Nazi Hatred Of Jews Fueled by Long Tradtion of Christian Antisemitism And Neopaganism

The Gryphon

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I am saying much of Nazi anti-Semitism was based upon Christian Anti-Semitism that had been well established over the centuries and never disavowed or shut down by many of the Christian churches. I have even herd it justified on this very forum. All I am saying is there is plenty of room for repentance even today within modern Christian churchs.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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True Christians don't persecuted anyone. But true Christians are persecuted by everyone of the world. True Christians love all people. True Christians are hated by all people of the world.

So no, Christians do not have a long tradition of antisemitism.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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All I am saying is there is plenty of room for repentance even today within modern Christian churchs.

Does everyone everywhere have to repent for the sins of their people? I think we ought stick to our own sins.
 
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Dave L

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Scripture teaches only one race, the human race.

“Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;” (Acts 17:25–26) (KJV 1900)

So are we racist when we think different races exist? And we are antisemitic if we think Semites exist and are a unique group distinct from the human race?
 
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The Gryphon

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True Christians don't persecuted anyone. But true Christians are persecuted by everyone of the world. True Christians love all people. True Christians are hated by all people of the world.

So no, Christians do not have a long tradition of antisemitism.

Your list of non-true Christians must be rather long considering the historical record of many of the Church Denomination when it comes to their active persecution of Jews throughout their historical records.
 
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The Gryphon

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Does everyone everywhere have to repent for the sins of their people? I think we ought stick to our own sins.

I think there is plenty of room to look around today to see active Jew hatred as well as active anti-Semitism being practiced by modern day churches for those will to see it.
Click any of the headings below to view them:
1. Nazi Hatred Of Jews Fueled by Long Tradtion of Christian Antisemitism And Neopaganism
2 .Anti-Semitism in the 21st Century | My Jewish Learning
3. On Modern Anti-Semitism, Christian Silence Is Complicity
4.Antisemitism Is Still a Serious Problem in Churches - https://www.algemeiner.com/2018/10/03/antisemitism-is-still-a-serious-problem-in-churches/
5. Modern ‘Nazi salute’ sweeping Europe
 
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The Gryphon

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Just another excuse to kick about something.

Galatians 6:2 ESV
Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

Matthew 25:35 ESV
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,

Genesis 4:8-10 ESV
Cain spoke to Abel his brother. And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel and killed him. Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?” He said, “I do not know; am I my brother's keeper?” And the Lord said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground.

Ephesians 6:12 ESV
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

1 Peter 3:8 ESV
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.

Galatians 5:13 ESV
For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

Matthew 7:1-10 ESV
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. ...

Colossians 3:9-10 ESV
Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

Ephesians 4:32 ESV
Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Galatians 6:1-2 ESV
Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

1 Corinthians 13:1-13 ESV
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; ...

Revelation 1:1-20 ESV
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near. John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood …

Romans11
 
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The Gryphon

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Christians did persecute Jews throughout history but never to the level of systematically exterminating them. There were pogroms, there were expulsions, there were great massacres of Jewish towns but they all pale in comparison to the atrocities of secular WW2.

You mentioned the inquisition which didn't seek to find Jews in of themselves but sought to find those Jews who pretended to be Christians when in reality they were not. The conversos were, to be sure, were badly discriminated against and this isn't to justify the expulsion of the Jews by the Spanish crown, but it is simply not on the same level of carnage and cruelty that Nazi Germany displayed.

Christians, even if they hated the Jews, could not deny their humanity, could not suggest without implicating the Apostles, Christ and all the biblical Patriarchs that all Jews everywhere must be killed without exception, experimented on, tortured and deprived of even the most basic joys.

So I don't buy your line of Nazi antisemitism being more or less the same as Christian Antisemitism. The Nazi unlike the Christian is not constrained by his religion in treatment of Jews. The Christian even if he hates certain people must remember Christ called them all. Who truly represented Christianity, Bonhoeffer or Hitler?

AD115 In his Epistle to the Magnesians, Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, argued that any form of Judaism is incompatible with belief in Jesus as Messiah. How does that compare with what Jesus Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 11 quoted below.

