripture shows a consistency in Jewish thought?
I go with this;psa.51
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

psalm139:13 For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

The jewish psalmist did not share your view....God knows each and every person from womb to tomb

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I had said that I was getting out of this thread, but then realized that I never replied to this post. My apologies. One last post so that I can answer your question.

The best-known answer is from Genesis, specifically Genesis 2:7: “Then the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” There are, of course, other Biblical references linking breath and life: Acts 17:25, Job 33:4, Isaiah 42:5, Ezekiel 37:9-10 among them.

The majority of Jews do not believe that life begins at conception but instead see the creation of life as something that happens over time. During this process, the fetus is seen as part of the mother, and her well-being, both immediate and future, takes precedence.

Archivist said:

I had said that I was getting out of this thread, but then realized that I never replied to this post. My apologies. One last post so that I can answer your question.

The best-known answer is from Genesis, specifically Genesis 2:7: “Then the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” There are, of course, other Biblical references linking breath and life: Acts 17:25, Job 33:4, Isaiah 42:5, Ezekiel 37:9-10 among them.

The majority of Jews do not believe that life begins at conception but instead see the creation of life as something that happens over time. During this process, the fetus is seen as part of the mother, and her well-being, both immediate and future, takes precedence.

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Thank you for your response. I would just say that the majority of Jews are in unbelief not having the indwelling Spirit.
Without the Spirit.....they will not come to truth.

Archivist said:

Abortion is a terrible thing. But saying that it should be a legal option is different than saying that one is “in favor” of it.

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I think that, in the times where ending a pregnancy for reasons that are inescapable for the saving of the life of the mother... it is not what I consider an abortion...

It is then a medical procedure that has been deemed morally and medically ethical as a last ditch effort to save the mother.

Abortions, for the sake of "legal or not legal" arguments.... are when a mother, who is perfectly healthy and will live just fine if the pregnancy is taken to term.... kills the innocent life that is growing inside her.

Archivist said:

That isn’t how I read it, and I apparently wasn’t the only one to read it that way.

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Well, that is the problem with written text.... it can be, and is, misinterpreted.... often.

Archivist said:

So you would be thankful if your wife tells you that she has cancer or was raped? I don’t think so. Now if she beat the cancer or recovered from injuries sustained during the rape then thanks would be appropriate.

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You can twist it all you want. The scripture is clear... We are to be thankful for whatever we face.. for what we learn from it.... for who is affected by it.... for the observable working of God's hand in it... whatever..
It will be for His glory and is happening under His approval for the trials of your life.

I don't think anyone is thankful for getting cancer... or raped.....but... the scripture says that we are supposed to be. Does it not?

I think, as humans, it is probably impossible to follow this scripture the way that Christ would have Himself... Did He not embrace the cross? I don't think any human can do this... but He did and we are to follow His example.

Archivist said:

Read what I wrote. I said I was not thankful that a virus hit my heart. My post says that I was thankful that God answered the prayers for healing.

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I understand.. are you aware of all the people that were affected by being aware of the examples that these answered prayers presented? No, of course not. Without the virus... none of this was possible.

Archivist said:

Actually Wiccans don’t believe that Satan exists. I was just thankful that so many people were praying for my recovery. The vast majority were Christians, but there were people of many faiths who were offering prayers.

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Really? They don't? I think you should read up on this.... You can only serve God... or Satan.... Wiccans do not serve God. Maybe you could explain to them the deception of Satan and the worship that happens in a Wicca.

Archivist said:

When you are sick, do you tell people that they shouldn’t pray for your recovery if they aren’t Christian?

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I have had atheists tell me not to bother praying for them... due to their atheist views. I am not offended by this.. so....

If someone presented to me that they were of a Wiccan... or Pagan... I would tell them that I believe in Christ and that I would rather that they did not pray to their god for me.
I want NO permission given to any of Satan's forces to be called on, for my behalf.

Archivist said:

Again, if your wife tells you that she has cancer, will you thank Gid that she has it? I would pray to God for her recovery, but I wouldn’t thank God that she has cancer.

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Totally understandable...

That would be my first request as well. However, it is appointed unto man... once to die. If my wife's cancer lead to souls being saved... or some other glorification of God... who am I to judge God.

If my wife did get cancer, and my cell group all got together and said a prayer of thanks for the cancer and to open our eyes to how this can bring glory to His name.... Do you think that we would be acting according to scripture?

God expects us to pray for our every need, want and desire. He wants us to talk to Him like a father...

Of course we would pray for healing.. followed, as always, by "if it be your will".

bekkilyn said:

It's not that Christians are in favor of abortion per se, but that many Christians believe that keeping the procedure safe and legal not only helps to reduce abortions, but saves more lives in general and therefore could be considered as a broader pro-life position as both quantity *and* quality of life is considered. It's difficult to consider "make all abortions illegal" a pro-life position when a greater number of people would be dying as a result of it, and life for many people who are already born is miserable and impoverished.

Christians are going to need to decide if their goal is simply to just punish people who get abortions or if they really want to actually reduce them. If the goal is the latter, then simply making them illegal is not the answer to this problem.

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Sorry, but this seems a rather untenable position. If a Christian knows abortion to be morally wrong this pragmatic argument associated with its proliferation is rather weak. In your formulation, a Christian would be pro-abortion because they would deem the practical alternative (back alley abortions, a greater number of miserable lives) to be worse. As I understand the pro-life position, the quality of 'having life' succeeds its environmental misery (that is even being an unwanted child is better than not being one - especially since that child is beloved by God and an individual for whom Christ has died!). Also, making abortion limited or outlawed would save lives and discourage the practice. After all, you wouldn't suggest that we make murder legal in order to prevent the proliferation of illegal murders.

Falconeye said:

Sorry, but this seems a rather untenable position. If a Christian knows abortion to be morally wrong this pragmatic argument associated with its proliferation is rather weak. In your formulation, a Christian would be pro-abortion because they would deem the practical alternative (back alley abortions, a greater number of miserable lives) to be worse. As I understand the pro-life position, the quality of 'having life' succeeds its environmental misery (that is even being an unwanted child is better than not being one - especially since that child is beloved by God and an individual for whom Christ has died!). Also, making abortion limited or outlawed would save lives and discourage the practice. After all, you wouldn't suggest that we make murder legal in order to prevent the proliferation of illegal murders.

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Again, Christians are going to have to decide if their goal is to punish women for abortions OR to actually reduce abortions. It's been shown time and time again that making abortions illegal INCREASES the occurrence of abortions with MORE lives lost. Just because you want outlawing abortion to save more lives doesn't make it true in actuality because it does not in any way discourage the practice as has been shown in the real vs. the theoretical world that many pro-birth people seem to be living in. (Pro-life is reserved for those who are actually concerned about ALL life, including the lives of those who are born.)

Born people aren't using the unwilling bodies of other people in order to live, so there is no comparison between abortion and what may happen between two born people who live independently of each other.

No one here in this thread has claimed to be pro-abortion. It's a matter of who has legal choice in the matter...the people actually involved in the medical decision, or the government making medical choices for us.