Romans 11 - New International Version

1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me” a ? 4And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” b 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

7What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,

eyes that could not see

and ears that could not hear,

to this very day.” c

9And David says:

“May their table become a snare and a trap,

a stumbling block and a retribution for them.

10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,

and their backs be bent forever.” d

Ingrafted Branches

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

All Israel Will Be Saved

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26and in this way e all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;

he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

27And this is f my covenant with them

when I take away their sins.” g

28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now h receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Doxology

33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and i knowledge of God!

How unsearchable his judgments,

and his paths beyond tracing out!

34“Who has known the mind of the Lord?

Or who has been his counselor?” j

35“Who has ever given to God,

that God should repay them?” k

36For from him and through him and for him are all things.

To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Footnotes:
a 3 1 Kings 19:10,14
b 4 1 Kings 19:18
c 8 Deut. 29:4; Isaiah 29:10
d 10 Psalm 69:22,23
e 26 Or and so
f 27 Or will be
g 27 Isaiah 59:20,21; 27:9 (see Septuagint); Jer. 31:33,34
h 31 Some manuscripts do not have now.
i 33 Or riches and the wisdom and the
j 34 Isaiah 40:13
k 35 Job 41:11
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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Your list of non-true Christians must be rather long considering the historical record of many of the Church Denomination when it comes to their active persecution of Jews throughout their historical records.
The Apostles, and everyone who truly preached and practiced what the word of God says. That would be the list of true Christians with pure doctrine(that is an important clarification I forgot to put in my first response, so I apologize for that). Every other type of Christian is either twisting the word of God, misinformed, or just uniformed of the truth. Anyone who fits into the misinformed or uninformed category is saved by faith so long as they believed the form of Doctrine delivered unto them.

If any denomination does that which is contrary to the word of God, then their actions are not a true reflection of God's will/Christian traditions.
 
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The Gryphon

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The Apostles, and everyone who truly preached and practiced what the word of God says. That would be the list of true Christians with pure doctrine(that is an important clarification I forgot to put in my first response, so I apologize for that). Every other type of Christian is either twisting the word of God, misinformed, or just uniformed of the truth. Anyone who fits into the misinformed or uninformed category is saved by faith so long as they believed the form of Doctrine delivered unto them.

If any denomination does that which is contrary to the word of God, then their actions are not a true reflection of God's will/Christian traditions.

Your description covers a large number of modern "Christian Churches" many of which are described in the book of Revelation in my humble opinion.
 
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The Gryphon

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The Seven Churches of Revelation were real Churches however they are also prophetic in nature. The book of Revelation opens with seven letters to seven churches. Each of the seven letters is a prophetic word from Jesus, through the Spirit, who is inspiring John to write.

1. Ephesus (Revelation 2:1-7):
The letter to Ephesus warns against false teachers and evil in the world and admonishes for having forsaken their first love. Backsliding.

2. Smyrna (Revelation 2:8-11):
The Church that understands persecution.

3. Pergamum (Revelation 2:12-17):
The Church that needs to repent and return to G_d.

4. Thyatira (Revelation 2:18-29):
The Church with the false prophetess that needs to hold fast to the Word and teachings of Jesus.

5. Sardis (Revelation 3:1-6):
A "dead church" that needs to wake up and serve the will of G_d.

6. Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7-13):
Jesus assures them He is Coming and to hold fast that no one tries to steal their crowns.

7. Laodicea (Revelation 3:14-22):

Jesus thus finds the church in Laodicea to be other than what he desires (cf. Isa. 5:2–6). In today’s English, he is telling the self-satisfied church in Laodicea: I want water that will refresh me, but you remind me instead of the water everyone always complains about and spews out of their mouths.

We see all these same type of Churches in existence today!

It is also one of the reasons I am constantly warning those that call themselves Christians to read, study, and understand why the Apostle Paul wrote Romans 11 as a WARNING to fellow believers.

I would refer you to Mathew Henry's Commentary of Romans 11:
Click to view> Romans 11 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)
 

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Ignatius the Kiwi

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AD115 In his Epistle to the Magnesians, Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, argued that any form of Judaism is incompatible with belief in Jesus as Messiah. How does that compare with what Jesus Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 11 quoted below.

Romans 11 - New International Version

1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me” a ? 4And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” b 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

7What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,

eyes that could not see

and ears that could not hear,

to this very day.” c

9And David says:

“May their table become a snare and a trap,

a stumbling block and a retribution for them.

10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,

and their backs be bent forever.” d

Ingrafted Branches

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

All Israel Will Be Saved

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26and in this way e all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;

he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

27And this is f my covenant with them

when I take away their sins.” g

28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now h receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Doxology

33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and i knowledge of God!

How unsearchable his judgments,

and his paths beyond tracing out!

34“Who has known the mind of the Lord?

Or who has been his counselor?” j

35“Who has ever given to God,

that God should repay them?” k

36For from him and through him and for him are all things.

To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Footnotes:
a 3 1 Kings 19:10,14
b 4 1 Kings 19:18
c 8 Deut. 29:4; Isaiah 29:10
d 10 Psalm 69:22,23
e 26 Or and so
f 27 Or will be
g 27 Isaiah 59:20,21; 27:9 (see Septuagint); Jer. 31:33,34
h 31 Some manuscripts do not have now.
i 33 Or riches and the wisdom and the
j 34 Isaiah 40:13
k 35 Job 41:11

I don't want to be quoted entire bible verses, I want to have an actual conversation. You have characterised an early Christian Saint in such a way as to accomplish what exactly? That by his distinguishing of Jews from Christians that he is akin to what exactly? That he was what exactly? How does this back up your claim of Christian anti-semitism being exactly like Nazi-Antisemitism?

What do you do with Jewish writers like Melito of Sardis? He speaks of the Jews quite negatively, does he hate them? What do you do when the New Testamaent itself says that the Jews present said the blood of Christ was on their hands and on their children? Is anything critical of Judaism evidence of antisemitism?

What exactly are you arguing. Don't quote and paste, give me your own perspective.
 
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The Gryphon

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Part 1
Chapter 11

The apostle, having reconciled that great truth of the rejection of the Jews with the promise made unto the fathers, is, in this chapter, further labouring to mollify the harshness of it, and to reconcile it to the divine goodness in general. It might be said, "Hath God then cast away his people?’’ The apostles therefore sets himself, in this chapter, to make a reply to this objection, and that two ways:— I. He shows at large what the mercy is that is mixed with this wrath (v. 1endash 32). II. He infers thence the infinite wisdom and sovereignty of God, with the adoration of which he concludes this chapter and subject (v. 33endash 36).

The apostle, having reconciled that great truth of the rejection of the Jews with the promise made unto the fathers, is, in this chapter, further labouring to mollify the harshness of it, and to reconcile it to the divine goodness in general. It might be said, "Hath God then cast away his people?’’ The apostles therefore sets himself, in this chapter, to make a reply to this objection, and that two ways:— I. He shows at large what the mercy is that is mixed with this wrath (v. 1endash 32). II. He infers thence the infinite wisdom and sovereignty of God, with the adoration of which he concludes this chapter and subject (v. 33endash 36).

Verses 6-21 The apostle proposes here a plausible objection, which might be urged against the divine conduct in casting off the Jewish nation (v. 1): "Hath God cast away his people? Is the rejection total and final? Are they all abandoned to wrath and ruin, and that eternal? Is the extent of the sentence so large as to be without reserve, or the continuance of it so long as to be without repeal? Will he have no more a peculiar people to himself?’’ In opposition to this, he shows that there was a great deal of goodness and mercy expressed along with this seeming severity, particularly he insists upon three things:—1. That, though some of the Jews were cast off, yet they were not all so. 2, . That, though the body of the Jews were cast off, yet the Gentiles were taken in. And, 3. That, though the Jews were cast off at present, yet in God’s due time they should be taken into his church again.I. The Jews, it is true, were many of them cast off, but not all. The supposition of this he introduces with a God forbid. He will by no means endure such a suggestions. God had made a distinction between some of them and others.1. There was a chosen remnant of believing Jews, that obtained righteousness and life by faith in Jesus Christ, v. 1endash 7. These are said to be such as he foreknew (v. 2), that is, had thoughts of love to, before the world was; for whom he thus foreknew he did predestinate. her lies the ground of the difference. They are called the election (v. 7), that is, the elect, God’s chosen ones, whom he calls the election, because that which first distinguished them from the dignified them above others was God’s electing love. Believers are the election, all those and those only whom God hath chosen. Now,(1.) He shows that he himself was one of them: For I also am an Israelite; as if he had said, "Should I say that all the Jews are rejected, I should cut off my own claims, and see myself abandoned.’’ Paul was a chosen vessel (Acts. 9:15 ), and yet he was of the seed of Abraham, and particularly of the tribe of Benjamin, the least and youngest of all the tribes of Israel.(2.) He suggests that as in Elias’s time, so now, this chosen remnant was really more and greater than one would think it was, which intimates likewise that it is no new nor unusual thing for God’s grace and favour to Israel to be limited and confined to a remnant of that people; for so it was in Elijah’s time. The scripture saith it of Elias, en Eliain the story of Elias, the great reformer of the Old Testament. Observe, [1.] His mistake concerning Israel; as if their apostasy in the days of Ahab was so general that he himself was the only faithful servant God had in the world. He refers to 1 Ki. 19:14 , where (it is here said) he maketh intercession to God against Israel. A strange kind of intercession: entynchanei to Theo kata tou IsraelHe deals with God against Israel; so it may be read; so entynchano is translated, Acts. 25:24 . The Jews enetychon moihave dealt with me. In prayer we deal with God, commune with him, discourse with him: it is said of Elijah (Jam. 5:17 ) that he prayed in praying. We are then likely to pray in praying, to make a business of that duty, when we pray as those that are dealing with God in the duty. Now Elijah in this prayer spoke as if there were one left faithful in Israel but himself. See to what a low ebb the profession of religion may sometimes be brought, and how much the face of it may be eclipsed, that the most wise and observing men may give it up for gone. So it was in Elijah’s time. That which makes the show of a nation is the powers and the multitude. The powers of Israel were then persecuting powers: They have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars, and they seek my life. The multitude of Israel were then idolatrous: I am left alone. Thus those few that were faithful to God were not only lost in the crowd of idolaters, but crushed and driven into corners by the rage of persecutors. When the wicked rise, a man is hidden, Prov. 28:12 .—Digged down thine altars; not only neglected them, and let them go out of repair, but digged them down. When altars were set up for Baal, it is no wonder if God’s altars were pulled down; they could not endure that standing testimony against their idolatry. This was his intercession against Israel; as if he had said, "Lord, is not this a people ripe for ruin, worthy to be cast off? What else canst thou do for thy great name?’’ It is a very sad thing for any person or people to have the prayers of God’s people against them, especially of God’s prophets, for God espouses, and sooner or later will visibly own, the cause of his praying people. [2.] The rectifying of this mistake by the answer of God (v. 4): I have reserved. Note, First, Things are often much better with the church of God than wise and good men think they are. They are ready to conclude hardly, and to give up all for gone, when it is not so. Secondly, In times of general apostasy, there is usually a remnant that keep their integrity-some, though but a few; all do not go one way. Thirdly, That when there is a remnant who keep their integrity in times of general apostasy it is God that reserves to himself that remnant. If he had left them to themselves, they had gone down the stream with the rest. It is his free and almighty grace that makes the difference between them and others.—Seven thousand: a competent number to bear their testimony against the idolatry of Israel, and yet, compared with the many thousands of Israel, a very small number, one of a city, and two of a tribe, like the grape-gleanings of the vintage. Christ’s flock is but a little flock; and yet, when they come all together at last, they will be a great and innumerable multitude, Rev. 7:9 . Now the description of this remnant is that they had not bowed the knee to the image of Baal, which was then the reigning sin of Israel. In court, city, and country, Baal had the ascendant; and the generality of people, more or less, paid their respect to Baal. The best evidence of integrity is a freedom from the present prevailing corruptions of the times and places that we live in, to swim against the stream when it is strong. Those God will own for his faithful witnesses that are bold in bearing their testimony to the present truth, 2 Pt. 1:12 . This is thank-worthy, not to bow to Baal when every body bows. Sober singularity is commonly the badge of true sincerity. [3.] The application of this instance to the case in hand: Even so at this present time, v. 5endash 7. God’s methods of dispensation towards his church are as they used to be. As it has been, so it is. In Elijah’s time there was a remnant, and so there is now. If then there was a remnant left under the Old Testament, when the displays of grace were less clear and the pourings out of the Spirit less plentiful, much more now under the gospel, when the grace of God, which bringeth salvation, appears more illustrious.—A remnant, a few of many, a remnant of believing Jews when the rest were obstinate in their unbelief. This is called a remnant according to the election of grace; they are such as were chosen from eternity in the counsels of divine love to be vessels of grace and glory. Whom he did predestinate those he called. If the difference between them and others be made purely by the grace of God, as certainly it is (I have reserved them, saith he, to myself), then it must needs be according to the election; for we are sure that whatever God does he does it according to the counsel of his own will. Now concerning this remnant we may observe, First, Whence it takes its rise, from the free grace of God (v. 6), that grace which excludes works. The eternal election, in which the difference between some and others is first founded, is purely of grace, free grace; not for the sake of works done or foreseen; if so, it would not be grace. Gratia non est ullo modo gratia, si non sit omni modo gratuita—It is not grace, properly so called, if it be not perfectly free. Election is purely according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph. 1:5 . Paul’s heart was so full of the freeness of God’s grace that in the midst of his discourse he turns aside, as it were, to make this remark, If of grace, then not of works. And some observe that faith itself, which in the matter of justification if opposed to works, is here included in them; for faith has a peculiar fitness to receive the free grace of God for our justification, but not to receive that grace for our election. Secondly, What it obtains: that which Israel, that is, the body of that people, in van sought for (v. 7): Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for, that is, justification, and acceptance with God (see ch. 9:31 ), but the election have obtained it. In them the promise of God has its accomplishment, and God’s ancient kindness for that people is remembered. He calls the remnant of believers, not the elect, but the election, to show that the sole foundation of all their hopes and happiness is laid in election. They were the persons whom God had in his eye in the counsels of his love; they are the election; they are God’s choice. Such was the favour of God to the chosen remnant. But,2. The rest were blinded, v. 7. Some are chosen and called, and the call is made effectual. But others are left to perish in their unbelief; nay, they are made worse by that which should have made them better. The gospel, which to those that believed was the savour of life unto life, to the unbelieving was the savour of death unto death. The same sun softens wax and hardens clay. Good old Simeon foresaw that the child Jesus was set for the fall, as well as for the rising again, of many in Israel, Lu. 2:34 .—Were blinded; eporothesanthey were hardened; so some. They were seared, and made brawny and insensible. They could neither see the light, nor feel the touch, of gospel grace. Blindness and hardness are expressive of the same senselessness and stupidity of spirit. They shut their eyes, and would not see; this was their sin: and then God, in a way of righteous judgment, blinded their eyes, that they could not see; this was their punishment. This seemed harsh doctrine: to qualify it, therefore, he vouches two witnesses out of the Old Testament, who speak of such a thing.(1.) Isaiah, who spoke of such a judgment in his day, ch. 29:10 ; 6:9. The spirit of slumber, that is, an indisposedness to mind either their duty or interest. They are under the power of a prevailing unconcernedness, like people that are slumbering and sleeping; not affected with any thing that is said or done. They were resolved to continue as they were, and would not stir. The following words explain what is meant by the spirit of slumber: Eyes, that they should not see, and ears, that they should not hear. They had the faculties, but in the things that belonged to their peace they had not the use of those faculties; they were quite infatuated, they saw Christ, but they did not believe in him; they heard his word, but they did not receive it; and so both their hearing and their seeing were in vain. It was all one as if they had neither seen nor heard. Of all judgments spiritual judgments are the sorest, and most to be dreaded, though they make the least noise.—Unto this day. Ever since Esaias prophesied, this hardening work has been in the doing; some among them have been blind and senseless. Or, rather, ever since the first preaching of the gospel: though they have had the most convincing evidences that could be of the truth of it, the most powerful preaching, the fairest offers, the clearest calls from Christ himself, and from his apostles, yet to this day they are blinded. It is still true concerning multitudes of them, even to this day in which we live; they are hardened and blinded, the obstinacy and unbelief go by succession from generation to generation, according to their own fearful imprecation, which entailed the curse: His blood be upon us and upon our children. (2.) David (v. 9, v. 10), quoted from Ps. 69:22, Ps. 69:23 , where David having in the Spirit foretold the sufferings of Christ from his own people the Jews, particularly that of their giving him vinegar to drink (v. 21, which was literally fulfilled, Mt. 27:48 ), an expression of the greatest contempt and malice that could be, in the next words, under the form of an imprecation, he foretels the dreadful judgments of God upon them for it: Let their table become a snare, which the apostle here applies to the present blindness of the Jews, and the offence they took at the gospel, which increased their hardness. This teaches us how to understand other prayers of David against his enemies; they are to be looked upon as prophetic of the judgments of God upon the public and obstinate enemies of Christ and his kingdom. His prayer that it might be so was a prophecy that it should be so, and not the private expression of his own angry resentments. It was likewise intended to justify God, and to clear his righteousness in such judgments.
View all the rest of this commentary here>
 
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The Gryphon

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I don't want to be quoted entire bible verses, I want to have an actual conversation. You have characterised an early Christian Saint in such a way as to accomplish what exactly? That by his distinguishing of Jews from Christians that he is akin to what exactly? That he was what exactly? How does this back up your claim of Christian anti-semitism being exactly like Nazi-Antisemitism?

What do you do with Jewish writers like Melito of Sardis? He speaks of the Jews quite negatively, does he hate them? What do you do when the New Testamaent itself says that the Jews present said the blood of Christ was on their hands and on their children? Is anything critical of Judaism evidence of antisemitism?

What exactly are you arguing. Don't quote and paste, give me your own perspective.

I am quite aware of anti-Christian Jewish writers and their works both against the Christian faith and blaspheming Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ). I take the position that Jesus took himself; that he came first to the Jews. Jews established His Church, were his Apostles, and led the Church from its beginning. There has always been those that have believed in the Messiah and were not part of "Christian Denominations". You man view said person (mentioned above in a post) as a Saint however I can list many many examples of such "Church" leaders that did in fact call for and participate in the death of Jewish, men women and children such as being burned alive; not just differentiated by an edict or a sermon. I was at first a "History major." If you want I can list them with the references where the material can be found and checked. Look it is historical record embarrassing as it is for the Christian Church of which I am a part. Popes, Bishops, Preachers, evangelists, and others in leadership within various Denominations of the Christian Faith have been responsible for events that were not Christ like even into modern times. We should be the first ones to call out when evil occurs not cover it up or try to hide it. You are twisting my words for exactly what reason? I say to make amends we as Christians have to be HONEST about Church history and wrongs that have occurred including Priests that sexually abuse children and then are protected and moved where they re-offend rather than being held accountable for their crimes against children. I mean if you want to we can go case by case where Church Leaders order Jews murdered, their property seized by the Church, etc. etc.. I thought the Modern Christian Church had moved past that but perhaps I am wrong. It is my understanding this forum does not want us to go over bloody detail by bloody detail. I have the history books where it is all recorded if you personally contact me and I can give you the references if you do not believe me.

I am saying we as Christians need to be more Christ like and try to heal the wounds those within the "Church" have caused healed. I fail to see how we do that if we do not at least acknowledge the events even happened. I am not going to argue with you as everything is recorded history as I have stated. If you are offended by the history well so am I. I for one am trying to mend fences with Jews. We are to be a light to the world including Jews unfortunately too much of Christian history has not been a light but a curse.

Christian Persecution of Jews over the Centuries: Introduction - view the article here> Christian Persecution of Jews over the Centuries: Introduction — United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I am quite aware of anti-Christian Jewish writers and their works both against the Christian faith and blaspheming Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ). I take the position that Jesus took himself; that he came first to the Jews. Jews established His Church, were his Apostles, and led the Church from its beginning. There has always been those that have believed in the Messiah and were not part of "Christian Denominations". You man view said person as a Saint however I can list many many examples of such "Church" leaders that did in fact call for and participate in the death of Jewish, men women and children such as being burned alive; not just differentiated by an edict or a sermon. I was at first a "History major." If you want can list them with the references where the material can be found and checked. Look it is historical record embarrassing as it is for the Christian Church of which I am a part. Popes, Bishops, Preachers, evangelists, and others in leadership within various Denominations of the Christian Faith have been responsible for events that were not Christ like even into modern times. We should be the first ones to call out when evil occurs not cover it up or try to hide it. You are twisting my words for exactly what reason? I say to make amends we as Christians have to be HONEST about Church history and wrongs that have occurred including Priests that sexually abuse children and then are protected and moved where they re-offend rather than being held accountable for their crimes against children. I mean if you want to we can go case by case where Church Leaders order Jews murdered, their property seized by the Church, etc. etc.. I thought the Modern Christian Church had moved past that but perhaps I am wrong. It is my understanding this forum does not want us to go over bloody detail by bloody detail. I have the history books were it is all recorded if you personally contact me and I can give you the references if you do not believe me.

I am saying we as Christians need to be more Christ like and try to heal the wounds those within the "Church" have caused healed. I fail to see how we do that if we do not at least acknowledge the events even happened.

Christian Persecution of Jews over the Centuries: Introduction - view the article here> Christian Persecution of Jews over the Centuries: Introduction — United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

So what did Ignatius do that was particularly egregious to you? I don't recall him ever telling the Churches he wrote to to kill all Jews.

If you disagree with him on the basis of your messianic beliefs (I assume you are a Messianic or are more aligned with that movement than historic Christianity) then that's another topic entirely.

I admitted from the outset of this conversation there has been a lot of bad done to the Jews by Christians. My only qualification was that it was not as bad as the type of horrors we saw committed by the Germans during WW2. So bringing up examples of basic persecution of the Jews is not enough.

Did Christians experiment on the Jews in order to test the limits of the human body? Did we ever round them into camps, systematically seek to exterminate the entire race? You might argue that the Deutsche Christian movement was one such example of Christian persecution inline with the Nazis, the only problem is that it was an attempt to redefine Christianity on the basis of what the state wanted rather than a genuine theological appeal. The confessing Church of Germany, with men like Bonhoeffer were opposed to the German Christians movement.

So, clarify.
 
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The Gryphon

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As I said the forum says we are not to get into arguments. If you want that information look it up as it is not secret and open to all. A simple internet search will reveal it all to you if you really want to know.
 
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section9+1

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Wrong things have happened, but most of this stuff is old history. I am not responsible for anything that happened without me. I have no guilt. I have no association with it. If you want guilt then by all means you can have all you want. I accept none. Christianity keeps getting nuttier every year.
 
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Wrong things have happened, but most of this stuff is old history. I am not responsible for anything that happened without me. I have no guilt. I have no association with it. If you want guilt then by all means you can have all you want. I accept none. Christianity keeps getting nuttier every year.

No one is saying you have any guilt and to many Jews it is NOT old history it is their families lives and deaths. If you are a Christian are you not commissioned to reach the lost in this world? One has to reach people where they are. When those in power within some of the "Christian Churches" do not follow Jesus' own teachings or the basic moral legal codes of society what does that do to the Faith's credibility before the LOST? I have spoken to people within many denominations whose loyalty is to their religiosity (their Denomination) before it is to G_d's word. Do people not see that is a violation of the 1st. Commandment as they are putting their denomination before G_d? When anyone in any position in a denomination is allowed to molest children and they are "counseled" and moved where they re-offend does no one see the evil in that? I dare say if it were your family members who had suffered persecution over centuries you might have a somewhat different opinion on things. One evil does not cancel out another evil and pointing to another's worse behavior does not justify your own. Are we not to be a "LIGHT" unto the world? When asked for bread are we to give out a serpent?
 
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